Sox and analytics

[BamaDoc]

There is a good article at the Athletic on the Yankees transformation to a heavy analytic based organization.  It was an interesting read.  They had a table indicating the size of each teams departments, which they admitted was hard to do as some teams don't release that info or account for people differently.  (They claimed two sources though on each team). From other articles I have seen thru the year about players getting and adopting analytics, I thought the Sox were doing well in embracing the changes/technology.  The Yankees have a staff of twenty tying the Dodgers for the most in baseball.  The White Sox were dead last with two.  I understand quantity doesn't equal quality etc but I found this concerning.  Any staff or posters with more knowledge or the ability to ask questions of Hahn etc?  I do not want to jump to the traditional Sox being cheap answer.  The role of analytics is changing the game dramatically and you can either lead or be left behind.  At a time of rebuilding and as a lower overall spending team, I would hate to not take advantage of everything out there.

[caulfield12]

“One team that seems to revel in its reputation as stat-agnostic is the Chicago White Sox. That stems in part from the style of Sox executive VP Kenny Williams, who served as general manager from 2000 to 2012 and has expressed his preference for old-school ways over sabermetrics. On the other hand, Rick Hahn, promoted to GM in 2012, takes a friendlier view of analytics.

The man at the center of the White Sox's analytics operation is Dan Fabian, who describes himself as a "stathead" and is well-respected within the industry (but just pretty good at baseball trivia). He has overseen the development of the White Sox Scouting Portal and has recently brought on Dan Strittmatter, a former math major at Notre Dame, to coordinate baseball information.

But in contrast to the Cubs across town, led by Theo Epstein and new manager Joe Maddon, the White Sox are stuck in neutral, with no signs they're doing anything innovative.”

 

White Sox are in the “one foot in category,” so not anywhere near the forefront...both those guys are from ND as well, but they’ve never gone outside the box for NASA,  Wall Street quants, Cal Tech, MIT types.  Haber is put in this category due to his educational background, but more of a negotiations/business guy than a pure analyst type.

Not surprisingly, six out of the ten playoff teams are “true believers,” two more that just missed and then the Pirates, who were at the forefront of the pitch framing (Wilson and Cervelli) movement and pitching to contact as well as massive defensive shifting.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12331388/the-great-analytics-rankings?_escaped_fragment_=mlb

Edited October 3, 2018 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

“One team that seems to revel in its reputation as stat-agnostic is the Chicago White Sox. That stems in part from the style of Sox executive VP Kenny Williams, who served as general manager from 2000 to 2012 and has expressed his preference for old-school ways over sabermetrics. On the other hand, Rick Hahn, promoted to GM in 2012, takes a friendlier view of analytics.

The man at the center of the White Sox's analytics operation is Dan Fabian, who describes himself as a "stathead" and is well-respected within the industry (but just pretty good at baseball trivia). He has overseen the development of the White Sox Scouting Portal and has recently brought on Dan Strittmatter, a former math major at Notre Dame, to coordinate baseball information.

But in contrast to the Cubs across town, led by Theo Epstein and new manager Joe Maddon, the White Sox are stuck in neutral, with no signs they're doing anything innovative.”

 

White Sox are in the “one foot in category,” so not anywhere near the forefront...both those guys are from ND as well, but they’ve never gone outside the box for NASA,  Wall Street quants, Cal Tech, MIT types.  Haber is put in this category due to his educational background, but more of a negotiations/business guy than a pure analyst type.

Not surprisingly, six out of the ten playoff teams are “true believers,” two more that just missed and then the Pirates, who were at the forefront of the pitch framing (Wilson and Cervelli) movement and pitching to contact as well as massive defensive shifting.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12331388/the-great-analytics-rankings?_escaped_fragment_=mlb

dude that article is 3 years old.   Things have changed

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

I was gonna say... the Sox are teaching spin rate to their minor league pitchers to make their stuff more effective. A last place, stat heavy team wouldn’t be doing that.

[southsider2k5]

38 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I was gonna say... the Sox are teaching spin rate to their minor league pitchers to make their stuff more effective. A last place, stat heavy team wouldn’t be doing that.

And to top it off, the Sox NEVER advertise their inner workings.  They don't put that kind of stuff out there.

[Eminor3rd]

Also, there are many that believe Jake Burger (and Zach Collins, to a lesser extent) was a pure Trackman exit velo pick. Considering how bad the body and the defense are, it’s hard to believe old scouts were clamoring for him. 

[bmags]

47 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Also, there are many that believe Jake Burger (and Zach Collins, to a lesser extent) was a pure Trackman exit velo pick. Considering how bad the body and the defense are, it’s hard to believe old scouts were clamoring for him. 

Right, and team usa has trackman too I think. The influence of team usa picks and colleges with trackman definitely seems to indicate sox are drafting with a heavy eye on analytics.

[caulfield12]

Yet Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Kopech, Cease and Madrigal all appear to be traditional scouts’ dream guys...either in raw talent or baseball aptitude.

[Eminor3rd]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Yet Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Kopech, Cease and Madrigal all appear to be traditional scouts’ dream guys...either in raw talent or baseball aptitude.

Right, because it isn’t possible to agree on a player. Everything has to be polar. 

Scouts versus stats! Us versus them!

Edited October 3, 2018 by Eminor3rd

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Right, because it isn’t possible to agree on a player. Everything has to be polar. 

Scouts versus stats! Us versus them!

Who are the guys who supposedly are analytics-based picks?

Call and Fisher, that’s all we heard about with them.  Steele Walker?  Burger?  Collins?  Dunning?

Guys like Beck, Adams and Hansen were supposed to be pure stuff guys.

It seems the only consistent philosophy is drafting high potential collegiate arms (most end up in the bullpen), but, for this to work...they’d have to remain healthy and they’d have to have a better record of success than other teams in extracting value, yet we haven’t had a season like that where inexperienced pitching surprised/overachieved since 2012.

 

[reiks12]

In Big Data Baseball I think theres a blurb in there about how the White Sox are adverse to analytics. That came out in 2014

[Balta1701]

So while everything here seems out of date...I do think that fitting with our conversation yesterday about Madrigal there could be a good talk about launch angle somewhere, as that's one of the things he would benefit to be working on. 

[reiks12]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So while everything here seems out of date...I do think that fitting with our conversation yesterday about Madrigal there could be a good talk about launch angle somewhere, as that's one of the things he would benefit to be working on. 

Right, I also feel we are good at shifts although I can't say for sure.

On the other hand we have Ricky putting on the bunt any chance he gets. 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Right, I also feel we are good at shifts although I can't say for sure.

On the other hand we have Ricky putting on the bunt any chance he gets. 

I think @southsider2k52k5 posted a tweet saying that the White Sox did what, the 2nd most overshifts in MLB or something along those lines just yesterday?

[caulfield12]

22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think @southsider2k52k5 posted a tweet saying that the White Sox did what, the 2nd most overshifts in MLB or something along those lines just yesterday?

To what level of effectiveness?

They might as well go with the Rays’ and A’s bullpen approach...at least that would be original, especially since relief pitching is supposed to be the strength of their drafting philosophy.

Experiment.  Do something, anything different.  Besides overbunting in a “runs are not at a premium” stadium.

[GreenSox]

7 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Also, there are many that believe Jake Burger (and Zach Collins, to a lesser extent) was a pure Trackman exit velo pick. Considering how bad the body and the defense are, it’s hard to believe old scouts were clamoring for him. 

I believe it. They get all geeked up about some system and follow it.  Very little nuance from this bunch. Rebuilding involves a lot of art as well.

[TaylorStSox]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

 

They might as well go with the Rays’ and A’s bullpen approach...at least that would be original, especially since relief pitching is supposed to be the strength of their drafting philosophy.

 

I read this line 3 times and I still can't make sense out of it. 

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I read this line 3 times and I still can't make sense out of it. 

How many games did the Rays go with relievers for 6+ innings this year, including starting relievers?

What did the A’s try to do tonight against the Yankees?

 

Since the White Sox only have two starters right now, and Rodon’s health down the stretch was questionable, at best...what do they have to lose, exactly?

See current AL Wild Card thread (at the end) if you still need further clarification.

Edited October 4, 2018 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

No one's draft strategy is to end up with only relief pitchers. Both the A's and Rays tried it because all of their decent starters got hurt.

[caulfield12]

Okay, after the first and second rounders, what one singular area stands out about Sox drafting the last 2-3 years?

It’s high upside collegiate arms, many of which will end up in the bullpen.  Or we’re also selecting a lot of pitchers who don’t end up making it as starters, like Nola/Wacha vs. Buehler vs. Fulmer.

[SCCWS]

5 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

No one's draft strategy is to end up with only relief pitchers. Both the A's and Rays tried it because all of their decent starters got hurt.

Or some of the decent starters were not decent. 

[bmags]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Okay, after the first and second rounders, what one singular area stands out about Sox drafting the last 2-3 years?

It’s high upside collegiate arms, many of which will end up in the bullpen.  Or we’re also selecting a lot of pitchers who don’t end up making it as starters, like Nola/Wacha vs. Buehler vs. Fulmer.

If you are making the argument the Sox aren’t using analytics effectively, make that argument. But stop making the argument Sox aren’t using analytics, and getting consistently proven wrong with examples (including your own) and then changing your argument as a counter. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

If you are making the argument the Sox aren’t using analytics effectively, make that argument. But stop making the argument Sox aren’t using analytics, and getting consistently proven wrong with examples (including your own) and then changing your argument as a counter. 

Where’s the proof that the White Sox are doing anything Interesting or remarkable?

The rebuild is riding on Moncada, Kopech, Anderson, Jimenez, Cease, Robert and Madrigal being studs.  How did they use analytics or non-traditional avenues to scout any of those guys?

The only positional player they’ve really been right on is Abreu in the last half-decade.  KW and Paddy are the ones who pursued him, how did analytics play a role?

Heck, they might have the most boring name for a proprietary database system in the history of the sport.

 

At any rate, for months and months, we’ve been hearing the strength of the system was high end collegiate pitching...and that many of these guys would end up in the bullpen.   But the results down the stretch were not exactly confidence boosting.

What is it that the White Sox actually do well, right now?   We have a pretty terrible defensive team...other than Anderson, Moncada (when focused), and Engel, who can’t hit.  We’ve got fielders who can’t hit and a bunch of hitters who can’t field, to many to name.  Our one seeming advantage is overall team speed and aggressiveness...but we also stopped stealing bases, and that philosophy runs counter to nearly every team in baseball (anyway) and also causes lots of injuries/wears down players to boot.  We have a bottom 5-10 manager and a bottom 5-10 front office.

The ONLY thing saving the White Sox is being in the worst division in baseball, with 3 rebuilding small market teams, and the Indians being small market, too.  If we were in either the AL West or AL East or all the teams played balanced schedules with top five advancing, this franchise would be in pretty serious trouble.

 

[GenericUserName]

So far as I can tell from this listing of all team personnel, there really are only 2 analytically focused people with a third who is somewhat focused on it.

Matt Koenig

Emily Blady

Devin Pickett

If this really is all that we have (and it does appear that way), that is really extremely disappointing to me. I understand having a balance between analytics and traditional means, but this isn't even anywhere near balance. 

Having a strong enough analytics staff to not only keep up with the game, but find advantages that others don't is how teams that don't have the resources of the Yankees and Red Sox are supposed to compete, yet we are even passed up by the Red Sox and Dombrowski who seems to be about as traditional in scouting and strategy as is acceptable in today's game. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by GenericUserName

[bmags]

54 minutes ago, GenericUserName said:

So far as I can tell from this listing of all team personnel, there really are only 2 analytically focused people with a third who is somewhat focused on it.

Matt Koenig

Emily Blady

Devin Pickett

If this really is all that we have (and it does appear that way), that is really extremely disappointing to me. I understand having a balance between analytics and traditional means, but this isn't even anywhere near balance. 

Having a strong enough analytics staff to not only keep up with the game, but find advantages that others don't is how teams that don't have the resources of the Yankees and Red Sox are supposed to compete, yet we are even passed up by the Red Sox and Dombrowski who seems to be about as traditional in scouting and strategy as is acceptable in today's game. 

This is a great point, and the big tell is the lack of baseball systems engineers. For context, here is the milwaukee brewers:

Senior Analyst, Baseball Research and Development Andrew Fox
Analyst - Baseball Research and Development Ethan Bein
Analyst - Sports Science Baseball Research and Development Inga Milo
Analyst - Baseball Operations August f**erstrom
Analytics Developer - Baseball Research and Development Josh Schaffer
Data Architect Matt Culhane
Architect - Baseball Systems Will Hudgins
Developer - Baseball Systems Chaning Ogden
Developer - Baseball Systems Dan Yang

 

Now we have examples of coaches such as zaleski pushing hard based on data to change the arsenals of our players. But when you hear ex scouts from progressive orgs come out they stress just how much better the info they all have is over what is available to public. Then they have their proprietary systems on top of that.