Dick Allen Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 "Giles contract is MUCH more attractive than Magglio's. Cheaper and longer. The prospects given up where nowhere near what everyone is talking about Ordonez. Look at what the Sox were able to get Colon with . He had 1 year and $8.5 million left. 1 year and $14 million is going to get you a heck of a lot less." 1 year longer and a LITTLE doesn't make Giles MUCH more attractive than Maggs. The prospects Pittsburgh got were very good. Perez was arguable their top pitching prospect. He has dynomite stuff from the left side and is already pitching in the majors at 22. Bay is a top outfield prospect, plus they got another player. That 2 very good prospects and another player. What was my purposal from LA? 2 very good prospects and Mota. I don't know about you but that seems very realistic. I'll bet you a beer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If its Odalis, Cesar, and Edwin Jackson, I'd do it. Odalis would be a great 3rd-4th starter. Cesar is an NL type player and wont provide much offense, but hes just about the most solid defensive ss in the league. Edwin Jackson is probably their top prospect and would be ready to pitch next year. Having Maggs gone would be a huge hole in the lineup but that deal would be much better in the long run. It would also free up more money to resign Colon. Colon Buehrle Esteban Odalis Edwin Jackson/Garland That looks damn good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I understand the concept, but I am going to nitpick and say that Ozzie Smith came before Ordonez, therefore he could have never been a younger version of Rey Ordonez. LOL....Rex, do you maybe have this backwards??? Don't you mean that Rey Ordonez was at one point described as "a young Ozzie Smith"? ...Ozzie's a little older than Rey... I guess I am going to have to defend my comment because some of you aren't smart enough to grasp conceptual thinking.... Saying that Ozzie Smith was once a "younger version of Rey Ordonez" is completely accurate if you can understand the meaning behind it. Obviously putting it in quotes wasn't enough to make you understand the idea, so I will type slower this time while explaining...... For those of you who understood the first time, I apologize for wasting your time reading this. Rey Ordonez is a light hitting, great defensive SS. The term used to be "good glove, no hit" to describe that type of player. Ozzie Smith was once that same kind of player, until he learned to hit and became a solid big league hitter while earning gold glove after gold glove... The comparison is the same.. "a younger Rey Ordonez" = a young Ozzie Smith. And for those of you that need a history lesson, Ozzie Smith made himself into a more than respectable hitter. He averaged .279 over the last 10 years, including 25 doubles. (I excluded his last two years because he was not a full time player and his total AB's in those two years barely equaled 1/2 of one full season) For the time he played, Ozzie was a very respectable hitter and hardly can be considered overrated. He was a key player on three Cardinals WS teams. Overrated players do not make the Hall of Fame near unanimously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 "I guess I am going to have to defend my comment because some of you aren't smart enough to grasp conceptual thinking..." If you read the 1st couple of words I typed, than you will notice that I understood the concept. No need to get pissed off about and start making personal attacks. I thought you were better then that. We were just having a little fun with you to beign with, so relax, don't take it so personally, and laugh a little. "And for those of you that need a history lesson, Ozzie Smith made himself into a more than respectable hitter. He averaged .279 over the last 10 years, including 25 doubles. (I excluded his last two years because he was not a full time player and his total AB's in those two years barely equaled 1/2 of one full season)" You say this is though we should be impressed. A .279 average is nothing special even during the pitcher dominated era of the 1970's-1980's. Don't pretend that his offense is what got him into the HOF. Even before Ozzie started hitting for a decent average he still showed good plate disipline(never SO more then he BB) and great speed. I realize once again that it was a different era, but Izturis has shown the ability to do neither. "For the time he played, Ozzie was a very respectable hitter and hardly can be considered overrated. He was a key player on three Cardinals WS teams. Overrated players do not make the Hall of Fame near unanimously." I am not going to start a huge arguement over this, but just because you are in the HOF CERTAINLY doesn't mean you aren't overrated, so please don't fall back on that as being your only reasoning. The HOF has a lot to do with politics and how a select few feel you measured up to your peers. Half the guys that vote for the HOF were never everyday players in the majors. Smith was an average offensive player, great defesive player, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY media and fan friendly with his antics. He would be considered a middle of the pack SS in todays game. His closest comparison today is probably Omar Vizquel who is very good, but NOT A FUTURE HOF. He was a good SS, but IMO not a HOF and OVERRATED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 If its Odalis, Cesar, and Edwin Jackson, I'd do it. Odalis would be a great 3rd-4th starter. Cesar is an NL type player and wont provide much offense, but hes just about the most solid defensive ss in the league. Edwin Jackson is probably their top prospect and would be ready to pitch next year. Having Maggs gone would be a huge hole in the lineup but that deal would be much better in the long run. It would also free up more money to resign Colon. Colon Buehrle Esteban Odalis Edwin Jackson/Garland That looks damn good to me. Something tells me the Dodgers won't give up that much for Ordonez. I'd do 61328's proposal in a second. Get $14 mill off the payroll....if that helps resign Colon and get Cabrera and Castillo in here, by all means do it and do it quickly. That is one HELL of a deal if you can do it. I mean, it's exactly like he said....you get Mota, those 2 prospects, and Cabrera and Castillo(along with the possibility of retaining Colon for next year)....I would give up Maggs if I could get that deal done. And then if you can find a home for Konerko(I'm sure Baltimore would have a little interest in him....get whatever you can, and if you can get Jason Johnson, again, by all mean's do it....he'd be a hell of a 5th starter). If you can, that takes off another $8 mill, and with that $8 mill, you could possibly add Hawkins too. A bullpen of Hawkins, Marte, Wunsch, Mota, Wright, and Koch, if he can regain his s***....that is sick. Of course, Wright isn't necessarily a given, but is a possibility. If that bullpen acctually came true, that could seriously be the best bullpen in the league.....none of this s*** we had from last year either. Almost all successful teams build their teams around pitching, pitching, and even more pitching, and a little defense and offense mixed in there. No reason we shouldn't try it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramer99 Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 I' m not possitive about this but didnt the sox already do a sign and trade with Mark Johnson or was that different? he may have been arbitration eligible but i remember that they signed him. I know for a fact that the sox need to get rid of a big payoll or two in order to get a decent pitcher...i think we can all agree that KW has a hell of alot of work ahead of him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Don't pretend that his offense is what got him into the HOF. Ozzie's offense definitely got him into the Hall of Fame... If he was a .220 hitter, one he wouldn't have lasted as a starter for so long and two, no matter how good a guy is defensively, he is not a hall of Famer if he hits .220. Nitpick all you want, but Ozzie was one of the best players during his era, hardly overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I really don't want to see maggs playing for any other team. Yes I understand all the economic realities, etc. But Maggs is a f***ing star. Why do we have to trade him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I really don't want to see maggs playing for any other team. Yes I understand all the economic realities, etc. But Maggs is a f***ing star. Why do we have to trade him? You answered your own question. Economic realities, i.e. Jerry Reinsdorf is a cheap bastard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I really do understand economic stuff. But again .... Magglio belongs in a Sox uniform, period. I just wish Dork would sell the team. We're never going to make the playoffs/Series with the attitude of signing studs for one year like Colon then letting them go, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 We're never going to make the playoffs/Series with the attitude of signing studs for one year like Colon then letting them go, etc. It worked for the Marlins in 97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 For the time he played, Ozzie was a very respectable hitter and hardly can be considered overrated. He was a key player on three Cardinals WS teams. Overrated players do not make the Hall of Fame near unanimously. I think the fact the he was a first ballot, near unaminous HOF'er is precisely why he is overrated. No way in hell was Ozzie any better than Aparicio. Yet, Looie didn't get in on the first ballot. Ozzie, while still deserving of his HOF status, backflippeed his way in on the first ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I really don't want to see maggs playing for any other team. Yes I understand all the economic realities, etc. But Maggs is a f***ing star. Why do we have to trade him? Maggs, for me, is a top priority. Trade PK, let Frank go so you can afford another good pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I really don't want to see maggs playing for any other team. Yes I understand all the economic realities, etc. But Maggs is a f***ing star. Why do we have to trade him? JR has 14 million reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I really don't want to see maggs playing for any other team. Yes I understand all the economic realities, etc. But Maggs is a f***ing star. Why do we have to trade him? Maggs, for me, is a top priority. Trade PK, let Frank go so you can afford another good pitcher. If Maggs has a great year, he'll hit about .340, 42 HR and 140 RBI ... couldn't ask for more than that. If we could get a rightfielder for $7 Mil that could hit .300 - 32 - 100, that would free up $7 Mil to spend elsewhere. If you kept Maggs you'd be spending that money on 10 extra HR and 40 or so RBI. I'd rather spend it Luis Castilla or another good starting pitcher. That's why it makes sense to trade Magglio. I think the guy is great. I'd hate to lose him. But, you have put things in the proper perspective and look at the big picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Prell Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 what are u a dumbass kick this guy off the site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 what are u a dumbass kick this guy off the site Who ya talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 "Maggs is not worth the money he is payed" --Talk about taking for granted what we have here. Maggs had an awesome awesome year and is one of the top players in the f***ing league. Pls show Maggs some respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 "Maggs is not worth the money he is payed" --Talk about taking for granted what we have here. Maggs had an awesome awesome year and is one of the top players in the f***ing league. Pls show Maggs some respect. While your right Maggs is awesome, when you look at it in terms of the Sox payroll, it will be very hard to compete when you have so much money distrubted to so few players, especially when most of them don't produce or didn't. I'm referring to Koch and Konerko who make a ton between the two and are unmoveable. Then Maggs at 14 mill is going to be tough to fit in when you pay those two clowns 15 mill next year. Thats 29 mill and when you count Thomas it reaches 36 mill, which is over half of the expected payroll. Its very hard to compete when 4 guys, only two that are productive are taking up around 60% of your payroll. Especially when your trying to retain guys like Colon, resign Buehrle, and others. As far as I'm concerned offense should take a back seat to pitching and for those reasons I put bringing back Colon or getting another pitcher as a higher priority. Especially if this deal allows the Sox to add Castillo/Cabrerra and then go get someone like Ponson. I'm more for taking 14 mill and dividing it up so you have a complete team then having one star and then having bums around him. A team with many solid hitters, will be very sucessful when it has great pitching. It will also be a consistent team. If this team is going to compete at 60 mill, they are going to have be very creative and very willing to do some much roster swaps. Even guys we like could be gone. In my opinion for this team to compete at 60 mill they are going to have to have 4-5 new guys on the starting lineup and then some. I'd say at least 3-4 trades have to be made and 2-3 signings. This team is really close, but they aren't going to be able to make it good as it is just be using free agency since the owner won't let them. Right now dealing Maggs, Lee, Konerko, Koch would be priorties. Get very good players in return for Magglio, and use his money on a new middleinfield. You can develop your pen more with Maggs. Then move Lee for a younger hitter thats still very good and an arm and then use his money to bring in your pitcher to replace Colon if he can't stay. Then use what you lose in Konerko/Koch to give guys raises as well as adding some relievers and such and then fill the last two slots (1st/OF) with some cheap guys that stick around. Guys like Daubach, Ortiz, Fullmer, Spiezo who you can bring in about 3 of for about 6 mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 This would be a good story for the media to get quotes from Dork and KW, etc. You make great points! I want to hear them say whether we can afford to keep Maggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 ChiSoxFn, how come when you say it, you make good points and when I say it I'm a dumbass that should be kicked of the board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 ChiSoxFn, how come when you say it, you make good points and when I say it I'm a dumbass that should be kicked of the board? Lol...everyone wants to be just like me...even Michael Jordan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 ChiSoxFn, how come when you say it, you make good points and when I say it I'm a dumbass that should be kicked of the board? Because his answers are longer than yours. Readers either get confused reading it or are just too weary from reading the whole post so they just agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 $14M players need to produce to win 1-0 games (Det. twice and San Diego,) I like Maggs and he puts up great numbers. The fact he has one game winning hit in his career and Alex Gonzalez has 7 (5 via the home run) in two years with the cub makes me wonder. Also, Maggs is a great hitter when the weather is nice. This takes away half of our season. This being said, could you sell the Rangers on him straight-up? They are looking to cut $20M in payroll for A-Rod this would be $11M and he could leave via free agency if he doesn't pan out or you sign him for less (Maggs and Texas) next season. This would show me JR is serious. Konerko-Lee-Maggs = greater than $25M for next year. You bring Alomar and Everatt back cheap. Resign Colon and we take some spotlight from America's Team. Alomar-Rowand -Everett-A-Rod-Daubach-Thomas-Crede-Reed-Olivo = $43M assuming $5M for everett and Alomar and $6M for Thomas. Garland-Colon-Buerhle-Loiaza-Schoenweis = $1M,$13M, $3M, $3M $1.5M = $20.5M $6m for the pen = $70M total for team. Are we serious???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 $14M players need to produce to win 1-0 games (Det. twice and San Diego,) I like Maggs and he puts up great numbers. The fact he has one game winning hit in his career and Alex Gonzalez has 7 (5 via the home run) in two years with the cub makes me wonder. Also, Maggs is a great hitter when the weather is nice. This takes away half of our season. This being said, could you sell the Rangers on him straight-up? They are looking to cut $20M in payroll for A-Rod this would be $11M and he could leave via free agency if he doesn't pan out or you sign him for less (Maggs and Texas) next season. This would show me JR is serious. Konerko-Lee-Maggs = greater than $25M for next year. You bring Alomar and Everatt back cheap. Resign Colon and we take some spotlight from America's Team. Alomar-Rowand -Everett-A-Rod-Daubach-Thomas-Crede-Reed-Olivo = $43M assuming $5M for everett and Alomar and $6M for Thomas. Garland-Colon-Buerhle-Loiaza-Schoenweis = $1M,$13M, $3M, $3M $1.5M = $20.5M $6m for the pen = $70M total for team. Are we serious???????? Just a quick note. Maggs has many more than one game winning hit. It is actually one walk off homer that you are thinking of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.