Who stays?...who goes??

[GGajewski18]

45 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I said this was a thought experiment, nothing more. The guys above with the possible exception of L. Garcia are all flat out bad, just awful. They need to be flushed out of the system along with all the other deadwood in a perfect situation, this is not a perfect situation of course but those guys have all had chances and either failed miserably or can't stay healthy which is just as bad.

Covey is not terrible.  Definitely not a starter, but I think he can be that guy in the bullpen that can eat a couple innings.  

Aaron Bummer has a 2.51 FIP while striking out 10 per 9 innings.  Lefty with 5 years of control, so you're wrong.

Jose Ruiz has good stuff, you can't base anything off of 4 innings of work lol.  Ludacris.  

 

[ChiSox59]

53 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I said this was a thought experiment, nothing more. The guys above with the possible exception of L. Garcia are all flat out bad, just awful. They need to be flushed out of the system along with all the other deadwood in a perfect situation, this is not a perfect situation of course but those guys have all had chances and either failed miserably or can't stay healthy which is just as bad.

You're just flat out wrong here.  There are a few guys in that list that should, and will be, "flushed".  The vast majority are not.  

[Lip Man 1]

5 hours ago, GGajewski18 said:

Covey is not terrible.  Definitely not a starter, but I think he can be that guy in the bullpen that can eat a couple innings.  

Aaron Bummer has a 2.51 FIP while striking out 10 per 9 innings.  Lefty with 5 years of control, so you're wrong.

Jose Ruiz has good stuff, you can't base anything off of 4 innings of work lol.  Ludacris.  

 

How many inherited runners did Bummer allow to score?

[southsider2k5]

9 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

How many inherited runners did Bummer allow to score?

You are ready to release a second year lefty with those kind of peripherals over his IR%? Yikes.

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

You are ready to release a second year lefty with those kind of peripherals over his IR%? Yikes.

SS: All I can go by is what I see. I don't think he's that good. Just my opinion. Maybe he gets better but so far not that impressive. Won't matter next year, may not matter in two years but I don't think you'll see this guy around for very long.

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

SS: All I can go by is what I see. I don't think he's that good. Just my opinion. Maybe he gets better but so far not that impressive. Won't matter next year, may not matter in two years but I don't think you'll see this guy around for very long.

Reading his numbers, he was a pretty effective minimum wage lefty who improved in pretty much every stat this year (walks down, K's up, HR rate down) except for one (H9), and was two full runs different between ERA and FIP, meaning his defense really hurt him badly.  The numbers don't agree with your eye test.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/1/2018 at 9:19 AM, Lip Man 1 said:

Really getting bored and frustrated here in the hospital so I thought this may be a nice way to pass some time.

I do this every year as a thought experiment just to get opinions. Naturally this has little connection with reality since roster construction is so interdependent on things like health, free agent signings and so forth.

But looking at the current 40 man roster with each player taken in a vacuum unrelated to other players who would you like to see just flat out gone from this rag tag bunch?

Here would be my selections (and the sheer number of them says all you need to know about the current overall talent)

Bummer
Covey
Farquhar
Fulmer
Gomez
Gonzales
Jones
Minaya
Ruiz
Santiago
Scahill
Shields
Vieira
Castillo
Cordell
A. Garcia
L. Garcia
LaMarre
Tilson

Obviously the Sox aren't probably going to cut half of these retreads, stiffs and deadbeats but in a perfect world, every single one of them would be out the door for me for various reasons...no talent, can't stay healthy, shows little hope of getting better, age etc.

I frankly don't care who goes and who stays. I am not worried nor do I care if anyone becomes better with another team. The Brewers lost Khris Davis and Scooter Gennett and look where they are. The A's and Tampa Bay make a ton of trades and somehow they survive and even strive.

Just show some moxie or balls or w/e you want to call it and flip them all . I don't care how crowded it gets at AA/AAAA .Get some defenders , see if the Twins will deal Byron Buxton. The Sox stink at their 2 highest levels. Trade Castillo, Narvaez, Smith,Palka, Davidson, Abreu, Rodon, Avi Engel, Delmonico, Cordell, Tilson ,Sanchez ,Leury and whoever from AAA. ( Guererro , Stephens, Adams Danish) Trade the 24-27 yr olds for 22-24 yr olds. Don't try to win trades when you trade trash just focus on decent defenders who might surprise you with the bat  or guys who make better contact. Trade quantity for quality. Maybe someone will be dumb enough to trade 1 good player for 3 of our bums  if they want some depth.

Edited October 2, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[GreenSox]

On 10/1/2018 at 11:19 AM, Lip Man 1 said:

Obviously the Sox aren't probably going to cut half of these retreads, stiffs and deadbeats but in a perfect world, every single one of them would be out the door for me for various reasons...no talent, can't stay healthy, shows little hope of getting better, age etc.

Using the Lip list:
Keep Bummer, Covey, Fulmer (yes, I know), Ruiz,  Castillo, A Garcia, L Garcia
Dump Farquhar, Gomez, LaMarre, Tilson, Shields, Scahill, Minaya
The rest can go either way, but do not protect if it leaves a decent youngster unprotected. 

Hope you feel better, Lip.

Edited October 2, 2018 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

On 10/3/2018 at 4:03 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I frankly don't care who goes and who stays. I am not worried nor do I care if anyone becomes better with another team. The Brewers lost Khris Davis and Scooter Gennett and look where they are. The A's and Tampa Bay make a ton of trades and somehow they survive and even strive.

Just show some moxie or balls or w/e you want to call it and flip them all . I don't care how crowded it gets at AA/AAAA .Get some defenders , see if the Twins will deal Byron Buxton. The Sox stink at their 2 highest levels. Trade Castillo, Narvaez, Smith,Palka, Davidson, Abreu, Rodon, Avi Engel, Delmonico, Cordell, Tilson ,Sanchez ,Leury and whoever from AAA. ( Guererro , Stephens, Adams Danish) Trade the 24-27 yr olds for 22-24 yr olds. Don't try to win trades when you trade trash just focus on decent defenders who might surprise you with the bat  or guys who make better contact. Trade quantity for quality. Maybe someone will be dumb enough to trade 1 good player for 3 of our bums  if they want some depth.

The Astros traded or let go:

JD Martinez, Vincente Velasquez (Phils), Domingo Santana, Kiki Hernandez (Dodgers), Preston Tucker, Delino DeShields, Jr., Robbie Grossman, Chris Johnson, Singleton, Jonathan Villar, etc.   That’s not even counting the Cole and Verlander deals.

That’s a LOT more talent than the White Sox produced between Sale/Q and this current rebuild’s class of talent (mostly imported via four trades.)

The difference is they had 3-4X more that talent coming in, even if you account for the Appel over Bryant debacle and then selecting Brady Aiken fiasco.

When you’re methodical about talent evaluation, you can make ten mistakes and still not miss a beat.  Whereas we have one young pitcher go down and we’re moving the timetable back at least a year.

Edited October 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The Astros traded or let go:

JD Martinez, Vincente Velasquez (Phils), Kiki Hernandez (Dodgers), Preston Tucker, Delino DeShields, Jr., Robbie Grossman, Chris Johnson, Singleton, Jonathan Villar, etc.   That’s not even counting the Cole and Verlander deals.

That’s a LOT more talent than the White Sox produced between Sale/Q and this current rebuild’s class of talent (mostly imported via four trades.)

The difference is they had 3-4X more that talent coming in, even if you account for the Appel over Bryant debacle and then selecting Brady Aiken fiasco.

When you’re methodical about talent evaluation, you can make ten mistakes and still not miss a beat.  Whereas we have one young pitcher go down and we’re moving the timetable back at least a year.

Yep and I already broke down the Cubs and Astro's draft picks from 2011-2015 in the 99 losses or fewer goal thread.. Both teams produced a lot of good to great players from the draft in those years. Still to be determined but doesn't look we we will see the same type of results from the draft. I have no idea about talent from international youngsters but with Aldolfo and Roberts  we'll have to see if they can stay healthy and start developing. Altuve came very cheaply to the Astro's that way.

Even with the Aiken situation the Astro's turned that into Bregman so really they just traded themselves a #1 for a # 2 in the next draft and took another great position player.

With Correa they passed on Buxton when Correa agreed to go under slot and then used the saved money  to pick McCullers as a supplemental 1st rounder.

Anyway that's all in this article about how they put together their WS winning team. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/world-series-2017-how-the-al-champion-houston-astros-built-their-roster/

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yep and I already broke down the Cubs and Astro's draft picks from 2011-2015 in the 99 losses or fewer goal thread.. Both teams produced a lot of good to great players from the draft in those years. Still to be determined but doesn't look we we will see the same type of results from the draft. I have no idea about talent from international youngsters but with Aldolfo and Roberts  we'll have to see if they can stay healthy and start developing. Altuve came very cheaply to the Astro's that way.

Even with the Aiken situation the Astro's turned that into Bregman so really they just traded themselves a #1 for a # 2 in the next draft and took another great position player.

With Correa they passed on Buxton when Correa agreed to go under slot and then used the saved money  to pick McCullers as a supplemental 1st rounder.

Anyway that's all in this article about how they put together their WS winning team. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/world-series-2017-how-the-al-champion-houston-astros-built-their-roster/

And Kyle Tucker in the same draft, who would be the #2 prospect in the Sox system...

[Lip Man 1]

On 10/2/2018 at 3:36 PM, GreenSox said:

Using the Lip list:
Keep Bummer, Covey, Fulmer (yes, I know), Ruiz,  Castillo, A Garcia, L Garcia
Dump Farquhar, Gomez, LaMarre, Tilson, Shields, Scahill, Minaya
The rest can go either way, but do not protect if it leaves a decent youngster unprotected. 

Hope you feel better, Lip.

Got out of the hospital yesterday. Have lost 25 pounds but am starting to feel better at least. Should be able to resume my broadcasting duties soon.

[Eminor3rd]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:47 PM, SleepySoxFAN said:

I am former member of the previous Sox forum and have watched from afar at this debacle of a season.  At the very least I thought the team could avoid a 100 loss season but they didn't and I would like to see the entire coaching staff released-especially the manager.  If they couldn't inspire one more win during the last week they should be the first to go-talk about a defeatist mentality-start for scratch! 

What difference would one more win make? Would 99 losses really be any better than 100?

Dont be fooled by arbitrary cutoff points as milestones. Whatever problems you have with the team, they wouldn’t be any different with 97 losses or 105 losses. 

[southsider2k5]

34 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

What difference would one more win make? Would 99 losses really be any better than 100?

Dont be fooled by arbitrary cutoff points as milestones. Whatever problems you have with the team, they wouldn’t be any different with 97 losses or 105 losses. 

Not to mention a few more wins puts us picking worse, maybe even significantly so.

[oldsox]

pulling for losses has got to stop.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

pulling for losses has got to stop.

At this stage, I am pulling for talent. It is stupid to think that picking 7th is better than 3rd when you are talking about 95 losses versus 100. I will worry about wins when the team is competitive again. 

[Eminor3rd]

16 hours ago, oldsox said:

pulling for losses has got to stop.

Refusing to be enraged by pointless milestones is not the same thing as “pulling for losses.” We want the process to continue, we want to stay the course so that we can be good as soon as possible and for as long as possible. 

[Thad Bosley]

On 10/6/2018 at 12:25 AM, southsider2k5 said:

At this stage, I am pulling for talent. It is stupid to think that picking 7th is better than 3rd when you are talking about 95 losses versus 100. I will worry about wins when the team is competitive again. 

Frank Thomas was drafted 7th; Carlos Rodon, 3rd.  

[Sleepy Harold]

30 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Frank Thomas was drafted 7th; Carlos Rodon, 3rd.  

That fact does not invalidate the original statement.  I'm sure we could all go through drafts and cherry pick specific examples of one being better than the other until the cows come home, but the fact remains that picking 3rd in the draft now is more beneficial than picking 7th, thinking otherwise is silly...What you do with the pick is another story. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Sleepy Harold

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Frank Thomas was drafted 7th; Carlos Rodon, 3rd.  

And Michael Jordan was picked third. Any other irrelevant non sequiturs you want to waste?

[glangon]

My twopence worth.

Bummer - Keep, I reckon his numbers mean he should be given another shot in the pen.
Covey - Keep, in the pen though on a long reliever role. He seemed to be best at that
Farquhar - Keep - Minimum contract. He'll remain on the 60 day DL until he either retires or is ready to come back, then he'll go through rehab. He'll be kept due to the good news story in the press.
Fulmer - Keep, hopefully a role in the pen will rejuvenate him.
Gomez - Gone, he wasn't great. Hitters hitting closer to .300 against him.
Gonzales - Gone. He wasn't great before he went on the DL
Jones - Keep - More expensive to get rid of and his numbers have been decent, if he could only shake the injury issues
Minaya - Keep, hitter hitting .220 against him and he has more strikeouts than walks. Could be a vital piece in the pen
Ruiz - Gone - an pick up that didn't shine. Space needed for free agent signings and rule 5 eligibles
Santiago - Gone - I can't see what role we have for him. Assuming Covey has the long relief role and we are bringing talent through or signing free agents. I think he will be gone to make way for the next generation.
Scahill - Gone - Another free agent pick up who didn't flatter.
Shields - Gone - As much as he's done well in mentoring the kids, they will be looking to upgrade on No Game James.
Vieira - Gone - As much as I love watching this kid pitch, he got hit around, a lot. We have better needing protected
Castillo - Gone - Narvaez and Smith have turned into an effective pair, both hitting well. Dump the cheat.
Cordell - Gone - He had 4 hits in 40 plate appearances, that is Adam Dunn bad.
A. Garcia - Gone - This year was down to injury. We saw the kind of year he could have but with Eloy coming up, we need to create some space in the outfield. Although dumping Delmonica would one answer to that.
L. Garcia - Keep - The guy is a super utility player who can cover all positions. If we are going to platoon Davidson and Palka at DH, then having a guy like this on the bench is a must, add in that he has speed and hit .274 last year.
LaMarre - Keep - The guy hit .303 this year for us. I'd love to see what he does over a full season.
Tilson - Gone - This one was a tough one. He hit .264 but with no power. I reckon that next year our outfield will consist of Eloy in LF (but not for a few weeks, Engel in CF, La Marre in RF). Delmonica will stay on the roster and get released when Eloy comes up. Palka as DH and Leury as back up and pinch runner. I just don't see the space for Tilson.

That's 11 players dumped off the 40 man to protect players and bring in free agents. It could be 12 if we dump Delmonica.

It also gives us the option to dump Leury if he struggles and Farquhar if he struggles on his return from injury, although I suspect Danny may end up retiring.  

[ChiSox59]

10 hours ago, glangon said:

My twopence worth.

Bummer - Keep, I reckon his numbers mean he should be given another shot in the pen.
Covey - Keep, in the pen though on a long reliever role. He seemed to be best at that
Farquhar - Keep - Minimum contract. He'll remain on the 60 day DL until he either retires or is ready to come back, then he'll go through rehab. He'll be kept due to the good news story in the press.
Fulmer - Keep, hopefully a role in the pen will rejuvenate him.
Gomez - Gone, he wasn't great. Hitters hitting closer to .300 against him.
Gonzales - Gone. He wasn't great before he went on the DL
Jones - Keep - More expensive to get rid of and his numbers have been decent, if he could only shake the injury issues
Minaya - Keep, hitter hitting .220 against him and he has more strikeouts than walks. Could be a vital piece in the pen
Ruiz - Gone - an pick up that didn't shine. Space needed for free agent signings and rule 5 eligibles
Santiago - Gone - I can't see what role we have for him. Assuming Covey has the long relief role and we are bringing talent through or signing free agents. I think he will be gone to make way for the next generation.
Scahill - Gone - Another free agent pick up who didn't flatter.
Shields - Gone - As much as he's done well in mentoring the kids, they will be looking to upgrade on No Game James.
Vieira - Gone - As much as I love watching this kid pitch, he got hit around, a lot. We have better needing protected
Castillo - Gone - Narvaez and Smith have turned into an effective pair, both hitting well. Dump the cheat.
Cordell - Gone - He had 4 hits in 40 plate appearances, that is Adam Dunn bad.
A. Garcia - Gone - This year was down to injury. We saw the kind of year he could have but with Eloy coming up, we need to create some space in the outfield. Although dumping Delmonica would one answer to that.
L. Garcia - Keep - The guy is a super utility player who can cover all positions. If we are going to platoon Davidson and Palka at DH, then having a guy like this on the bench is a must, add in that he has speed and hit .274 last year.
LaMarre - Keep - The guy hit .303 this year for us. I'd love to see what he does over a full season.
Tilson - Gone - This one was a tough one. He hit .264 but with no power. I reckon that next year our outfield will consist of Eloy in LF (but not for a few weeks, Engel in CF, La Marre in RF). Delmonica will stay on the roster and get released when Eloy comes up. Palka as DH and Leury as back up and pinch runner. I just don't see the space for Tilson.

That's 11 players dumped off the 40 man to protect players and bring in free agents. It could be 12 if we dump Delmonica.

It also gives us the option to dump Leury if he struggles and Farquhar if he struggles on his return from injury, although I suspect Danny may end up retiring.  

There is basically a 0% chance that Ruiz and Vieria are "gone".  They may not be with the Sox to start 2018, but barring trade, will most definitely be in the organization as both were just added to the 40 man this year and have plenty of options.  Cordell and Tilson are borderline and could go either way. 

I'd be shocked if LaMarre is in the organization come the Winter Meetings.  This guy is not a long term piece, and while he was decent with the Sox this year, there is no reason to keep him around IMO.  

Also, DelmonicO has at least 1 option left, so he definitely isn't getting "released".  

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is basically a 0% chance that Ruiz and Vieria are "gone".  They may not be with the Sox to start 2018, but barring trade, will most definitely be in the organization as both were just added to the 40 man this year and have plenty of options.  Cordell and Tilson are borderline and could go either way. 

I'd be shocked if LaMarre is in the organization come the Winter Meetings.  This guy is not a long term piece, and while he was decent with the Sox this year, there is no reason to keep him around IMO.  

Also, DelmonicO has at least 1 option left, so he definitely isn't getting "released".  

Yeah, the Sox aren't giving away high potential bullpen arms.

[Balta1701]

Won't Fulmer be out of options this year?

[ChiSox59]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Won't Fulmer be out of options this year?

Not sure, interesting question.