So is no one falling on the sword for 2018?

[Thad Bosley]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

You have lost your mind. Seriously if you are this angry about baseball,  you are wasting your time. 

If you can’t handle this level of discussion, then you’re the one wasting your time masquerading around as a supposed “Administrator” of an internet message board dedicated to serious discussion about the Chicago White Sox.   

[southsider2k5]

13 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

If you can’t handle this level of discussion, then you’re the one wasting your time masquerading around as a supposed “Administrator” of an internet message board dedicated to serious discussion about the Chicago White Sox.   

I can handle the discussion.  It is you who is throwing an all out temper tantrum when someone doesn't agree with you and resorting to personal attacks.

[SCCWS]

I have posted on this site several times ( maybe too many) , that a key factor with the White Sox attendance problem  is the lack of corporate ticket sales.  Those seats are not affected as much by wins/losses as the walk-up crowd. Big market teams sell a lot of corporate tickets not counting the boxes that are sold. I think it would be interesting to know how many corporate tickets the Cubs sell versus the White Sox. I would bet the number runs 5-8,000.  

[Eminor3rd]

On 10/20/2018 at 3:58 PM, SCCWS said:

I have posted on this site several times ( maybe too many) , that a key factor with the White Sox attendance problem  is the lack of corporate ticket sales.  Those seats are not affected as much by wins/losses as the walk-up crowd. Big market teams sell a lot of corporate tickets not counting the boxes that are sold. I think it would be interesting to know how many corporate tickets the Cubs sell versus the White Sox. I would bet the number runs 5-8,000.  

While it’s certainly plausible, this is a weird claim to make given that none of us have any knowledge at all about how well the Sox group sales and corporate partnerships departments are performing. 

[Thad Bosley]

On 10/18/2018 at 7:17 PM, southsider2k5 said:

lol, this same fan base that apparently needs multiple consecutive playoff appearances to show up expects little. 

lol, this same fan base that joins the Marlins and Brewers fan bases as the ONLY THREE FAN BASES IN ALL OF BASEBALL who have NEVER experienced watching their team make consecutive playoff appearances.  

Edited October 23, 2018 by Fan O'Faust

[southsider2k5]

8 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

lol, this same fan base that joins the Marlins and Brewers fan bases as the ONLY THREE FAN BASES IN ALL OF BASEBALL who have NEVER experienced watching their team make consecutive playoff appearances.  

And thus the fans have abandoned the team.

[Iwritecode]

58 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And thus the fans have abandoned the team.

Which should be not be surprising at all.

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

Which should be not be surprising at all.

It doesn't surprise me at all.  This is the fan base we have always had.

[Iwritecode]

20 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It doesn't surprise me at all.  This is the fan base we have always had.

It's the same type of fan base a lot of teams have.

[Eminor3rd]

1 minute ago, Iwritecode said:

It's the same type of fan base a lot of teams have.

Nearly all, in fact. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Iwritecode said:

It's the same type of fan base a lot of teams have.

Which is why there are only a few teams that can spend through adversity out there. 

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Which is why there are only a few teams that can spend through adversity out there. 

What possible reason would the White Sox have for being an anomaly like the Cubs, Red Sox or Cardinals that draw consistently come hell or high water?

 

Chicago Cubs

2008 3.3 million

2013 2.643 million

2014 2.652 million

20% drop-off (still not back to 3.3 million despite four playoffs in a row, one World Series title...have fallen last two years, in fact)

 

White Sox

2006 2.957 million

2008 2.51 million

2018 1.61 million (after the worst cumulative record in baseball for the last 6 years)

36% dropoff into the heart of the rebuild from 2008...the Cubs essentially have a 16% advantage due to historic Wrigley Field, the area around the park, yuppies, corporate tickets, grandmothers from Iowa and day baseball in the summer.  In fact, the Cubs in 2006 had an advantage in attendance of less than 200,000 over the Sox.

That’s the last season both teams made the playoffs together, 2008.

Edited October 23, 2018 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What possible reason would the White Sox have for being an anomaly like the Cubs, Red Sox or Cardinals that draw consistently come hell or high water?

 

Chicago Cubs

2008 3.3 million

2013 2.643 million

2014 2.652 million

20% drop-off (still not back to 3.3 million despite four playoffs in a row, one World Series title...have fallen last two years, in fact)

 

White Sox

2006 2.957 million

2008 2.51 million

2018 1.61 million (after the worst cumulative record in baseball for the last 6 years)

36% dropoff into the heart of the rebuild from 2008...the Cubs essentially have a 16% advantage due to historic Wrigley Field, the area around the park, yuppies, corporate tickets, grandmothers from Iowa and day baseball in the summer.  In fact, the Cubs in 2006 had an advantage in attendance of less than 200,000 over the Sox.

That’s the last season both teams made the playoffs together, 2008.

You tell me.  I am not the one who keeps saying that the Sox are a major market team with a major market fan base.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You tell me.  I am not the one who keeps saying that the Sox are a major market team with a major market fan base.

Then why don’t they get competitive balance compensation picks like the Cardinals or Tigers?

[Iwritecode]

11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What possible reason would the White Sox have for being an anomaly like the Cubs, Red Sox or Cardinals that draw consistently come hell or high water?

The Red Sox and Cardinals aren't really anomalies though. Historically, their attendance falls pretty much in line with the success/failure of their teams. But they've have a lot more success than failure over the last couple of decades, and their attendance figures show that.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then why don’t they get competitive balance compensation picks like the Cardinals or Tigers?

So no?

[Iwritecode]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You tell me.  I am not the one who keeps saying that the Sox are a major market team with a major market fan base.

The Sox are absolutely in a major market. But the fan base is simply a typical fan base. You can't simply compare us with other major market fan bases because they they've all had a lot more recent success. You have to compare us with every other team in MLB (except the anomaly that is the Cubs). And when you do that, we really aren't any different. Team is bad = lower attendance. Team is good = higher attendance.

 

I'm not even sure what we are arguing anymore... 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Iwritecode

[SCCWS]

On 10/22/2018 at 11:35 AM, Eminor3rd said:

While it’s certainly plausible, this is a weird claim to make given that none of us have any knowledge at all about how well the Sox group sales and corporate partnerships departments are performing. 

 

I live in New England so I don't have a feel for it. But I know the Red Sox have a ton of corporate tickets. Do you work for a living?? How many vendors offer tickets to fans in the workplace. That is a sign of how popular corporate tickets are. I can tell you that back around 2003 I was in Chicago on business and LaSalle bank offered to take me to a Cubs game so I knew they had corporate tics.  Teams that have a lot of corporate tickets do not experience the ups and downs of attendance. 

You are a board moderator. Do the White Sox post turn-style attendance or ticket sale attendance?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, SCCWS said:

 

I live in New England so I don't have a feel for it. But I know the Red Sox have a ton of corporate tickets. Do you work for a living?? How many vendors offer tickets to fans in the workplace. That is a sign of how popular corporate tickets are. I can tell you that back around 2003 I was in Chicago on business and LaSalle bank offered to take me to a Cubs game so I knew they had corporate tics.  Teams that have a lot of corporate tickets do not experience the ups and downs of attendance. 

You are a board moderator. Do the White Sox post turn-style attendance or ticket sale attendance?

 

 

I believe MLB is all based on ticket sales.

[Dick Allen]

23 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

 

I live in New England so I don't have a feel for it. But I know the Red Sox have a ton of corporate tickets. Do you work for a living?? How many vendors offer tickets to fans in the workplace. That is a sign of how popular corporate tickets are. I can tell you that back around 2003 I was in Chicago on business and LaSalle bank offered to take me to a Cubs game so I knew they had corporate tics.  Teams that have a lot of corporate tickets do not experience the ups and downs of attendance. 

You are a board moderator. Do the White Sox post turn-style attendance or ticket sale attendance?

 

 

Most season ticket accounts are corporate. You might be surprised where you would be able to sit if you wanted some lower level boxes. Not nearly as close as you would think. 

What would be interesting is to see how many companies hold on to their tickets during the losing. They cannot partially be written off anymore. If no one is using them, they might dump them. I do know at my company they have some sweet ones about 4 rows behind the Sox dugout, and if the executives or sales people aren't using them, they raffle them off. There is always a lot of entries.

[Eminor3rd]

2 hours ago, SCCWS said:

 

I live in New England so I don't have a feel for it. But I know the Red Sox have a ton of corporate tickets. Do you work for a living?? How many vendors offer tickets to fans in the workplace. That is a sign of how popular corporate tickets are. I can tell you that back around 2003 I was in Chicago on business and LaSalle bank offered to take me to a Cubs game so I knew they had corporate tics.  Teams that have a lot of corporate tickets do not experience the ups and downs of attendance. 

You are a board moderator. Do the White Sox post turn-style attendance or ticket sale attendance?

 

 

I work in corporate sponsorship activation for a baseball team, and it’s extremely rare for a company to purchase tickets based on fandom/the state of the team — they’re used as sales tools or company benefits more often than not. While it’s possible that geographical interest can wane enough that the tickets become less desireable as benefits, the reality is that most buyers are interested because the product fits in their budget and with the scale of their distribution plans. For example, if you have 200 employees and want to invest in making them all feel like they get a special privilege for being a part of your company, buying four full season tickets in a spot that your average employee can’t afford, then treating them all to a night out on the company dime is a pretty cost-effective solution. 

In my experience (with three teams now), the level of success we’ve seen in corporate sales has been much more dependent on the quality of our sales force than the state of the team.  I don’t think you’d be able to guage the success of that revenue stream anecdotally. It’s possible the White Sox could be very successful or very unsuccessful in that arena, completely regardless of how well the team is performing on the field. 

And no, the public never gets to see these numbers. Both understandably and unfortunately. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Eminor3rd
Erroneous typograph

[Greg Hibbard]

On 10/18/2018 at 9:13 PM, Cyrano said:

You all are acting like this is new.  

Take a look at this.  The White Sox have been providing the poorest product in baseball since the beginning of baseball.

The lowest percentage of playoff appearance among all teams.  I believe they have 9 total appearances.  2008,2005,2000,1993, 1983, 1959, 1919,1917,1906.

I hate to drag the discussion back from the abyss of attendance, but this post from a few pages ago really bothers me.

Yes, the White Sox had an era from 1920-1982 where they made the playoffs just once, which was the worst of probably any franchise by far.

Since then they've made the playoffs 5 times.

Here's all the teams that haven't gone to the playoffs more than the White Sox since 1983:

Milwaukee (3), Kansas City (4), Cincinnati (5), Miami (2), Seattle (4), Tampa Bay (4), Expos/Nationals (4), Padres (5), Rockies (5). Yes I realize a few of those teams weren't born until well after 1983.

A handful of other teams have gone 6 times since 1983 (Arizona, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh). It seems to me that 5-6-7 playoff appearances is about the median for baseball teams over the past 35 years.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the mighty New York Yankees only went to the postseason 5 times during the 30 year stretch of 1965-1994.

[Jack Parkman]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Then why don’t they get competitive balance compensation picks like the Cardinals or Tigers?

They should, but MLB won't give it to them for some strange reason. The Sox are NOT the Mets or Angels. The size of the NY and LA metro areas larger enough than the Chicago metro area to get a significant boost. 

NY Metro: 20.5 M

LA Metro 13.5M 

Chicago Metro 9.5 M, but when you take into account that the Cubs hold 70% of the market it gets a lot smaller. 

9.5* 0.3= 2.85M. That is the potential market.

Twin Cities metro area is 3.5M. 

When you take into account market share, the Sox have a smaller market than the Twins. If you were to rank market size in just the ALC, it would be the following: 

1. Tigers

2. Twins 

3. Sox

4. Indians

5. Royals. 

If the Indians and Royals get Competitive Balance Picks, the Sox should too. 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Iwritecode]

 

22 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They should, but MLB won't give it to them for some strange reason. The Sox are NOT the Mets or Angels. The size of the NY and LA metro areas larger enough than the Chicago metro area to get a significant boost. 

NY Metro: 20.5 M

LA Metro 13.5M 

Chicago Metro 9.5 M, but when you take into account that the Cubs hold 70% of the market it gets a lot smaller. 

9.5* 0.3= 2.85M. That is the potential market.

Twin Cities metro area is 3.5M. 

When you take into account market share, the Sox have a smaller market than the Twins. If you were to rank market size in just the ALC, it would be the following: 

1. Tigers

2. Twins 

3. Sox

4. Indians

5. Royals. 

If the Indians and Royals get Competitive Balance Picks, the Sox should too. 

 

In 2006 the Sox had just under 3 million fans and the Cubs had just over 3 million. If both teams are good, there are plenty of people willing to go to the games.

It took the Twins opening a new stadium to break the 3 million mark for the first time ever. And that quickly wore off as they've gone down almost every year since.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I hate to drag the discussion back from the abyss of attendance, but this post from a few pages ago really bothers me.

Yes, the White Sox had an era from 1920-1982 where they made the playoffs just once, which was the worst of probably any franchise by far.

Since then they've made the playoffs 5 times.

Here's all the teams that haven't gone to the playoffs more than the White Sox since 1983:

Milwaukee (3), Kansas City (4), Cincinnati (5), Miami (2), Seattle (4), Tampa Bay (4), Expos/Nationals (4), Padres (5), Rockies (5). Yes I realize a few of those teams weren't born until well after 1983.

A handful of other teams have gone 6 times since 1983 (Arizona, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh). It seems to me that 5-6-7 playoff appearances is about the median for baseball teams over the past 35 years.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the mighty New York Yankees only went to the postseason 5 times during the 30 year stretch of 1965-1994.

Ok, you started in 1983 so I did the math starting in 1983. In 1983 there were 4 teams in the playoffs, in 1994 there were 0, in 1995 that ballooned to 8, and it went to 10 in 2012. Since 1983, therefore, there have been 250 playoff spots available.

I totaled up the number of teams that played in each season - counting the 2 expansions to figure out, on average, how many years would each franchise go between a playoff appearance if everything was random.

On average, right now there are 10 spots and 30 teams, so if everything was random right now each team would make the playoffs 1x every 3 years. Pushing that back in time, I find that over the time period starting in 1983, average performance overall would be just under 1 in 4. 

The average franchise playing over that full time period would have 8.789 playoff appearances in the stretch from 1983 to 2018.