Your Offseason Plan

[iWiN4PreP]

16 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

Kershaw, Keuchel, J.A. Happ, Charlie Morton, Nathan Eovaldi...hell, even Hyun Jin Ryu or Wade Miley.

Morton is old and extremely dangerous to sign. Eovaldi will likely go for more than he's worth. Happ is also v. old. 

Keuchel looks GOOD/Great but might get a big money contract. Kershaw likely isn't leaving LAD, but if he is, I'd be interested -- although lots of risk there too.

[TheFutureIsNear]

8 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Marwin Gonzalez is going to get like $60 million. Joel Sherman today speculated that Nathan Eovaldi could get 4 years and $80 million. Some of these prices are way off IMO. 

You might be right. Not claiming to be an expert or have any inside info. I will say a lot of experts predicted big contracts for guys who sat home for a while last of season as well. The game has seemed to have shifted from overpaying huge contracts. You really think Gonzalez's 2017 gets him that much? Seems like it's pretty obvious that its an outlier year. But if some team overpays, good for him. 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Depends on how you view the Moncada / Madrigal situation.  If you assume both of those guys will be major league regulars (which I do), then I think we potentially have 3B covered.  If not, I’m more optimistic of us going out and signing a star 3B (Machado, Arenado, Rendon, etc) then us committing to a 5+ year contract to a legit TOR starter with Reinsdorf as owner.  Therefore, we’ll likely have to develop our own TOR starters and Kopech & Cease are our best chances at that.  I’d much rather move someone like Rodon, even I had to throw in a prospect because the odds of him being here after 2021 are slim to none IMO.

I'm fine with trading Rodon in a deal for Senzel, but I just don't think Rodon fits the Reds timeline to compete. Rodon needs to go to a contender if we are going to move him. Maybe Rodon to a team like the Dodgers who may lose Ryu, for a package around their catching prospect Keibert Ruiz, who was 19 when he made AA ball this year and is in a Dodgers system that is deep with catchers.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa872528&position=C

 

[caulfield12]

Even Pecota, a projection system that typically underestimates the Sox, was off by 11 full games.

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by caulfield12

[wrathofhahn]

19 hours ago, Whitesox27 said:

Kershaw, Keuchel, J.A. Happ, Charlie Morton, Nathan Eovaldi...hell, even Hyun Jin Ryu or Wade Miley.

No to old soft tossers.

[Bob Sacamano]

I don't think I would want Ryu. Seems like he always spends time on the dl.

[Baron]

Frankly I want them to do absolutely nothing except sign fillers. I don't want Rick Hahn to be the one spending large sum of money that we have. 

[ChiSoxFanMike]

15 minutes ago, Baron said:

Frankly I want them to do absolutely nothing except sign fillers. I don't want Rick Hahn to be the one spending large sum of money that we have. 

Then who will?

[bmags]

41 minutes ago, Baron said:

Frankly I want them to do absolutely nothing except sign fillers. I don't want Rick Hahn to be the one spending large sum of money that we have. 

I am starting to feel same way.

[Whisox05]

1 hour ago, Baron said:

Frankly I want them to do absolutely nothing except sign fillers. I don't want Rick Hahn to be the one spending large sum of money that we have. 

So then who do you want spending that money cause hahn is the gm? Still probably has to go through kenny and Jerry to get the OKs. Hahn was finally given the chance to rebuild and will see it somewhat through to see how it goes so with that he has to spend money filling in areas. If you don't want him spending the money then you might need to adopt another team cause he going to

[GreenSox]

3 hours ago, Baron said:

Frankly I want them to do absolutely nothing except sign fillers. I don't want Rick Hahn to be the one spending large sum of money that we have. 

I basically agree unless a superstar falls into the Sox lap.

Irrespective of Hahn, adding all of these 2nd-4th tier FAs would just stop the rebuild prematurely. They could have done that in 2016 without rebuilding.

[Bob Sacamano]

3 hours ago, Baron said:

Frankly I want them to do absolutely nothing except sign fillers. I don't want Rick Hahn to be the one spending large sum of money that we have. 

Care to elaborate?

[Baron]

Just now, aeichhor said:

So then who do you want spending that money cause hahn is the gm? Still probably has to go through kenny and Jerry to get the OKs. Hahn was finally given the chance to rebuild and will see it somewhat through to see how it goes so with that he has to spend money filling in areas. If you don't want him spending the money then you might need to adopt another team cause he going to

God I love these comments. If you dont like the person in charge or what he's done so far you better leave. I didn't realize I had to be all on board with this team or not at all. Makes me all warm and fuzzy. 

 

To put it plainly for the people asking. I think he'll screw it up. I've been present throughout all his offseasons. There's been very little to celebrate regarding his free agent signings performances. My preference would be for his replacement to take over and finish this. In any other sport Hahn or for that matter any other team he probably would have been fired. 

 

Ok lets break it down a little more. Does anyone think we're going to get a fair shake at any of the top free agents? I've been pessimistic at that possibility the entire time. Especially coming after this season. The one guaranteed thing we have going on for us is lots of money. Unfortunately we're not exclusive in that regard. Do you trust Rick Hahn with the 2nd tier of free agents? For me absolutely not. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Baron

[caulfield12]

Just once in a while, it would be nice to get a Walker Buehler instead of Carson Fulmer.  Sale’s exploits for Boston will have to suffice.  It’s like 2005 and picking Chris are sufficient to get everyone lifetime contracts.

Or just one outfielder we developed who could be one of the three best in Boston or LA.

[Whisox05]

1 hour ago, Baron said:

God I love these comments. If you dont like the person in charge or what he's done so far you better leave. I didn't realize I had to be all on board with this team or not at all. Makes me all warm and fuzzy. 

 

To put it plainly for the people asking. I think he'll screw it up. I've been present throughout all his offseasons. There's been very little to celebrate regarding his free agent signings performances. My preference would be for his replacement to take over and finish this. In any other sport Hahn or for that matter any other team he probably would have been fired. 

 

Ok lets break it down a little more. Does anyone think we're going to get a fair shake at any of the top free agents? I've been pessimistic at that possibility the entire time. Especially coming after this season. The one guaranteed thing we have going on for us is lots of money. Unfortunately we're not exclusive in that regard. Do you trust Rick Hahn with the 2nd tier of free agents? For me absolutely not. 

First of you said you don't want hahn spending the money. Well he is so you are just going to have to deal with it. 

 

I like how alot of people try to put what hahn did in the past as all on him and he would have been fired for his actions. You guys do realize he has bosses and has to get the ok to sign guys. When you have a limit of how much you can spend then you are limited to what you can buy. Again still has to pass Jerry's ok. Hahn wanted to do a rebuild before but someone got an idea to try to compete with a hand full of good players, one of the worst farm systems in the game and a limited budget to use. I'm still giving hahn a pass cause he finally was given full reign to actually go through the rebuild and start from scratch of one of the best farm systems in baseball plus a ton of money to insert player where needed. Now you get to see if he can put together a winning club or not. 

Sox may have a fair shake but at the end of the day money talks. Sox will have plenty to go around. I'm sure they are going to do their due diligence but the question will be can they close on it. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by aeichhor

[wrathofhahn]

24 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Just once in a while, it would be nice to get a Walker Buehler instead of Carson Fulmer.  Sale’s exploits for Boston will have to suffice.  It’s like 2005 and picking Chris are sufficient to get everyone lifetime contracts.

Or just one outfielder we developed who could be one of the three best in Boston or LA.

Well we do have talent in the minors but honestly most of their drafts have been unimpressive. We always focus for the safe guys and then wonder why there isn't the upside well it's mainly because we are drafting college guys with obvious flaws.

You look at the teams that sort of do the best in the draft and they are the ones unafraid to take chances on HS and invest heavily in the Latin market. Like the Rays. Dodgers. Yankees.

[Baron]

Just now, aeichhor said:

First of you said you don't want hahn spending the money. Well he is so you are just going to have to deal with it. 

 

I like how alot of people try to put what hahn did in the past as all on him and he would have been fired for his actions. You guys do realize he has bosses and has to get the ok to sign guys. When you have a limit of how much you can spend then you are limited to what you can buy. Again still has to pass Jerry's ok. Hahn wanted to do a rebuild before but someone got an idea to try to compete with a hand full of good players, one of the worst farm systems in the game and a limited budget to use. I'm still giving hahn a pass cause he finally was given full reign to actually go through the rebuild and start from scratch of one of the best farm systems in baseball plus a ton of money to insert player where needed. Now you get to see if he can put together a winning club or not. 

Sox may have a fair shake but at the end of the day money talks. Sox will have plenty to go around. I'm sure they are going to do their due diligence but the question will be can they close on it. 

Do you realize how silly your first point is and previous statements? It's the equivalent to saying if you don't like something the President does get out of America. I don't like the GM but that doesn't mean I wont support the team when it's time to play baseball.  You just asserted obvious points that are clear in every sport and have been discussed numerous times on here. Well done. I'm still not giving him a pass. He doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Baron

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, Baron said:

Do you realize how silly your first point is and previous statements? It's the equivalent to saying if you don't like something the President does get out of America. I don't like the GM but that doesn't mean I wont support the team when it's time to play baseball.  You just asserted obvious points that are clear in every sport and have been discussed numerous times on here. Well done. I'm still not giving him a pass. He doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned. 

That’s all fair, but you saying you don’t want Rick Hahn spending money is saying you don’t want the White Sox spending money.  At some point, you’ve got to give Hahn to prove himself one last time.  There really isn’t an alternative.

[bmags]

44 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Well we do have talent in the minors but honestly most of their drafts have been unimpressive. We always focus for the safe guys and then wonder why there isn't the upside well it's mainly because we are drafting college guys with obvious flaws.

You look at the teams that sort of do the best in the draft and they are the ones unafraid to take chances on HS and invest heavily in the Latin market. Like the Rays. Dodgers. Yankees.

After nearly a decade of drafting all upside and no baseball skills they switched to maxed out college players that look good until AA.

I think one of the problems with the white Sox execution is there is no overarching philosophy or strategy that everyone commits to. It seems like they just hire people they like and let them do their thing, and maybe it’s not amazing but they seem to be doing a good job and because your president and gm have no real guidance on what they want you are never performing against their expectations. Not until years and years of inadequacy eventually get you phased out.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s all fair, but you saying you don’t want Rick Hahn spending money is saying you don’t want the White Sox spending money.  At some point, you’ve got to give Hahn to prove himself one last time.  There really isn’t an alternative.

Counterpoint, what if some FAs he signs provide some, if marginal, improvement that papers over another year of so-so development. There can’t just be record improvement next year, there needs to be urgent improvement of the system as a whole.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, bmags said:

Counterpoint, what if some FAs he signs provide some, if marginal, improvement that papers over another year of so-so development. There can’t just be record improvement next year, there needs to be urgent improvement of the system as a whole.

That’s another fair point, but he should be held accountable primarily for the development of the young talent.  If Moncada, Lopez, & Giolito all struggle again, then I think his fate should be sealed.  And I hope people realize I’m not defending Hahn, I’m just accepting the reality that our options are he’s better than history suggests or he sucks and the rebuild is likely in trouble.  For now I’m going to hope it’s the former and support him doing what he sees best for the organization.

[bmags]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s another fair point, but he should be held accountable primarily for the development of the young talent.  If Moncada, Lopez, & Giolito all struggle again, then I think his fate should be sealed.  And I hope people realize I’m not defending Hahn, I’m just accepting the reality that our options are he’s better than history suggests or he sucks and the rebuild is likely in trouble.  For now I’m going to hope it’s the former and support him doing what he sees best for the organization.

No this is same page with me. Development isn’t linear, but last year was a dip. This front office needs to do everything possible to turn that around next year. If they don’t, they should go. It’s not enough to have the right ideas, like “we can’t compete in our situation, let’s use our assets to rebuild”, they have to be able to execute on their ideas. They just need urgency.

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 10/26/2018 at 8:51 AM, thxfrthmmrs said:

What I got from this thread is plan: sign everyone for less than what they will actually get so it would fit in our payroll, never mind that White Sox isn't a preferred destination for most of these players.

Yeah, no shit.

If we're going to dream on things that will likely never happen, why not dream big?

My plan:

Fire: Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn, Chris Getz, Doug Laumann [yeah, he's still listed as receiving a check for some sort of work or another on the website], Jeremy Haber, Ricky Renteria, Daryl Boston, Nick Capra, Don Cooper, Todd Steverson, Joe McEwing, and Curt Hasler.

Interview the following candidates for Kenny's job: 

1. Matt Arnold, Brewers assistant GM/VP. Despite Milwaukee not having a top 3 farm system in recent years [IIRC], and despite not having piles of cash to blow, and despite being in the NL Central with a massive juggernaut in the scrubs and a traditional powerhouse in the cardinals, and despite being one of the least-favored desinations for FA talent, the Brewers won their division. His experience in a small market could prove useful in a similar organization that is averse to spending BIG money in FA, and has a smallish share of a big market in the SOX.

2, and 3: From the "Epstein" tree, Jason McLeod, scrubs senior VP; and Jared Porter, Arizona assistant GM. Both have scouting bonafides, either in Boston or the north side. McLeod has the additional benefit of not fvkcing up the development of Bryant [unlike the moronic handling of MLB's K machine Moncada], as well as having run some decent drafts in Boston as well.

4. Kim Ng, former Dodgers exec, current MLB exec, former Yankees assistant GM, former White Sox intern, U of C MBA.

5. Dan Kantrovitz, As assistant GM, former Cardinals scouting director, has some sort of masters degree from Harvard.

 

Hire whoever is the best of this lot, and have them:

A. Un-fuck what looks like a stalled rebuild. 

B. Bring the overall operation of this organization into the 21st Century.

C. Conduct a proper search for the on-field coaching staff. [This team hasn't had one of those since whenever Ozzie was hired], and

D. [Most Importantly] Restore PRIDE in the White Sox, as this front office has made this team a laughingstock of MLB for what seems like forever.

 

My view is that neither Kenny nor Rick should have been kept on board to clean up their mistakes. Since the fire sale, which [to their credit] was apparently bountiful, the "development stage" of the rebuild seems to have been bungled, and horribly, IMO.

[Two-Gun Pete]

23 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s another fair point, but he should be held accountable primarily for the development of the young talent.  If Moncada, Lopez, & Giolito all struggle again, then I think his fate should be sealed.  And I hope people realize I’m not defending Hahn, I’m just accepting the reality that our options are he’s better than history suggests or he sucks and the rebuild is likely in trouble.  For now I’m going to hope it’s the former and support him doing what he sees best for the organization.

I hated the way Moncada was handled.

He came to us from Boston, having K'ed in ~31% of his PAs in AA. I thought THEN that he should have started 2017 in AA with the goal to reduce his Ks into a ~25% range, before finishing 2017 in Charlotte, again with the aim of him KEEPING the K-Rate down. I also thought that Opening Day of 2018 should have been his White Sox debut, NOT mid-season 2017. Exactly what was that supposed to accomplish, other than Hahn having the opportunity to snark about letting reporters post to Twitter that Moncada was coming up?

 

Instead, they stupidly started him in Charlotte in 2017, which is a notoriously hitter-friendly park, which likely papered over his inability to avoid the strikeout. Now, some 200 games into his MLB career, his value [by fWAR] is mainly in the fact that he's fast and he plays 2B. Meanwhile, a season and a half of his controllable years have been squandered, and we STILL don't know for sure if he's a good player or not. Hell, he had to catch fire [thanks to an unsustainable .452 BaBIP] during garbage time to even make this last season look respectable.

This is a real fvkcing problem if they can't turn the former #1 prospect into anything more than a speedy strikeout machine. Hahn, and Getz, and Williams should be held to account, but they likely won't be.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I hated the way Moncada was handled.

He came to us from Boston, having K'ed in ~31% of his PAs in AA. I thought THEN that he should have started 2017 in AA with the goal to reduce his Ks into a ~25% range, before finishing 2017 in Charlotte, again with the aim of him KEEPING the K-Rate down. I also thought that Opening Day of 2018 should have been his White Sox debut, NOT mid-season 2017. Exactly what was that supposed to accomplish, other than Hahn having the opportunity to snark about letting reporters post to Twitter that Moncada was coming up?

 

Instead, they stupidly started him in Charlotte in 2017, which is a notoriously hitter-friendly, which likely papered over a clear and present inability to avoid the strikeout. Now, some 200 games into his MLB career, his value [by fWAR] is mainly in the fact that he's fast and he plays 2B. Meanwhile, a season and a half of his controllable years have been squandered, and we STILL don't know for sure if he's a good player or not.

This is a real fvkcing problem if they can't turn the former #1 prospect into anything more than a speedy strikeout machine. Hahn, and Getz, and Williams should be held to account, but they likely won't be.

I think you’re wrong with that last paragraph.  Reinsdorf is loyal, but he’s not going to sit back while all the young talent flops.  This is really Hahn’s last opportunity to put it all together.  The first wave of prospects didn’t exactly inspire a ton of confidence, but I’m not writing them off just yet.  My only real concern at the moment is that Hahn has made no changes to the coaching staff that failed to get these young guys to take significant leaps forward.  Once he does that, he moves the arrow of accountability one step closer to himself.  Hopefully the young guys all make big strides in year two, but if not I’ll be pissed if Hahn tries to blame the coaching staff at that point.  If he feels like these kids underperformed, then coaching changes should be warranted now.  Given his poor track record, there should be a sense of urgency to right the ship.  I’m all for loyalty, but at the end of the day accountability always has to be part of the equation.