kramer99 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I'm new to this board and i just was wondering what u think of this trade....is it possible?...would you want to do it? To LA: Magglio Ordonez Jose Valentin ( we would have to sign and trade) Miles or Harris To Sox: Odalis Perez Paul Quintrill (or another good righty bullpen pitcher) Ceaser Izturis AA or AAA Starting Pitcher ( 1 top prospect or 2 average prospects) What do u think, We a get a young shortstop and lower payroll to afford Colon or maybe allow us to sign Castillo who is a free agent :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I wouldn't be interested in that, but hey, I'm not KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I would do it in a heart beat. I think its a very fair trade. The only stipulation is I'd love to get Mota instead of Quantrill if possible. I should say this is if that additional 14 mill means the Sox invest the money in other areas. Welcome Aboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 How did Cesar Izturis do this year because from his short career I don't think he'd help out much at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I mentioned the possibility of trading Maggs to LA earlier and I do think it could happen. LA has the financial flexibility to add payroll and will probably make a run at Guerrero, although I see him ending up in a Yankee uniform. Maggs would be a good fall back plan for LA because they REALLY need some offense. The good news is that Evans might be the worst GM in baseball and the Sox might be able to steal some good players from them. I purposed a trade that went something like this: LA gets: Maggs Sox get: Mota 2 prospects from this list(2B Thurston, SP Hanrahan, 2B/SS Young, 1B Loney, SP Miller, 3B Aybar) A sign and trade of Valentin isn't likely either, although LA might be interested in signing him as a FA to add offense any way they can get it. Perez might be avalaible because I think he was mentioned in some trade talks. He might be a good addition, although I am always a little cautious about LA pitchers since they pitch in probably the best pitchers park in the game. Perez's home and away numbers are pretty drastic and suggest that he might struggle away from LA. I would rather have Mota instead of Quantrill, especially when you consider salaries. I don't know why people keep mentioning Izturis. Sure he is a very good defensive SS, but he cant hit his weight. He might get a little better, but I have a feeling he will always be below average offensively. He offers little besides his D and I hope the Sox stay away from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSOX45 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 The only way I make this deal is if the White Sox get Kaz Ishii, or Odalis Perez along with Mota, and a a couple of highly touted prospects. CWSOX45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Izturis is great in da field but he ain't that good of a bat, but he's ok against leftys. I'd absolutely take that deal but I don't think LA would want all of those salaries sumhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 The only way I make this deal is if the White Sox get Kaz Ishii, or Odalis Perez along with Mota, and a a couple of highly touted prospects. CWSOX45 I disagree. Here is how you have to look at it. Not only would the Sox be getting Mota and 2 very good prospects, but they would be saving 13M/yr(Mota makes about 1M/yr). So you can invest that 13M/yr into getting Cabrera and Castillo. So in the end you can think of it like this: Maggs for Mota 2 very good prospects Castillo Cabrera If you won't take that deal then you are crazy. The Sox probably wont get more then 2 or 3 good prospects for Maggs, ESPECIALLY if they want the team they are trading him too to pay his entire salary. Like I mentioned before, be careful with taking LA pitchers. They pitch in the friendliest pitchers park in the game, and it is always wise to check their home and away splits, because their away numbers are more likely then their home or overall numbers. LA pitchers dont have a good track record after leaving LA. I would rather have Mota and 2 very good prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I think you trade him for the best deal you can get, if that's the direction the team wants to head in. Personally, I liked the earlier idea of Jas that had Mags heading to San Diego for Peavy and Nady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If the Sox trade Maggs to LA, Eric Gagne better be in the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If the Sox trade Maggs to LA, Eric Gagne better be in the deal. Don't count on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Don't count on it. Well then LA can suck off, I don't trade my best hitter unless I'm getting a big gun in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Don't count on it. Can we include Billy Koch and his $6 million dollar contract in that deal as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Well then LA can suck off, I don't trade my best hitter unless I'm getting a big gun in return. Agreed. If we are going to unload him, we need a solid arm and a solid hitter plus prospects or can't miss prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 You guys are looking at this the wrong way. You first need to understand that most of baseball is based around economics and financial flexibility, that is how much is your owner/management willing to spend. JR will probably have a payroll around 60M for 2004, and to be honest there is no reason for him to make it much higher than that(after all this is a business and he is in it to make money). Maggs is a very good player, but he IS NOT worth 14M/yr. The only current hitters worth 14M/yr are Bonds, Pujols, Helton, ARod, and Delgado. The Sox CAN NOT afford to pay a player 4-5M/yr more then he is worth. If we had Steinbrenner as an owner, than that can happen, but not when you have a 60M/yr limit. So you have to look at more then just the players received, you also have to consider that it will free up 14M to invest in other areas. So trading Maggs for Mota, 2 very good prospects, and having 13M to fix other holes is certainly worth it and it is pretty easy to see. You need to understand the economics of baseball to fully understand why this would be a great deal for the Sox. Maggs is my favorite player, but I would pack his bags for him if it means the Sox could put a more talented team on the field, which this trade would do(assuming the Sox use the extra 13M to fill other holes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steaming Willy Harris Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I think i would agree with you there, though I dont think i would want Cesar Izsturas, it doesnt look like that guy is any good. Maggs is not worth the money he is payed, i would only justify paying that much money to a truly dominant player and leader such as Bonds. I think that if Maggs was traded that would free up money to keep a solid core of players like Carlos Lee and Frank Thomas, and keep the pitching rotation intact like signing Buerle to a contract extension, keeping Colon (if not Colon then another FA pitcher). Plus the Sox farm system could use a few more prospects, especially in the middle infield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramer99 Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 you guys seem to like parts of the trade but heres my reasons behind it.... Izturis is great defensivly, is 22 yrs old, and seems to be heading towards a break out season soon...we would improve our starting staff with aother young lefty arm....we would definatly improve our bullpen with quintell or Mota....we would possibly lower our payroll and allow us to sign a guy like castillo...and i think it would be possible cuz the sox have alot of righty power hitters and i could see LA wanting Valentin for lefty power and if we get Castillo we wouldnt need both miles and harris....LA has a ton of SP and great Bullpen pitchers with a somewut bad GM from what i hear and we could possibly get a good upper level pitching prospect. I think its an idea which is what KW needs :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Yeah, but we can't bank our shortstop position on a guy who "might" do this or might do that. Get a guy that has proven to be pretty good. I.E. Cabrera. Can't bank on hope, it will get you nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramer99 Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 i hear that but if it is possible that other teams may want Cabrera and with the sox overall payroll i doubt they would get him and castillo, i'd like castillo and Cabrera but i'd take Castillo over Cabrera with a great young defensive shortstop in isturis....he did hit .250 this year at 22...that isnt that bad if he hits in the 8 spot, he may be another Ozzie Guillen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I wouldn't be interested in that, but hey, I'm not KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 "Izturis is great defensivly, is 22 yrs old, and seems to be heading towards a break out season soon" Actually he is 23 and will be 24 by the start of next season, but your point that he is still young is valid. Why do you seem to think he is heading towards a break out year? There is nothing in his stats that suggest that. I have a feeling that Izturis is a younger version of Rey Ordonez. Great glove and no offense. He hasn't shown the ability to hit for average, refuses to walk, has no power, has average speed, and posted a DOWN RIGHT TERRIBLE OPS of .597. That makes my stomach churn thinking of a .597 OPS. If the Sox get Mota and prospects for Maggs, than they will save about 13M/yr, which is enough to sign BOTH Castillo and Cabrera. I would MUCH rather have Cabrera than Izturis. "we would improve our starting staff with aother young lefty arm" Here are the 2 most important stats when looking at pitchers from LA(Perez's numbers from 03'): 03' home: 6-3 2.73 ERA 03' away: 6-9 5.59 ERA LA is probably the best pitchers park in the majors, so you have to take that into consideration. If Perez were to pitch in a park like Commisky on a regular basis, than his ERA will most likely be closer to his away ERA of 5.59, which is terrible, especially when you consider thats in the NL where ERA's are usually .25-.30 lower than AL ERA's. My advice would be to stay away from both Izturis and Pezez. They both have red flags when I hear their names mentioned, and I think thats one of the reasons that LA has them on the trading block. "i could see LA wanting Valentin for lefty power" I think LA might be interested in Valentin as well, although they will probably go after Tejada, Matsui, and Cabrera 1st. That should tell you something about their feelings towards Izturis when they are going after a replacement. That tells me that they feel Izturis just isn't good enough to be an everyday SS in the majors. A sign and trade is VERY rare in baseball(maybe in basketball) so it probably wont happen. I still think the best deal for the Sox would be to trade Maggs for Mota and 2 very good prospects(I listed a bunch earilier). That way the Sox get a cheap, good right handed reliever, 2 good prospects, and 13M/yr to play with(sign Castillo and Cabrera to play the middle infield). The money you save by not resigning Alomar and Valentin can then go to finding a cheaper replacement for Maggs(Ibanez, White, Jones/Stewart, Guillen, Cameron, Sanders) to name a few. Personally I would love to bring Cameron back for about 6-7M/yr IF the Sox traded Maggs. If you look at Cameron's home and away splits you will see that Safeco being a good pitchers park has affected his numbers. Cameron would bring GG calibur D to CF(moving Rowand to RF), great speed, some pop, and a good walk total(the one weakness of this team is OBP and Cameron's high walk totals are a nice addition). I think a lineup like this would be realistic(financial wise) and better then last year. C Olivo (500K) 1B Spiezo (3M) - If Frank wants his 8M/yr option, than he will probably be gone. Spiezo is a solid offensively, a GG calibur defensive 1B, a lefty bat in the middle, and cost about half of what Frank would 2B Castillo (7M) SS Cabrera (6M) 3B Crede (500K) LF Lee (6M) CF Cameron (6M) RF Rowand (500K) DH Konerko (8M) - I would love to trade him, but his 8M/yr salary wil be hard to move SP Buehrle (3M) SP LHernandez/Ponson (6M) - I have a feeling that Colon is going elsewhere and the Sox will settle for a second-tier pitcher via FA or trade SP Loiaza (3.5M) SP Garland (1M) SP Shoey/Alverez (1M) - I would love to see the Sox take a 1-2M/yr risk on Alverez BP Mota (1M) - via Maggs trade BP Koch (6M) - impossible to move his 6M/yr salary BP Marte (1M) BP Wunsch (1M) BP Ginter (500K) BP Wright (500K) IF Miles (500K) IF/CF Harris (500K) OF Reed/Borchard (500K) C Rivera/Burke (500K) OF - other (500K) Total Payroll 64.5M - 2M(rounding up for minimum wage to make it easier to add) = 62.5M Plus the Sox will improve their minor league system with 2 good prospects and compensation for Colon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Way too much analysis and speculation. For example: Cameron coming back to the Sox. I'll bank on Steph's word and say it ain't gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Way too much analysis and speculation. For example: Cameron coming back to the Sox. I'll bank on Steph's word and say it ain't gonna happen. Thats what the offseason is for. Reflection, speculation, and analysis. In all honesty I highly doubt Cameron will be back. I didn't say that was going to be the likely roster, but a team that I wouldn't mind seeing(that fits the financial contraints). Here is what I think is realisticly going to happen. The Sox won't be active on the FA market(1 or 2 decent signings and thats it), but will be active on the trade market. At least one big trade will take place with one of the following leaving the Sox(Thomas, Konerko, Lee, Maggs, Koch). You could see as many as 2 or 3 trades including the above mentioned players. The Sox have too much payroll tied up in power hitting OF/1B/DH type players, and KW loves to trade, so you can pretty much bank on one of the above being traded. In all likelyhood a trade will net the Sox a cheaper replacement for the traded player and/or prospects and/or a second-tier pitcher and/or a middle infielder. Colon will sign elsewhere, but the Sox will get a second-tier starting pitcher either via FA or trade(see above). Alomar and Valentin have about a 50/50 shot of being back if they are willing to take a paycut. If they aren't back then the Sox will most likely trade for a middle infielder or sign a cheap replacement or maybe turn to Miles or Harris at 2B. The Sox will probably add a right handed reliever via trade or FA Everett is a good as gone. I know that I have not be too detailed about the whats going to happen this offseason, but I think you get the general idea of how I think the offseason will turn out. At this point it is hard to say. One big trade could answer a bunch of these questions, so at this point it is anyones guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Whoever is selected as manager will give some clues as to what will happen this off season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Trade Maggs????????? And for Izturis, Quantrill and Perez???? Our best hitter for nothing and people in here calll KW crazy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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