White Sox projected arb salaries

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Baker said:

Neither Avi or Abreu will probably get a Qualifying Offer ($18M) next year from the Sox. So no draft compensation. But the team has to have some protection in the line-up for Eloy, and they’ll need Jose for that at least. 

Abreu almost certainly will get a QO offer after 2019 unless he has a disastrous season. 

16 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

I disagree with the bolded. Who is he taking ABs from in 2019? This is assuming Eloy is in left, Palka at DH. 

At this point, I'd rather give OF at bats to Delmonico, Leury, Engel and Cordell than Avi.  Hell, even Rondon if the news of him playing the OF is for real.  And obviously Eloy is taking over RF by May.  I think we see an alignment of Delmonico, Engel, Palka/Cordell/FA/whoever, until Eloy comes up.  Obviously adding a real FA OF helps.

I see basically no upside to keeping Avi.  Even if he puts together another 2017, you aren't getting anything of value for him.  Just move on. 

 

[bubba phillips]

6 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

There is a chance that Avi's injuries contributed to what would have otherwise been a fine year.

If the Sox aren't in the running for Machado, why not spend the $8 million? What's the downside there?
 

To be clear, I think the non-tender option is also fine, but I think there's a chance he has trade value after all if a team comes up with an injured starting outfielder.

I agree.   That's why I would non-tender him but then try to sign him to an incentive-laden contract.   If he produces close to his 2017 numbers, it would be worth it, even if it ends up being around the $8 million he would have gotten in arbitration.

Also, why all the love some have shown for Delmonico.  He'll be 27 next season, hit .215 this year, and is a butcher in the field.

[Jose Abreu]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Abreu almost certainly will get a QO offer after 2019 unless he has a disastrous season. 

At this point, I'd rather give OF at bats to Delmonico, Leury, Engel and Cordell than Avi.  Hell, even Rondon if the news of him playing the OF is for real.  And obviously Eloy is taking over RF by May.  I think we see an alignment of Delmonico, Engel, Palka/Cordell/FA/whoever, until Eloy comes up.  Obviously adding a real FA OF helps.

 I see basically no upside to keeping Avi.  Even if he puts together another 2017, you aren't getting anything of value for him.  Just move on. 

 

I was under the impression that Eloy isn't good enough defensively to stick in right as a starter. And even if he is, he's very likely a worse defender than Robert, Basabe, Adolfo, Gonzalez, and Rutherford, so we might as well put him in left from the start since that's where he figures to be for a while. 

[GreenSox]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Abreu almost certainly will get a QO offer after 2019 unless he has a disastrous season. 

At this point, I'd rather give OF at bats to Delmonico, Leury, Engel and Cordell than Avi.  Hell, even Rondon if the news of him playing the OF is for real. 

 

Good point.   Although I wish there were just a little more raw talent in that group.  Re Rondon, if that's CF, I'm interested.

[Baker]

If the Sox do offer Abreu a QO next year, he would be smart to accept it. Not much of a market for an aging 2 WAR corner infielder with compensation attached. ( See Moustakas, Mike). 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Good point.   Although I wish there were just a little more raw talent in that group.  Re Rondon, if that's CF, I'm interested.

That would be a bridge too far.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If someone offered something, he would have been long gone.

It's never that simple. He hit .330. 3 freaking 30 . We all slough it off like it was nothing. Oh he'll go right back to where he was . He got lucky. Does anyone think Delmonico will ever hit .330 ? Cordell, Tilson ? When you talk about upside we have to see some evidence of it. Who do the Sox have that destroyed minor league pitching or has the upside of a JD Martinez. Avi and pretty much Avi alone.

Maybe Hahn wouldn't settle for what was offered. Maybe Hahn thought if he can just put together back to back years like that they  will really have something or we can really trade him for something.

I don't care how lucky you are, it takes tremendous talent to hit .330. Did Avi suck in 2018 ? Yup he sure did but he was injured, often. But when you look at his AB's he definitely showed more power than he ever has in fewer AB's. Is it possible he puts together a few years with both high average and good power ? If the answer to that is yes  then it's obvious you keep him.

Will he ever be as good as we all hope ? Probably not. But there's not a lot holding the Sox back from finding out. , Cordell , Tilson  Delmonico? Please ,they all are almost as old as Avi and wish they had his talent. With some bad drafts the Sox cannot afford to non tender the highest upside talent they have for a  measly $8M especially when they aren't paying anybody.

I am making this strong statement not because I believe in him 100% but because it's just baseball logic to me. Anyone who thinks or purely just desires him to be non tendered just hasn't thought it through . I am not afraid of being called out later if he is non tendered, There's a chance he is but maybe a higher chance Hahn settles for whatever is offered this time or they give him yet another chance. I know what I would do. I'd talk to JD Martinez and see what his winter plans are and hope he has a few weeks to spare and send Avi over to talk about hitting with him.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/9/2018 at 4:50 PM, Balta1701 said:

Even if they keep them all, they only have about $50 million on the books this year. They have room for a big name if they want it regardless of those 2. 

If they let both of them go, they have $13.3 million in contracts this year counting Jones's option, and the remainder there is $14.1 million, for a positively Marlins payroll of $27.4 million.

I'll be surprised if they let either of them walk, honestly. 

 

On 10/9/2018 at 5:13 PM, Jose Abreu said:

$8 million for Avi isn't really that much on a team whose payroll figures to be in the mid 60s without any big additions 

 

On 10/9/2018 at 6:42 PM, Jose Abreu said:

I disagree with the bolded. Who is he taking ABs from in 2019? This is assuming Eloy is in left, Palka at DH. 

 

On 10/9/2018 at 6:55 PM, Jack Parkman said:

Neither Abreu nor Avi are blocking anyone, so there really isn't a reason to non-tender either unless JR just wants to be a penny pincher, or there is a real chance of landing either Harper or Machado. 

 

On 10/9/2018 at 7:26 PM, turnin' two said:

Non tendering him doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

11 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

I still see no way Avi is non-tendered. Not saying that's what I want but the organization has stuck with him this long so who knows. I expect him to be on the team next year.

 

11 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

There is a chance that Avi's injuries contributed to what would have otherwise been a fine year.

If the Sox aren't in the running for Machado, why not spend the $8 million? What's the downside there?
 

To be clear, I think the non-tender option is also fine, but I think there's a chance he has trade value after all if a team comes up with an injured starting outfielder.

All these are correct . Anything else is wishful thinking. Only other one I saw that makes sense was non tender him and let him see what he can get and if it's a minor league deal then the Sox can offer him more . If it's higher ,say $3M ,then offer him $2-3M with incentives to make $5M more. This might be the only reason to non tender him. More than likely you still pay him less than $8M even if he hit's .315 with 30HR's but then you have a guy worth something with 2 of 3 good years and 1 injury riddled year.

[southsider2k5]

35 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's never that simple. He hit .330. 3 freaking 30 . We all slough it off like it was nothing. Oh he'll go right back to where he was . He got lucky. Does anyone think Delmonico will ever hit .330 ? Cordell, Tilson ? When you talk about upside we have to see some evidence of it. Who do the Sox have that destroyed minor league pitching or has the upside of a JD Martinez. Avi and pretty much Avi alone.

Maybe Hahn wouldn't settle for what was offered. Maybe Hahn thought if he can just put together back to back years like that they  will really have something or we can really trade him for something.

I don't care how lucky you are, it takes tremendous talent to hit .330. Did Avi suck in 2018 ? Yup he sure did but he was injured, often. But when you look at his AB's he definitely showed more power than he ever has in fewer AB's. Is it possible he puts together a few years with both high average and good power ? If the answer to that is yes  then it's obvious you keep him.

Will he ever be as good as we all hope ? Probably not. But there's not a lot holding the Sox back from finding out. , Cordell , Tilson  Delmonico? Please ,they all are almost as old as Avi and wish they had his talent. With some bad drafts the Sox cannot afford to non tender the highest upside talent they have for a  measly $8M especially when they aren't paying anybody.

I am making this strong statement not because I believe in him 100% but because it's just baseball logic to me. Anyone who thinks or purely just desires him to be non tendered just hasn't thought it through . I am not afraid of being called out later if he is non tendered, There's a chance he is but maybe a higher chance Hahn settles for whatever is offered this time or they give him yet another chance. I know what I would do. I'd talk to JD Martinez and see what his winter plans are and hope he has a few weeks to spare and send Avi over to talk about hitting with him.

And yet no one was willing to give up anything for him. Unless they plan on extending him, there is no good reason for him to be on the team in 19.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

25 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And yet no one was willing to give up anything for him. Unless they plan on extending him, there is no good reason for him to be on the team in 19.

You don't know that for sure about what anyone was willing to trade. It's all conjecture on your part unless you have knowledge the rest of don't which you are willing to share. I explained what Hahn could have been thinking in my post. If you want to keep repeating yourself on that front we will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

What I'm really getting from you is you want Eloy to be surrounded by a bunch of stiffs thus lessening his chances to fulfill his potential and hoping for a top 5 pick again not for this coming draft but maybe the one after that also. You don't want any veterans signed . You don't believe the Sox will sign a big name FA. You want to wait for our pitching prospects already here to prove themselves. You want to wait for the hitters and pitchers in the minors to come up.  You want the Sox to prove they haven't made as many mistakes in the draft as it looks like they have at the moment. You want an extremely cheap payroll and hope Palka and Delmonico can play OF when they are really just a AAAA player and a DH at the expense of the highest upside hitter we have in Avi. If I got any of this wrong I'm sure you will tell me.

And if the Sox do happen to sign Machado or Harper after that we scramble to  change everything you now think.

[greg775]

I love Palka, I really do, but I don't see why we'd just release Avi. Is $8 million really an overpay for a healthy Avi? Sox aren't planning on spending big bucks on next year's roster it appears so what's the big deal handing Avi $8 million? I realize he gets hurt a lot and maybe that's enough reason to just release him. I just don't consider $8 million that big a deal when the club realistically isn't going to be spending much dough (I don't think Harper or Machado are coming to South Side).

Edited October 11, 2018 by greg775

[ron883]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I love Palka, I really do, but I don't see why we'd just release Avi. Is $8 million really an overpay for a healthy Avi? Sox aren't planning on spending big bucks on next year's roster it appears so what's the big deal handing Avi $8 million? I realize he gets hurt a lot and maybe that's enough reason to just release him. I just don't consider $8 million that big a deal when the club realistically isn't going to be spending much dough (I don't think Harper or Machado are coming to South Side).

I'd rather the front office save money instead of paying Avi. Go for the gold and try to get Machado. That is 8 mil more you can pay him next year. Trade or nontender Abreu and you get an additional 16mil to pay him.

[caulfield12]

56 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You don't know that for sure about what anyone was willing to trade. It's all conjecture on your part unless you have knowledge the rest of don't which you are willing to share. I explained what Hahn could have been thinking in my post. If you want to keep repeating yourself on that front we will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

What I'm really getting from you is you want Eloy to be surrounded by a bunch of stiffs thus lessening his chances to fulfill his potential and hoping for a top 5 pick again not for this coming draft but maybe the one after that also. You don't want any veterans signed . You don't believe the Sox will sign a big name FA. You want to wait for our pitching prospects already here to prove themselves. You want to wait for the hitters and pitchers in the minors to come up.  You want the Sox to prove they haven't made as many mistakes in the draft as it looks like they have at the moment. You want an extremely cheap payroll and hope Palka and Delmonico can play OF when they are really just a AAAA player and a DH at the expense of the highest upside hitter we have in Avi. If I got any of this wrong I'm sure you will tell me.

And if the Sox do happen to sign Machado or Harper after that we scramble to  change everything you now think.

For all we know, the White Sox aren't confident in their 4-5 outfield prospects succeeding and are still playing out the possibility they can sign him to a reasonable extension from 2020-2022/23.  (Or maybe they're thinking they can pool them together to get a final finishing piece, like the Verlander and Cole trades for the Astros.)

Isn't that just as likely as the White Sox going out and trading for the equivalent of Cain and Yelich...they (also) usually seem to show MORE loyalty to their own (relatively) homegrown or young players, as opposed to investing huge amounts into free agents...when you think about guys like Buehrle, Danks, Konerko, Ordonez, in the past.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

I would probably non-tender Garcia because I don't believe he's worth $8 million. With that being said, I think he'll probably be back. Next year is his last year though and I wonder what they'd be looking for in trade discussions. Nobody was interested in trading for him last off-season and that was coming off his best year. 

[southsider2k5]

10 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You don't know that for sure about what anyone was willing to trade. It's all conjecture on your part unless you have knowledge the rest of don't which you are willing to share. I explained what Hahn could have been thinking in my post. If you want to keep repeating yourself on that front we will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

What I'm really getting from you is you want Eloy to be surrounded by a bunch of stiffs thus lessening his chances to fulfill his potential and hoping for a top 5 pick again not for this coming draft but maybe the one after that also. You don't want any veterans signed . You don't believe the Sox will sign a big name FA. You want to wait for our pitching prospects already here to prove themselves. You want to wait for the hitters and pitchers in the minors to come up.  You want the Sox to prove they haven't made as many mistakes in the draft as it looks like they have at the moment. You want an extremely cheap payroll and hope Palka and Delmonico can play OF when they are really just a AAAA player and a DH at the expense of the highest upside hitter we have in Avi. If I got any of this wrong I'm sure you will tell me.

And if the Sox do happen to sign Machado or Harper after that we scramble to  change everything you now think.

Avi is going to be a free agent in a year.  That alone is going to impact his trade value.  I do know for a fact that bat only players values have been severely downgraded on the trade market in the last few years.  Avi is that PLUS he is a gigantic question mark who has had major problems staying healthy, and he has had one career year surrounded by a ton of disappointment.  We also know that despite a career year, there wasn't an offer on the table that made Rick Hahn willing to move Avi at time when he was perfectly willing to move literally everyone of value from this roster.  None of that is in question.  From that it is pretty easy to surmise why Avi Garcia is still a White Sox.  No one was willing to give up anything of value for him.  It is also worth mentioning that your assertion about not knowing what happened with Avi does work both ways, but it in your case you can't even put together a convincing conjecture as to why he is still here while pretty much everyone else of value (outside of another positionally and defensively challenged Jose Abreu) is still here.  Unless you want to advocate for a contract extension for Garcia, you have to assume he will provide nothing of value (either his play or people he will allow us to acquire) in 2020.

Personally I don't care a lick about payroll in 2019.  A move on Avi isn't about profits to me, it is about roster space and construction.  I leave the hurt feelings over payroll to the people who feel offended by profits.

The last paragraph is 100% pointless.  You want to talk about facts and what can be proven in the first paragraph, but then spend an entire paragraph on my personal views. A t the end of the day, because we made the decision to undertake a radical rebuild the time for being impulsive with free agents and trades is past.  Now is the time to evaluate internal talent as much as is reasonably possible, and to get every single internal piece of talent possible out of this rebuild for the future.  This is exactly what the Cubs and Astros did, and they only added in the starting pitching staff to fill innings early (Ed Jackson) and when a really long term fit came along (Lester) in a position where they were thin.  Again, we are still really early in this process and it does us no good to skip steps at this stage.  The worst case scenario is that we miss out internally on talent, and we instead blow up the payroll to block players who could have filled holes or provided us with other prospects if we had been patient, and we clog the payroll not allowing to spend on other needs.

Again, it is super early here.  Have some patience and realize where we are in this process.

 

[Jack Parkman]

3 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I would probably non-tender Garcia because I don't believe he's worth $8 million. With that being said, I think he'll probably be back. Next year is his last year though and I wonder what they'd be looking for in trade discussions. Nobody was interested in trading for him last off-season and that was coming off his best year. 

If they had something better to occupy RF for the MLB team, I'd non-tender him too. Part of me wants to see him gone, part of me wants to see him stay because there is nothing better anywhere close to MLB. Avi was the definition of a replacement level player so if they want to move on and replace him with someone like McCutchen on a 2 year deal or something, I wouldn't complain. If the question is Avi at 8M or McCutchen at 12M, give me McCutchen. 

I really think the Sox are going to try to stopgap some areas with vets whether they get Machado or not. It wouldn't shock me at all if Pollock was signed to a 3 year deal, McCutchen to a 2 year deal and Grandal to a 4 year deal. If they get Machado, so be it. If they don't get Machado, and they're going the stopgap route, it wouldn't shock me if they gave Donaldson a 2-3 year deal either. They're going to spend this offseason, probably on both pitching and hitting. It wouldn't shock me if they targeted some young underperforming prospects or young pitchers like Jeff Hoffman to grab as well. They're going to be busy this offseason. It's going to look a lot like 2015. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I really think the Sox are going to try to stopgap some areas with vets whether they get Machado or not. It wouldn't shock me at all if Pollock was signed to a 3 year deal, McCutchen to a 2 year deal and Grandal to a 4 year deal. If they get Machado, so be it. If they don't get Machado, and they're going the stopgap route, it wouldn't shock me if they gave Donaldson a 2-3 year deal either. 

While I personally wouldn't be against this route, I highly doubt it happens.  I expect them to explore Machado market, and I hope like hell they go after Pollock because he'd be a great fit in CF for next season or two and can move to a corner if needed in 2020 or 2021. But I HIGHLY doubt we see the Sox go after McCutchen, and we already have 3 capable major leauge catchers, so doubt the Sox go after Grandal.

[Jack Parkman]

11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

While I personally wouldn't be against this route, I highly doubt it happens.  I expect them to explore Machado market, and I hope like hell they go after Pollock because he'd be a great fit in CF for next season or two and can move to a corner if needed in 2020 or 2021. But I HIGHLY doubt we see the Sox go after McCutchen, and we already have 3 capable major leauge catchers, so doubt the Sox go after Grandal.

They do have capable catchers, but Grandal is so good at receiving and defense, that it would probably improve the pitching staff greatly. It wouldn't shock me if they went after Grandal and moved out Castillo for a bag of used baseballs. Imagine how much someone like Grandal would help the pitching staff in terms of called strikes on borderline pitches. They almost always went against the Sox pitchers this year. I'm almost to the point that when it comes to catching, framing is the most important skill to have. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is huge, and the difference between 1-0 and 0-1 is also huge. Sox catching was god awful at that this past season. Narvaez is fine at hitting but he's so awful as a catcher that it makes me question having him around. I feel like his hitting is far outweighed by the pressure he puts on the pitching staff with his horrid receiving. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If they had something better to occupy RF for the MLB team, I'd non-tender him too. Part of me wants to see him gone, part of me wants to see him stay because there is nothing better anywhere close to MLB. Avi was the definition of a replacement level player so if they want to move on and replace him with someone like McCutchen on a 2 year deal or something, I wouldn't complain. If the question is Avi at 8M or McCutchen at 12M, give me McCutchen. 

I really think the Sox are going to try to stopgap some areas with vets whether they get Machado or not. It wouldn't shock me at all if Pollock was signed to a 3 year deal, McCutchen to a 2 year deal and Grandal to a 4 year deal. If they get Machado, so be it. If they don't get Machado, and they're going the stopgap route, it wouldn't shock me if they gave Donaldson a 2-3 year deal either. They're going to spend this offseason, probably on both pitching and hitting. It wouldn't shock me if they targeted some young underperforming prospects or young pitchers like Jeff Hoffman to grab as well. They're going to be busy this offseason. It's going to look a lot like 2015. 

This is the wrong mentality for 2019.  It isn't about "better".  It is about the future of the franchise, and in no way, shape, or form is Avi Garcia in that discussion.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

While I personally wouldn't be against this route, I highly doubt it happens.  I expect them to explore Machado market, and I hope like hell they go after Pollock because he'd be a great fit in CF for next season or two and can move to a corner if needed in 2020 or 2021. But I HIGHLY doubt we see the Sox go after McCutchen, and we already have 3 capable major leauge catchers, so doubt the Sox go after Grandal.

I would have to say the two least likely positions the Sox pursue players in are OF and C.  Their catching tandem last year was one of the most productive in baseball, and we have two potential catchers on the way.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is the wrong mentality for 2019.  It isn't about "better".  It is about the future of the franchise, and in no way, shape, or form is Avi Garcia in that discussion.

I agree with that statement wholeheartedly, but they still have to put butts in seats. He isn't blocking anyone. Which OF will be pushing for time next year? I don't see anyone other than Eloy. He's going to be a fixture in LF for the time being. Basabe is next closest but I don't see him getting a look until next September at the earliest. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

I agree with that statement wholeheartedly, but they still have to put butts in seats. He isn't blocking anyone. Which OF will be pushing for time next year? I don't see anyone other than Eloy. He's going to be a fixture in LF for the time being. Basabe is next closest but I don't see him getting a look until next September at the earliest. 

I would rather see the team start Palka in RF for the time being to see if they can turn him into a respectable defensive RF.  Give him a year or until someone pushes him out.  DH or 1B will always be there if not.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would have to say the two least likely positions the Sox pursue players in are OF and C.  Their catching tandem last year was one of the most productive in baseball, and we have two potential catchers on the way.

I disagree about the catching because I thought a lot of the poor performance of the pitchers this past season had a lot to do with the absolutely crappy receiving skills of the catchers. They were costing their pitchers strikes left and right. They might be ok offensively, but the catchers, as a group, probably cost the Sox more runs with their receiving than they scored with their offense. 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would rather see the team start Palka in RF for the time being to see if they can turn him into a respectable defensive RF.  Give him a year or until someone pushes him out.  DH or 1B will always be there if not.

Palka can barely handle LF. I think he's pretty clearly a DH/1B already. He's 2017 Schwarber bad out there. That would last about 10 games before everyone would be pulling their hair out. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Palka can barely handle LF. I think he's pretty clearly a DH/1B already. He's 2017 Schwarber bad out there. That would last about 10 games before everyone would be pulling their hair out. 

The numbers actually show he made a ton of improvement out there as the season went on.  He was nothing good out there, but again, this is the time to put him out there to see if he can learn it or not.  There is zero good reason to waste valuable ABs on Avi.