So is no one falling on the sword for 2018?

[caulfield12]

40 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Funny what you can accomplish with fan support that gives you time to build the right way.  The thing that never gets said is that Sox managements impatience is largely a product of an impatient fan base wanting results right now.  They were scared to go through a rebuilding process because they knew they would hemorrage fans and viewers... that has largely been proven true.

What other fan base in MLB is blamed for the team's failures other than the White Sox?

Did Houston support the Astros by buying tickets or watching on their RSN in 2012~2014?  Not at all.

It's like blaming Sears' customers for them going out of business, MySpace blaming Facebook, etc.  If you're not willing to do what it takes to provide the fans more value for their money, they will turn elsewhere with their entertainment dollars. Quite simple, really.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I cannot complain about the idea of trading away prospects as a way to get players - that is a big part of what the Brewers did. Your statement that the Brewers weren't a well thought of farm system - here's bleacherreport putting them at #5 in baseball last year in the 2nd half, hhttps://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/31277/2017-prospects-organizational-rankings/ere's BP ranking them 3rd overall last season. They cashed in that talent in trades for guys like Yelich and Soria. Brinson, who was the top guy in the Yelich trade, was a top 20, maybe top 10 guy. Also on their list of 2017 top prospects - Josh Hader. The Rockies drafted and developed Blackmon, Arenado out of their key guys.

They got Hader from Houston who got him from Baltimore.

 

[greg775]

14 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Prospects are so over-valued this days that I fundamentally believe a team should pivot and leverage the overvaluation of prospects. I do agree with you that player development is key. 

Eloy has to be the real deal or we might as well just give up. I think most people are expecting Eloy to be one of the top five players in the game fairly quickly. If he's not a standout, a star, again we might as well forget about hyping prospects.

[whitesoxbrad]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

What other fan base in MLB is blamed for the team's failures other than the White Sox?

Did Houston support the Astros by buying tickets or watching on their RSN in 2012~2014?  Not at all.

It's like blaming Sears' customers for them going out of business, MySpace blaming Facebook, etc.  If you're not willing to do what it takes to provide the fans more value for their money, they will turn elsewhere with their entertainment dollars. Quite simple, really.

You are correct , like I said not to long ago we Sox fans expect little and receive less.

[GreenSox]

20 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Prospects are so over-valued this days that I fundamentally believe a team should pivot and leverage the overvaluation of prospects. I do agree with you that player development is key.  However, the Brewers were not a well thought of farm system (look back the last couple years at the BA ratings).  The Rockies as well; heck the Rockies literally went bullpen spending and FA dumpster diving this past off-season.  

That may be, but you still need high quality prospects to trade or a front office that can scout and has trade negotiation skills.  The Brewers may not have a great system, but they leveraged a spent Lucroy plus some so-so prospects into Christian Yelich.    They got Hader and Domingo Santana for a broken down Carlos Gomez and the  replaceable Fiers.  The Soria trade was likely more of the Sox scouting (or lack thereof).
Sox are lacking in scouting/development (both in effort/energy and in skill) and in trade negotiation.
And the premium may be on trading the prospects; but you still have to hoard the elite prospects.  And that involves knowing which are really elite and which just have the rep but aren't elite.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What other fan base in MLB is blamed for the team's failures other than the White Sox?

Did Houston support the Astros by buying tickets or watching on their RSN in 2012~2014?  Not at all.

It's like blaming Sears' customers for them going out of business, MySpace blaming Facebook, etc.  If you're not willing to do what it takes to provide the fans more value for their money, they will turn elsewhere with their entertainment dollars. Quite simple, really.

Pretty sure there is no real comparison between retails sales and professional sports.  That is completely and utter ridiculous.

[caulfield12]

Fine, Lindor is not technically international, we just don't know how to scout Puerto Rico like other organizations can somehow  manage to do.  Or Japan/Korea.

Btw, Lindor went at exactly the same slot as Fulmer.

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, whitesoxbrad said:

You are correct , like I said not to long ago we Sox fans expect little and receive less.

lol, this same fan base that apparently needs multiple consecutive playoff appearances to show up expects little. 

[greg775]

58 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Funny what you can accomplish with fan support that gives you time to build the right way.  The thing that never gets said is that Sox managements impatience is largely a product of an impatient fan base wanting results right now.  They were scared to go through a rebuilding process because they knew they would hemorrage fans and viewers... that has largely been proven true.

This isn't right. First of all our fan base is too small to factor into management's decisions about anything. Secondly our fans may be impatient (sort of) but really the attendance was actually pretty decent for a 100 loss team. The Cell was rarely a morgue despite baseball's insistence on making us play Cleveland, KC, Minnie, Detroit so many times. Ugh. Boring! As well as baseball not yet attacking the millennial problem of how boring it is and how long it takes to complete a game.

Again I know we're near the bottom of MLB attendance But we averaged 19,862 per game with a payroll of 75 million. We had 1.6 million fans compared to Cleveland's 1.9, Minnie's 1.9, KC's 1.7. Yeah we are a big city but cmon our fans aren't that bad. I think I read somewhere our TV ratings suck but geez you can't blame the fans for not wanting to watch us lose 100 games. The team still is rolling in dough and the overall worth of the franchise is HUGE. Your love of management is perplexing. Balta is also a mod and he rips the team enough. 

Don't get me wrong. If you told me we could win it all in 2005 and stink the next 13 years yeah I'd have sold out for that cause it's that difficult to win it all. I give management all the credit in the world for 05. Kenny, Jerry, all of 'em. But right now I'd say our fan support is still pretty good for what management has put on the field. Cmon ... please respond. We drew 1.6 mill. with a 75 mill payroll. That ain't so bad, southsider.

Edited October 18, 2018 by greg775

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Pretty sure there is no real comparison between retails sales and professional sports.  That is completely and utter ridiculous.

Name the other professional sports franchises (or just MLB) that blame the fans for their failures.  This should be good.

The Montreal Expos and Marlins? Seems they had Loria in common.  The A' s and RAYS? TERRIBLE STADIUMS.  Maybe the Pirates, but they never gave fans a pennant winner and dealt their two franchise players in McCutcheon and Cole away.

At least the Indians did something to bring their fans back after betraying them twice. Something called repeated success that we are unfamiliar with.

Other teams also give their fans weather protection (Brewers/Rangers/Astros/Mariners/Jays/D-Backs) or much better climates in general for the sport, like the Padres.

Edited October 18, 2018 by caulfield12

[Greg Hibbard]

1 hour ago, Fan O'Faust said:

What the White Sox accomplished in the 22 year carve out of the current owner's 38 year history of owning the team, the Cubs under their current owner have accomplished in the last four years.  

Yes, the Cubs have had a nice 4 year run. Do you disagree that the White Sox were one of the 7-8 best franchises from 1990-2010?

[Greg Hibbard]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Absolutely. If you multiple it by 1.5 that’s still a 1.0 WAR in 660 appearances. That still comes up scrub. Fangraphs term, not mine.

Ok, so let me be clear on your take here. Another aspect of my point is that Palka was able to put up the equivalent of a 1.0 season in his very first 449 PAs. I think more importantly though, his HR/PA and WAR vastly improved from his first 200 PAs compared to his last 250. Do you think that improvement is luck/illusory or growth?

 

[elrockinMT]

I had to think about this topic for a bit. I am not sure anyone had to fall on the sword for the team record. After all we were warned that it would not be pretty in 2018

[bubba phillips]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

What other fan base in MLB is blamed for the team's failures other than the White Sox?

Did Houston support the Astros by buying tickets or watching on their RSN in 2012~2014?  Not at all.

It's like blaming Sears' customers for them going out of business, MySpace blaming Facebook, etc.  If you're not willing to do what it takes to provide the fans more value for their money, they will turn elsewhere with their entertainment dollars. Quite simple, really.

 

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Pretty sure there is no real comparison between retails sales and professional sports.  That is completely and utter ridiculous.

Actually it's a relevant comparison because it spans all industries.  It's a simple tenet:  if the product is no good, you don't buy it.  It applies to Sears, the White Sox, and any other failing or failed enterprise.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Ok, so let me be clear on your take here. Another aspect of my point is that Palka was able to put up the equivalent of a 1.0 season in his very first 449 PAs. I think more importantly though, his HR/PA and WAR vastly improved from his first 200 PAs compared to his last 250. Do you think that improvement is luck/illusory or growth?

 

Sure, but shouldn't that apply to Giolito and Moncada at the end of 2017?

Delmonico at the end of last season?

Do we still know anything conclusive about Davidson, Yolmer or Avi, other than the fact they're all "flawed" players, especially the first two?

Can we really count on Omar Narvaez to replicate his offensive "breakout" in 2019?

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

 

Actually it's a relevant comparison because it spans all industries.  It's a simple tenet:  if the product is no good, you don't buy it.  It applies to Sears, the White Sox, and any other failing or failed enterprise.

Except in places like just across town...

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Name the other professional sports franchises (or just MLB) that blame the fans for their failures.  This should be good.

The Montreal Expos and Marlins? Seems they had Loria in common.  The A' s and RAYS? TERRIBLE STADIUMS.  Maybe the Pirates, but they never gave fans a pennant winner and dealt their two franchise players in McCutcheon and Cole away.

At least the Indians did something to bring their fans back after betraying them twice. Something called repeated success that we are unfamiliar with.

Other teams also give their fans weather protection (Brewers/Rangers/Astros/Mariners/Jays/D-Backs) or much better climates in general for the sport, like the Padres.

This is reality.  Teams with more resources have more options.  This fan base means the team doesn't have as many options as others.  Some wear that as a badge of honor, yet are upset when it works against them. 

[southsider2k5]

25 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

 

Actually it's a relevant comparison because it spans all industries.  It's a simple tenet:  if the product is no good, you don't buy it.  It applies to Sears, the White Sox, and any other failing or failed enterprise.

Are people throwing decades long temper tantrums about Sears too?  Burning their Sears clothing to protest Sears leaving their town?  Creating local message boards to complain about the assistant managers of their local Sears team?  Are they talking about scouting the neighborhoods for the next up and coming cashiers?

Seriously, it is an awful comparison.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Except in places like just across town...

The Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers are all iconic franchises.  Perhaps you can add the Cardinals/Giants (Silicon Valley), and Braves because of TBS/TNT (Turner Broadcasting).

You also have the two oldest and certainly most historic stadiums in the sport...and a million other advantages that have been belabored over the years.

But the other 25-ish franchises still have to operate more like typical businesses, and not tourism juggernauts.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

The Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers are all iconic franchises.  Perhaps you can add the Cardinals/Giants (Silicon Valley), and Braves because of TBS/TNT (Turner Broadcasting).

You also have the two oldest and certainly most historic stadiums in the sport...and a million other advantages that have been belabored over the years.

But the other 25-ish franchises still have to operate more like typical businesses, and not tourism juggernauts.

So why the double standard for expectations?

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is reality.  Teams with more resources have more options.  This fan base means the team doesn't have as many options as others.  Some wear that as a badge of honor, yet are upset when it works against them. 

But that still doesn't explain why it hasn't it prevented the Twins, Indians, Royals and Tigers from having more success than the White Sox over the last 20 years.

You can argue Ilitch was willing to spend well into deficits each year, but that's no longer the case with his son in charge.

 

Which teams that are perennial losers get consistent attendance/financial support?  The Mariners and Padres?   Well, you have a much nicer stadium, a LOT more revenue coming in from ROOT Sports than we get...but their attendance the last 3-5 years has pretty much been in the bottom 18-22 as well.  The Pads are investing all their money into a rebuild, too.

Edited October 19, 2018 by caulfield12

[Cyrano]

You all are acting like this is new.  

Take a look at this.  The White Sox have been providing the poorest product in baseball since the beginning of baseball.

The lowest percentage of playoff appearance among all teams.  I believe they have 9 total appearances.  2008,2005,2000,1993, 1983, 1959, 1919,1917,1906.

[Thad Bosley]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Funny what you can accomplish with fan support that gives you time to build the right way.  The thing that never gets said is that Sox managements impatience is largely a product of an impatient fan base wanting results right now.  They were scared to go through a rebuilding process because they knew they would hemorrage fans and viewers... that has largely been proven true.

It never gets said (with the lone exception by you) because it’s utter nonsense.  Blaming the continued futility of guys in the front office, who get paid the big bucks to produce a quality product on the field but don’t, on the fans defies reason.  It ain’t our fault, pal.

Your decades-long grudge against the fans really skews your thinking on this matter.  To even merely suggest our fan base, who has only seen our Sox go to the playoffs a scant five times since the 1959 World Series, is somehow “impatient” is absolute crazy talk.  It’s the exact opposite.  We are arguably THE most patient fan base around, what with so little we’ve had to cheer on during October our entire lives.  

[caulfield12]

And even the Marlins have those 1987 and 1993 championships.

The Brewers were in terrible straits in the 70's and for most of the 80's....with the exception of 1982, and then for the last decade enjoying all of the advantages of having your former owner as MLB Commissioner and all the ancillary benefits that accrued to that franchise, as well as a wonderful new stadium.

The Mariners, Brewers, Padres, Reds, Indians, Orioles, Pirates, Twins and Tigers should all be considered "peers" of the White Sox, although the Sox have/share the largest media market of those particular teams.

TB, Oakland and KC are "anomalies" in the first tier.

Also surprising the Braves are 'only' 13th after their run of success in the 90's and early 00's.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox play in a bandbox. Todd Steverson has been a hitting coach for 5 seasons. At least 3 of those seasons the Sox were trying to win. They have yet to score the league average in runs scored since he took over. Either he isn’t a very good coach, the people making out the roster aren’t good at recognizing hitters, ownership can’t afford better players, or some combination of the three. Some sort of change has to be made.