White Sox projected arb salaries

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

yeah, again, if that offer was something realistic, he would already have been gone when he had 2+ years of control left and during a career year.  He is going to be a free agent this time next year which already means that unless he is putting up superstar numbers, his value is low.  Let alone the fact that even at his best he was an all bat/bad RF, which is also not something teams want.

The system is loaded with high ceiling OFs, and if they all really do fail, we can always go back to free agency and find another Avi Garcia.  Matt Davidson put up a better offensive number than Avi did in '18. 

When you have a 26 year old having a career year in a rebuild again isn't that the point of a rebuild to let kids develop ? Maybe that's why he wasn't traded. We all know Hahn has shown patience in trades. Perhaps he gambled on back to back solid years from Avi hoping to get more in a trade when whatever was offered wasn't good enough.

If you rather play Delmonico and Cordell over Avi so be it but its just an exercise in futility when the talent is inferior to Avi. Even on a rebuilding team they don't have the talent to play full time. They will never get 550 Ab's. They will never hit .300 they will never make an AS team , they might not hit 15 HR's.

I just want to keep the more talented players that aren't that old with upside, I don't think that's very hard to understand when there's not a whole lot of talent to begin with in the OF.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

17 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

There's nobody in our system that will push Garcia out until mid 2020, at the earliest.

I just don't see the logic for holding onto Abreu at that amount (somebody has to put butts in the stands, but does he really do that at this point in his career?)...and then throwing away a much younger player who MIGHT conceivably still be a part of the future if he can put together another season like 2017.

Since he's apparently not attractive to anyone else, if he would be willing to sign for $30-45 million (guaranteed) for 2020-2022, they should at least consider it.  He's not going to find a place that he's MORE comfortable in the big leagues.

 

 

Having a hard time figuring out the $30-45M contract offer. I assume it's for Abreu ?

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

When you have a 26 year old having a career year in a rebuild again isn't that the point of a rebuild to let kids develop ? Maybe that's why he wasn't traded. We all know Hahn has shown patience in trades. Perhaps he gambled on back to back solid years from Avi hoping to get more in a trade when whatever was offered wasn't good enough.

If you rather play Delmonico and Cordell over Avi so be it but its just an exercise in futility when the talent is inferior to Avi. Even on a rebuilding team they don't have the talent to play full time. They will never get 550 Ab's. They will never hit .300 they will never make an AS team , they might not hit 15 HR's.

I just want to keep the more talented players that aren't that old with upside, I don't think that's very hard to understand when there's not a whole lot of talent to begin with in the OF.

The point is to get players who will be on your next playoff team.  Either through developing them directly or trading the guys who you have to get them.  I don't see Avi giving us either, especially with the group of OFs we have on the horizon.  Even if all of the OFs we have currently ready fail, then we move on to the Robert/Eloy/Gonzalez generation.  If those guys all fail, and somehow we are a near playoff team is that is only a RF away, we can still go back to free agency and find another OF.  This isn't Avi or nothing.  This isn't Avi or Cordell/Delmonico.  This is seeing if we have anything in this current group of OFs and adjusting accordingly.

[ChiSox59]

21 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The "younger guys" aren't here yet.  The pitching is starting to get here, but the position players are still a year or two away.

Anderson, Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, at least half the bullpen, and to a lesser extent Rodon, are all young guys that are going to be a part of the next core, and they're all in the big leagues and all at some point need to learn how to win games.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The point is to get players who will be on your next playoff team.  Either through developing them directly or trading the guys who you have to get them.  I don't see Avi giving us either, especially with the group of OFs we have on the horizon.  Even if all of the OFs we have currently ready fail, then we move on to the Robert/Eloy/Gonzalez generation.  If those guys all fail, and somehow we are a near playoff team is that is only a RF away, we can still go back to free agency and find another OF.  This isn't Avi or nothing.  This isn't Avi or Cordell/Delmonico.  This is seeing if we have anything in this current group of OFs and adjusting accordingly.

And Avi is in the current group.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And Avi is in the current group.

With his free agency status, not really.  He is in the group on the way out, and cheaply replaceable.

[ron883]

57 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The response of someone who can't back up what he says, just like with the Herm Schneider accusations, which is why you're attacking me now because I shot down your ridiculous assumptions then.

You are making the claim that they have absolutely no chance at signing Manny, despite having the money to do so. You are also making the claim that free agents go to contenders rather than for the money, despite historical evidence showing otherwise. Then you make ridiculous demands for evidence. You probably shouldn't make insane demands for evidence if you aren't willing to provide any evidence. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Having a hard time figuring out the $30-45M contract offer. I assume it's for Abreu ?

Nope, Avi...because holding onto Abreu for two more years is even more dubious.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

With his free agency status, not really.  He is in the group on the way out, and cheaply replaceable.

Not trying to fight my nemesis here, just saying I don't understand arguments in which most of us think a player is not all that great (Avi, though I do immensely like his game) yet the "free agent status" is seen as something worth discussing. Again ... why would anybody sign Avi to anything significant considering all the warts that have been pointed out by Sox fans on this board. Who is going to sign him to some great deal and why would they want him for 5 years, 100 million or something like that? I personally think a healthy Avi is worth 4 years 36 million. Let's pay him that (if our trainers think they can get him on the field).

BTW, folks. Feel free to welcome greg back. I can't believe nobody noticed I was gone a while or simply deems me not worthy of missing. GO SOX!

Edited October 12, 2018 by greg775

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

Not trying to fight my nemesis here, just saying I don't understand arguments in which most of us think a player is not all that great (Avi, though I do immensely like his game) yet the "free agent status" is seen as something worth discussing. Again ... why would anybody sign Avi to anything significant considering all the warts that have been pointed out by Sox fans on this board. Who is going to sign him to some great deal?

BTW, folks. Feel free to welcome greg back. I can't believe nobody noticed I was gone a while or simply deems me not worthy of missing. GO SOX!

You wouldn't notice since you've been gone, but some of have wondered where you went. We have definitely noticed you were gone.

[pcq]

Not that $8M is outrageous in MLB parlance but with Avi he either isn't ready to suit up or you are left to wonder if he is ready to contribute. They might flip him for a broken down bullpen piece in late July. Someone will later sign him to a three-year deal in return for one decent year.  Given our threadbare OF I suppose he remains as our RF filler. We might have the worst OF in MLB. We are at minimum short one good OF 3B and SP before pretending to compete. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Nope, Avi...because holding onto Abreu for two more years is even more dubious.

That kind of offer may not be necessary if he is non tendered and then the Sox resign him to less money after he doesn't get many other decent offers.

Let's say they give him $8M in arb this year and he has a break out year.Now the Sox are stuck with either a contract extension , trading him or letting him walk.

If they non tender him how many teams do you think give him a 2-4 year offer ? Maybe none. Non tender and offer him 3/$15-18 w/ an option for a 4th year at $10M. He might never break out again but if he does he's locked up for his most likely productive years and until the youngsters arrive.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 hours ago, Hot FiRe said:

You are making the claim that they have absolutely no chance at signing Manny, despite having the money to do so. You are also making the claim that free agents go to contenders rather than for the money, despite historical evidence showing otherwise. Then you make ridiculous demands for evidence. You probably shouldn't make insane demands for evidence if you aren't willing to provide any evidence. 

And you shouldn't say I'm historically incorrect without evidence to back it up.Simple as that. How can I be historically inaccurate if you can't prove otherwise? I have made quite a few posts on guys who have won a World Series then signed with non contenders and guys who have not won a World Series who have signed with contenders just as there are posters who have sited examples of others who have done the opposite. All that does is create arguments that go round and round.

I also think the Sox do have a chance to sign Machado but I don't think it's likely, pretty,much the same as most who post here. I won't be the only one eating crow if they succeed.

[caulfield12]

23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That kind of offer may not be necessary if he is non tendered and then the Sox resign him to less money after he doesn't get many other decent offers.

Let's say they give him $8M in arb this year and he has a break out year.Now the Sox are stuck with either a contract extension , trading him or letting him walk.

If they non tender him how many teams do you think give him a 2-4 year offer ? Maybe none. Non tender and offer him 3/$15-18 w/ an option for a 4th year at $10M. He might never break out again but if he does he's locked up for his most likely productive years and until the youngsters arrive.

I don’t think many agents would take that deal...they’d rather just cut a one year deal and go back into the market.  It’s like saying he would only expect to earn $7-10 million combined (2020/21) in what should be his two career years at 27-29 because his arbitration salary would be $7-8 (this year alone), right?   Just feels like it would create some bad will...if you believe in the player, you have to make a commitment, like they did with Tim Anderson.

In my memory, we have never had a player take a significant pay cut in their prime years and stick with the organization.  It’s one of those “theoretically possible” situations, just feels unlikely.

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I don’t think many agents would take that deal...they’d rather just cut a one year deal and go back into the market.  It’s like saying he would only expect to earn $7-10 million combined (2020/21) in what should be his two career years at 27-29 because his arbitration salary would be $7-8 (this year alone), right?   Just feels like it would create some bad will...if you believe in the player, you have to make a commitment, like they did with Tim Anderson.

In my memory, we have never had a player take a significant pay cut in their prime years and stick with the organization.  It’s one of those “theoretically possible” situations, just feels unlikely.

 

 

I think if he is non tendered and doesn't receive any good offers it's actually good will on the Sox part to offer him more than anyone else.Even on a 1 year deal do you think Avi is going to get an $8M offer ?According to some here he might be worth a minor league contract. What other teams will be willing to give Avi as many AB's as the Sox would to prove himself. If he signs a 1 year deal and flops or gets injured he then enters his age 29 FA year as a non entity, Guaranteeing him money for 3 years plus an option for a 4th might be more enticing than gambling on himself for 1 year.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 hours ago, greg775 said:

Not trying to fight my nemesis here, just saying I don't understand arguments in which most of us think a player is not all that great (Avi, though I do immensely like his game) yet the "free agent status" is seen as something worth discussing. Again ... why would anybody sign Avi to anything significant considering all the warts that have been pointed out by Sox fans on this board. Who is going to sign him to some great deal and why would they want him for 5 years, 100 million or something like that? I personally think a healthy Avi is worth 4 years 36 million. Let's pay him that (if our trainers think they can get him on the field).

BTW, folks. Feel free to welcome greg back. I can't believe nobody noticed I was gone a while or simply deems me not worthy of missing. GO SOX!

Plenty noticed you were gone. Some even expressed concern for your health. You are more infamous than many on this board and having a screen name where everyone knows your  first name because of the way you drive everyone crazy and your constant need for attention. At this point you're lucky not to have people telling you to go back into hiding rather than welcoming you back.  Welcome back Greg ,glad you didn't die.

[Balta1701]

58 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think if he is non tendered and doesn't receive any good offers it's actually good will on the Sox part to offer him more than anyone else.Even on a 1 year deal do you think Avi is going to get an $8M offer ?According to some here he might be worth a minor league contract. What other teams will be willing to give Avi as many AB's as the Sox would to prove himself. If he signs a 1 year deal and flops or gets injured he then enters his age 29 FA year as a non entity, Guaranteeing him money for 3 years plus an option for a 4th might be more enticing than gambling on himself for 1 year.

 

So you're saying that if you were in his position and you knew that staying healthy could be all that is between you and a "JD Martinez deal", you'd take a 3 year deal to guarantee yourself an extra $10 million rather than betting on yourself to try to go for $100 million?

Frankly, if Avi was willing to sign a 3/$18 deal at his age, I wouldn't want him. The guy signing that deal doesn't believe in himself. 

[greg775]

50 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So you're saying that if you were in his position and you knew that staying healthy could be all that is between you and a "JD Martinez deal", you'd take a 3 year deal to guarantee yourself an extra $10 million rather than betting on yourself to try to go for $100 million?

Frankly, if Avi was willing to sign a 3/$18 deal at his age, I wouldn't want him. The guy signing that deal doesn't believe in himself. 

I think Avi has turned into a pretty good hitter in spite of his low BA last season. His recent injury history isn't good. I just like the idea of keeping him another year for the 8 mill and see how the murderer's row so to speak of Avi, Abreu, Eloy, Palka, Davidson, Moncada, Timmy, fares. If all those guys have mashing type years, is it a repeat of the 77 South Side Hit Men? I can see why some want him gone, though. He does get hurt and last year's lousy start was annoying, though allegedly he was playing in pain. GO SOX!

[greg775]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

At this point you're lucky not to have people telling you to go back into hiding rather than welcoming you back.  Welcome back Greg ,glad you didn't die.

Thanks. I was just curious because when I was gone I could read others posts and noticed nobody ever wondered where I was in posts. A weird dynamic for sure. I always notice Fathom disappearing in the offseason. He's an in-season poster.

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I think Avi has turned into a pretty good hitter in spite of his low BA last season. His recent injury history isn't good. I just like the idea of keeping him another year for the 8 mill and see how the murderer's row so to speak of Avi, Abreu, Eloy, Palka, Davidson, Moncada, Timmy, fares. If all those guys have mashing type years, is it a repeat of the 77 South Side Hit Men? I can see why some want him gone, though. He does get hurt and last year's lousy start was annoying, though allegedly he was playing in pain. GO SOX!

No, that is a pathetic murderer's row and a weak offense. 

[greg775]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, that is a pathetic murderer's row and a weak offense. 

I was talking to a Sox fan who went to about 10 games this season. She said the fans love Palka a bit more than we do on this board. I think you downplay my murderer's row a bit. Moncada and Tim all have enough experience that if they are going to be stars, it does start in 2019. Davidson and Palka hit a lot of bombs for their somewhat limited at bats. And Avi and Abreu are above average hitters. Eloy is supposed to be a monster. I think the hitters I listed provide a pretty good nucleus of batsmen. Could produce a lot of runs if we get any pitching at all.

Edited October 13, 2018 by greg775

[Balta1701]

Just now, greg775 said:

I was talking to a Sox fan who went to about 10 games this season. She said the fans love Palka a bit more than we do on this board. I think you downplay my murderer's row a bit. Moncada and Tim are have enough experience that if they are going to be stars, it does start in 2019. Davidson and Palka hit a lot of bombs for their somewhat limited at bats. And Avi and Abreu are above average hitters. Eloy is supposed to be a monster. I think the hitters I listed provide a pretty good nucleus of batsmen. Could produce a lot of runs if we get any pitching at all.

The Average big league RF put up a .766 OPS. Avi Garcia put up a .719 OPS. The average big league 1b put up a .770 OPS, Abreu put up a .798 OPS - he's above the big league average but actually behind the national league. Neither one of them played a full season. The average american league DH put up a .780 OPS, Palka put up a .778 OPS and Davidson put up a .738 OPS. The White Sox had the 2nd worst offensive production from their SS position in the AL in 2018. You have a couple guys who are average, a guy who will be a monster but who is also a rookie, and a bunch of below average bats, some of whom (Davidson) Might be removed just to clear a roster spot because that's more valuable. Your murderers row is a laughable joke.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

The Average big league RF put up a .766 OPS. Avi Garcia put up a .719 OPS. The average big league 1b put up a .770 OPS, Abreu put up a .798 OPS - he's above the big league average but actually behind the national league. Neither one of them played a full season. The average american league DH put up a .780 OPS, Palka put up a .778 OPS and Davidson put up a .738 OPS. The White Sox had the 2nd worst offensive production from their SS position in the AL in 2018. You have a couple guys who are average, a guy who will be a monster but who is also a rookie, and a bunch of below average bats, some of whom (Davidson) Might be removed just to clear a roster spot because that's more valuable. Your murderers row is a laughable joke.

Let me put it this way.  Davidson outhit Avi this yaer.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The Average big league RF put up a .766 OPS. Avi Garcia put up a .719 OPS. The average big league 1b put up a .770 OPS, Abreu put up a .798 OPS - he's above the big league average but actually behind the national league. Neither one of them played a full season. The average american league DH put up a .780 OPS, Palka put up a .778 OPS and Davidson put up a .738 OPS. The White Sox had the 2nd worst offensive production from their SS position in the AL in 2018. You have a couple guys who are average, a guy who will be a monster but who is also a rookie, and a bunch of below average bats, some of whom (Davidson) Might be removed just to clear a roster spot because that's more valuable. Your murderers row is a laughable joke.

Avi and Abreu did have bad seasons no doubt. I don't deny that and in a perfect world their salaries would be cut, not raised, via that performance. I respect your looking up all the OPS stats I truly do. I will say Sabes does not take into consideration the human element. By that I mean Avi played hurt when he did play and Abreu finally had an off season. In my world, I suggest Abreu's off season 'could' be because he plays for such a bad team. At some point, it's 'possible' again in my world, that a player might finally have a bad year because the team reeks so much. I know traditional stats don't matter much to many of you, but face facts, a few of the guys on this board are older traditionalists. And when I say murderer's row, I am looking at the 'traditional' power numbers. HRs, at bats, RBIs. And the always unpopular eye test. I happen to think Palka's 27 bombs in 417 at bats suggest vast power potential. Ditto Davidson's 20 homers in 434 at bats. Anderson and Moncada have enough MLB at bats that they now are expected to rake starting next season. They both are high draft picks with unbelievable hype/ceilings and they are there now, at that age, to rake.

I respect you for calling my murderers row line a "laughable joke," but in reality I do not see why you see it as that silly. Again, Moncada/Anderson ready to erupt at this stage of their MLB careers; Avi/Abreu coming off off seasons in which they also were hurt (Jose 499 at bats; Avi 356 at bats, 20 homers). "Murderers row" may be considered hyperbolic, but so could your other extreme of "laughable joke." Thanks for listening.

Edited October 13, 2018 by greg775

[caulfield12]

Maybe it would simply be easier to trade for one of the Dodgers 7-8 outfielders, lol.

Bellinger, Taylor, Peterson, Kemp, Puig, Kiki Hernandez (if/of), Alex Verdugo or even Toles.

Bellinger’s not going anywhere and Puig’s in his walk year next season, but TRY something better than forcing Palka/Delmonico/Cordell/Engel into those spots.