Your Offseason Plan

[Baron]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s all fair, but you saying you don’t want Rick Hahn spending money is saying you don’t want the White Sox spending money.  At some point, you’ve got to give Hahn to prove himself one last time.  There really isn’t an alternative.

He's going to get the chance. Like I said my ideal offseason would be minimal signings plus another year of sucking and him getting the boot with another high draft pick. Chances are though he's probably going to try and fail to go after Harper/Manny. Then overpay some of the middle tier free agents. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Baron

[WBWSF]

30 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, no shit.

If we're going to dream on things that will likely never happen, why not dream big?

My plan:

Fire: Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn, Chris Getz, Doug Laumann [yeah, he's still listed as receiving a check for some sort of work or another on the website], Jeremy Haber, Ricky Renteria, Daryl Boston, Nick Capra, Don Cooper, Todd Steverson, Joe McEwing, and Curt Hasler.

Interview the following candidates for Kenny's job: 

1. Matt Arnold, Brewers assistant GM/VP. Despite Milwaukee not having a top 3 farm system in recent years [IIRC], and despite not having piles of cash to blow, and despite being in the NL Central with a massive juggernaut in the scrubs and a traditional powerhouse in the cardinals, and despite being one of the least-favored desinations for FA talent, the Brewers won their division. His experience in a small market could prove useful in a similar organization that is averse to spending BIG money in FA, and has a smallish share of a big market in the SOX.

2, and 3: From the "Epstein" tree, Jason McLeod, scrubs senior VP; and Jared Porter, Arizona assistant GM. Both have scouting bonafides, either in Boston or the north side. McLeod has the additional benefit of not fvkcing up the development of Bryant [unlike the moronic handling of MLB's K machine Moncada], as well as having run some decent drafts in Boston as well.

4. Kim Ng, former Dodgers exec, current MLB exec, former Yankees assistant GM, former White Sox intern, U of C MBA.

5. Dan Kantrovitz, As assistant GM, former Cardinals scouting director, has some sort of masters degree from Harvard.

 

Hire whoever is the best of this lot, and have them:

A. Un-fuck what looks like a stalled rebuild. 

B. Bring the overall operation of this organization into the 21st Century.

C. Conduct a proper search for the on-field coaching staff. [This team hasn't had one of those since whenever Ozzie was hired], and

D. [Most Importantly] Restore PRIDE in the White Sox, as this front office has made this team a laughingstock of MLB for what seems like forever.

 

My view is that neither Kenny nor Rick should have been kept on board to clean up their mistakes. Since the fire sale, which [to their credit] was apparently bountiful, the "development stage" of the rebuild seems to have been bungled, and horribly, IMO.

Your heart/plan is  in the right place. Still I think it would be better if JR  sold the team. If he sold the team Hahn and company would be gone.

[Baron]

Just now, WBWSF said:

Your heart/plan is  in the right place. Still I think it would be better if JR  sold the team. If he sold the team Hahn and company would be gone.

I mean sure but that's even more out there. This team wont be sold. Better chance of that staff/front office clearing. 

 

I like Two Gun Pete's offseason. The other main reason which I'm glad he brought up that I don't want to spend money is to see where this rebuild is actually at. Was 2018 a good year development wise? Didn't look that way. To me it looks too early to spend money. Lots of players futures still up in the air. 

[Whisox05]

1 hour ago, Baron said:

Do you realize how silly your first point is and previous statements? It's the equivalent to saying if you don't like something the President does get out of America. I don't like the GM but that doesn't mean I wont support the team when it's time to play baseball.  You just asserted obvious points that are clear in every sport and have been discussed numerous times on here. Well done. I'm still not giving him a pass. He doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned. 

Congrats on being a moo with the rest 

[Chicago White Sox]

25 minutes ago, Baron said:

I mean sure but that's even more out there. This team wont be sold. Better chance of that staff/front office clearing. 

 

I like Two Gun Pete's offseason. The other main reason which I'm glad he brought up that I don't want to spend money is to see where this rebuild is actually at. Was 2018 a good year development wise? Didn't look that way. To me it looks too early to spend money. Lots of players futures still up in the air. 

There should be three goals this offseason IMO:

1. Pursue the whale free agents (Machado & Harper) and try to land one
2. Add veterans on short-term deals (2 years or less) to fill major holes
3. Continue to add talent to the system by flipping non-essential pieces

I feel very strongly that we need to start adding some veterans and begin developing a winning culture to aid the development of our young players.  I’m probably in the minority here, but I believe that constant losing can cause guys to press and not make the adjustments needed for long-term success.  Additionally, I think it’s important to make young guys earn their spots and not just hand full-time roles to them.

As such, I’m all for adding some veterans if the terms make sense.  Right now, I think we need to add two starters, one RH reliever, a 3B, and probably an OF.  I’m simply not feeling the internal options we have at those spots and would prefer to give those jobs to capable veterans that will take some pressure off the kids and serve as bridges to the next wave of prospects.  Again, the key is these have to be short-term deals.  If so, I’m all for spending some money now.

[pcq]

YoMo has proven to be a record-breaker and you have to respect that. There may be an HoF exhibit and future marketing with the Nike swoosh. 

[Baron]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

There should be three goals this offseason IMO:

1. Pursue the whale free agents (Machado & Harper) and try to land one
2. Add veterans on short-term deals (2 years or less) to fill major holes
3. Continue to add talent to the system by flipping non-essential pieces

I feel very strongly that we need to start adding some veterans and begin developing a winning culture to aid the development of our young players.  I’m probably in the minority here, but I believe that constant losing can cause guys to press and not make the adjustments needed for long-term success.  Additionally, I think it’s important to make young guys earn their spots and not just hand full-time roles to them.

As such, I’m all for adding some veterans if the terms make sense.  Right now, I think we need to add two starters, one RH reliever, a 3B, and probably an OF.  I’m simply not feeling the internal options we have at those spots and would prefer to give those jobs to capable veterans that will take some pressure off the kids and serve as bridges to the next wave of prospects.  Again, the key is these have to be short-term deals.  If so, I’m all for spending some money now.

Certainly your first paragraph is something to consider as far as the culture goes. It definitely can effect a team. I just don't see the purpose of even trying to attempt to sign Machado. Seems like a waste of time to me. It would be a great day as of a fan if we did sign him. But there seems to be too many obstacles in the way that would prevent that from happening. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Baron said:

He's going to get the chance. Like I said my ideal offseason would be minimal signings plus another year of sucking and him getting the boot with another high draft pick. Chances are though he's probably going to try and fail to go after Harper/Manny. Then overpay some of the middle tier free agents. 

We can certainly win with second tier free agents and smart “minor” trades that unearth valuable players, see 2003-2010.

It’s just that Hahn has shown zero evidence of the ability to do so.  Who’s his best free agent acquisition?  We know the bad ones.  Unless you count Abreu (a different classification of FA, more KW/Paddy), it’s probably David Robertson...who was overpaid to leave NY.  Other than Eaton/Santiago, there haven’t been many great trades, either.  Q for Jimenez/Cease currently looks like the second best.

At any rate, you need a lot more than Swarzak, Kahnle, Narvaez and Palka to go right over a 2-3 year span...because those are the bottom 10 players on a playoff roster, not frontline guys.

[wrathofhahn]

Is Machado supposed to be part of a winning culture? Is he really the type of player you want setting an example for others?

The thing is Machado is a very good player but even if he continues to build upon his career year next years team has too many holes in too many spots to go anywhere. Particularly, as it relates to the bullpen and starting pitching.

The other thing Machado does is it puts us on an accelerated timetable and honestly I don't want our future planned around his timetable. It needs to happen organically we will know when the roster is ready to compete it will be obvious to everyone.

As far as the rest goes like I said earlier 2WAR players seemed to be the sweetspot last FA. Those guys signed for basically nothing between 4-8 million. Well we can fill alot of holes with that money and have some pieces to move down the line without the pressure of forcing an unrealistic timetable.

I mentioned many of the names earlier but there are other guys too. Moose. Lucroy. You had guys like Adam Lind forced to accepted minor league deals. The main thing is I don't want to see any of this 4A garbage anymore. We know we need an OF. We know we need a legit DH. We know we need a 3B. We also know we need a SP probably two. We also know we need a couple of bullpen arms.

Go out and spend 50 million or so and bring in somestop gap guys. If they rebound you'll get some decent prospects come deadline time and you'll give the fans something worth watching with professional hitters and people that can pitch.

[greg775]

11 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Go out and spend 50 million or so and bring in somestop gap guys. If they rebound you'll get some decent prospects come deadline time and you'll give the fans something worth watching with professional hitters and people that can pitch.

I like it, but that's not what this rebuild is about. My perception (if it's wrong tell me) is the Sox prefer tanking (use the word stinking if you don't like tanking) and getting the highest draft pick possible while playing what I consider stiffs at several positions to go with studs Moncada, Anderson, Abreu. My take is they are loving saving all this money on payroll during the suck years. Ultimately the plan is to dominate starting in 2020. But til then they aren't going to be signing "gap guys" and paying them real money. No way IMO is that in the plan. It's suck until the prospects are ready, then dominate; nothing in between.

Edited October 28, 2018 by greg775

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Is Machado supposed to be part of a winning culture? Is he really the type of player you want setting an example for others?

The thing is Machado is a very good player but even if he continues to build upon his career year next years team has too many holes in too many spots to go anywhere. Particularly, as it relates to the bullpen and starting pitching.

The other thing Machado does is it puts us on an accelerated timetable and honestly I don't want our future planned around his timetable. It needs to happen organically we will know when the roster is ready to compete it will be obvious to everyone.

As far as the rest goes like I said earlier 2WAR players seemed to be the sweetspot last FA. Those guys signed for basically nothing between 4-8 million. Well we can fill alot of holes with that money and have some pieces to move down the line without the pressure of forcing an unrealistic timetable.

I mentioned many of the names earlier but there are other guys too. Moose. Lucroy. You had guys like Adam Lind forced to accepted minor league deals. The main thing is I don't want to see any of this 4A garbage anymore. We know we need an OF. We know we need a legit DH. We know we need a 3B. We also know we need a SP probably two. We also know we need a couple of bullpen arms.

Go out and spend 50 million or so and bring in somestop gap guys. If they rebound you'll get some decent prospects come deadline time and you'll give the fans something worth watching with professional hitters and people that can pitch.

We can’t wait forever for the guys in AA to hit the scene.  Moncada, Anderson, Lopez, Rodon, & Gioltio are all burning service time.  Adding Machado speeds things up, but in a good way.  I think with a few other smart additions we can be competitors by 2020 without jeopardizing our long term plan. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We can’t wait forever for the guys in AA to hit the scene.  Moncada, Anderson, Lopez, Rodon, & Gioltio are all burning service time.  Adding Machado speeds things up, but in a good way.  I think with a few other smart additions we can be competitors by 2020 without jeopardizing our long term plan. 

Not unless every one of those guys breaks out and a lot of other things go right. Go look at that 2020 roster - if Kopech is a 4th or 5th starter and Cease is a rookie, you need Giolito and Lopez to be the caliber of #1 and #2 top of the rotation starters or your rotation is weak. Your bullpen is weak because it's so young, at best it's inconsistent. Your offense is ok, maybe even good, but certainly not great. You need the bullpen to develop rapidly, the rotation to develop rapidly, and some real breakouts out of Moncada and the catchers before you can even talk about being on the page with the big guys.

We are not in the era where an 84 win team is a competitive roster any more. Go look at these Red Sox, Astros, Dodgers. These are incredible teams. You aren't competitive with them until your team is "incredible". 

[Jerksticks]

I think it’s important to sign Harper so we have arguably the best corner outfielders for 6-7 years.  Let Engel play another year while we wait for Robert or Gonzalez or whoever.  The rest of the outfielders we trade for wherever else we end up lacking.   Sign Arenado.  Burger plays first.  World Series 2020

[tray]

I like jerksticks plan.

I am hoping that Robert and Madrigal start raking in the minors and come up later in 2019.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Not unless every one of those guys breaks out and a lot of other things go right. Go look at that 2020 roster - if Kopech is a 4th or 5th starter and Cease is a rookie, you need Giolito and Lopez to be the caliber of #1 and #2 top of the rotation starters or your rotation is weak. Your bullpen is weak because it's so young, at best it's inconsistent. Your offense is ok, maybe even good, but certainly not great. You need the bullpen to develop rapidly, the rotation to develop rapidly, and some real breakouts out of Moncada and the catchers before you can even talk about being on the page with the big guys.

We are not in the era where an 84 win team is a competitive roster any more. Go look at these Red Sox, Astros, Dodgers. These are incredible teams. You aren't competitive with them until your team is "incredible". 

Well first off I said “with a few other smart additions”.  Machado alone won’t cut it.  But we have plenty of money to spend to fill gaps and put ourselves in a position to succeed if our young players start to break out.

Second, our division absolutely sucks and is without question the weakest in baseball.  The Tigers & Royals should represent easy wins and the Indians will to continue to decline as they age / lose key players.  I’d be much less optimistic if we were in any other division.

I agree fully need the majority (not all) of the Moncada, Anderson, Rodon, Lopez, & Giolito group need to take a step forward this year and that Jimenez needs to show signs of being the stud we think he can become.  If those things don’t happen, being competitive in 2020 isn’t what I’ll be concerned about, but it’s the overall rebuild.

[wrathofhahn]

2 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I like it, but that's not what this rebuild is about. My perception (if it's wrong tell me) is the Sox prefer tanking (use the word stinking if you don't like tanking) and getting the highest draft pick possible while playing what I consider stiffs at several other positions. My take is they are loving saving all this money on payroll during the suck years. Ultimately the plan is to dominate starting in 2020. But til then they aren't going to be signing "gap guys" and paying them real money. No way IMO is that in the plan. It's suck until the prospects are ready, then dominate; nothing in between.

That is a misnomer because you can get decent prospects by trading guys having good years. Remember that's basically how we got Rutherford. Medeiros is a lesser return but is a former 1st round pick probably has late 2nd to early 3rd round value at this point.

So yeah even though the returns aren't what they once were it's still better to move guys then just tank for draft pick position. You are usually looking at at least one to two interesting guy per trade for a veteran that is performing at a high level. What sort of gets lost in the Astros rebuild is the trades. And of course everyone knows what the Yankees did.

For me anyways roster spots are too valuable to be filled by 4A guys who will never be amount to anything, never be worth anything, and won't be around when you are good. The Rays do a even better job then most teams because what they tend to do is trade the guys who have value from the year before FA then fill them in with stop gaps with FA. If the team stinks they unload the stop gaps at the deadline. If the team is good then they make a run for the playoffs.

[greg775]

Folks I'll say it. This postseason has shown we do not want Machado. Let somebody else deal with his alleged unsportsmanlike play, spiking people and taking out infielders as well as his loafing. Why do we want the guy when we already have a SS (Tim) and second baseman (Moncada) and 3B (Madrigal) for the future. I'd throw the checkbook at Bryce Harper and inform him the Cell is a hitters park.

Just say no to Manny. Harper? Why not? Outbid the Cubs, Phils and Nats.

Edited October 28, 2018 by greg775

[Jerksticks]

9 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Folks I'll say it. This postseason has shown we do not want Machado. Let somebody else deal with his alleged unsportsmanlike play, spiking people and taking out infielders as well as his loafing. Why do we want the guy when we already have a SS (Tim) and second baseman (Moncada) and 3B (Madrigal) for the future. I'd throw the checkbook at Bryce Harper and inform him the Cell is a hitters park.

Just say no to Manny. Harper? Why not? Outbid the Cubs, Phils and Nats.

Yep.  It’s the smarter play, even before learning Machado was a douche.  Signing Harper allows us to use our outfield depth to acquire other assets.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

Is Machado supposed to be part of a winning culture? Is he really the type of player you want setting an example for others?

The thing is Machado is a very good player but even if he continues to build upon his career year next years team has too many holes in too many spots to go anywhere. Particularly, as it relates to the bullpen and starting pitching.

The other thing Machado does is it puts us on an accelerated timetable and honestly I don't want our future planned around his timetable. It needs to happen organically we will know when the roster is ready to compete it will be obvious to everyone.

As far as the rest goes like I said earlier 2WAR players seemed to be the sweetspot last FA. Those guys signed for basically nothing between 4-8 million. Well we can fill alot of holes with that money and have some pieces to move down the line without the pressure of forcing an unrealistic timetable.

I mentioned many of the names earlier but there are other guys too. Moose. Lucroy. You had guys like Adam Lind forced to accepted minor league deals. The main thing is I don't want to see any of this 4A garbage anymore. We know we need an OF. We know we need a legit DH. We know we need a 3B. We also know we need a SP probably two. We also know we need a couple of bullpen arms.

Go out and spend 50 million or so and bring in somestop gap guys. If they rebound you'll get some decent prospects come deadline time and you'll give the fans something worth watching with professional hitters and people that can pitch.

This is what I've been saying for a while but we'll have to see if the prices remain the same. My guess is they won't.  Guys who posters are talking about signing to 1 yr deals is unrealistic ,2 years might even be unrealistic for some of the 2 WAR types.

All I keep hearing is we can't do that we have to keep spots open for our young guys . We can't block anyone. It's only 2 yrs into the rebuild. Don't be impatient . This what a rebuild is like. Money spent is wasted money . It's been my belief that we still need flippable assets and we have to spend money and take some chances if the end result can be getting some higher level minor league guys who have a chance to stick. If that means giving out a few 3 year deals so be it but I'm afraid $50M won't cut it. Starting pitching is always more expensive than we think. If that means taking some chances on guys who have an injury history so be it. There won't be enough bargains on the type of guys you probably want. We'll have to wait and see what happens. If the Escobar signing is any example we might have to hit the market early instead of waiting for bargains on the leftovers.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, tray said:

I like jerksticks plan.

I am hoping that Robert and Madrigal start raking in the minors and come up later in 2019.

Robert is made of glass and at the rate he's going he's 3 years away if he makes it at all. Expecting Madrigal that soon is also unrealistic. Long way to go for both. When each of them has a successful AA season maybe then you can guess a year or 2 from that point.

[oldsox]

9 hours ago, greg775 said:

Folks I'll say it. This postseason has shown we do not want Machado. Let somebody else deal with his alleged unsportsmanlike play, spiking people and taking out infielders as well as his loafing. Why do we want the guy when we already have a SS (Tim) and second baseman (Moncada) and 3B (Madrigal) for the future. I'd throw the checkbook at Bryce Harper and inform him the Cell is a hitters park.

Just say no to Manny. Harper? Why not? Outbid the Cubs, Phils and Nats.

Don't forget his bat throwing incidents.

[cornball]

23 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

There should be three goals this offseason IMO:

1. Pursue the whale free agents (Machado & Harper) and try to land one
2. Add veterans on short-term deals (2 years or less) to fill major holes
3. Continue to add talent to the system by flipping non-essential pieces

I feel very strongly that we need to start adding some veterans and begin developing a winning culture to aid the development of our young players.  I’m probably in the minority here, but I believe that constant losing can cause guys to press and not make the adjustments needed for long-term success.  Additionally, I think it’s important to make young guys earn their spots and not just hand full-time roles to them.

As such, I’m all for adding some veterans if the terms make sense.  Right now, I think we need to add two starters, one RH reliever, a 3B, and probably an OF.  I’m simply not feeling the internal options we have at those spots and would prefer to give those jobs to capable veterans that will take some pressure off the kids and serve as bridges to the next wave of prospects.  Again, the key is these have to be short-term deals.  If so, I’m all for spending some money now.

I agree  most of this as I usually agree with CWS posts.  I think we should try to sign Harper as it sends a message,he is likable and a major face of MLB, in addition to one of the best players in the MLB. A lefty power bat which is always desired by the Sox and a perfect fit on and off the field.  But I also agree with RH, in adding pieces for long term success. Short term players....why?  If we could add Harper, I would like to see at trade with the Braves for one of their lefty starters in AAA to start right away withe the Sox. Then use current players challenge in the minors or majors challenge for the 5th spot this year  

 The whole rebuild will be based on pitching. Lopez and Lucas are essential to the process.  I feel there is enough for the bullpen currently, with starters needing help. Moncada needs to switch to 3rd and promotions need to be accelerated for key pieces like Madrigal, Cease, Dunning and Robert within reason. 2020 is the year to be in playoffs. It will be tough next year. 

[Dam8610]

19 hours ago, greg775 said:

Folks I'll say it. This postseason has shown we do not want Machado. Let somebody else deal with his alleged unsportsmanlike play, spiking people and taking out infielders as well as his loafing. Why do we want the guy when we already have a SS (Tim) and second baseman (Moncada) and 3B (Madrigal) for the future. I'd throw the checkbook at Bryce Harper and inform him the Cell is a hitters park.

Just say no to Manny. Harper? Why not? Outbid the Cubs, Phils and Nats.

 

19 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Yep.  It’s the smarter play, even before learning Machado was a douche.  Signing Harper allows us to use our outfield depth to acquire other assets.  

 

Machado is typically a 6 WAR player. Harper is typically a 4.5 WAR player. You don't sign 75% of the results to an equal or greater contract just because "he's a lefty power bat" or "he has character".

[caulfield12]

Harper is worth how much MORE in terms of marketing/Q rating?

For a franchise like the White Sox, Harper just moves the meter into credibility more than any other (available) player in baseball.

Kershaw, after this World Series...Corbin, nice names...but even they have loads of question marks.  Corbin less so, but he's a completely unknown quantity to most Sox fans.

(On the other hand, since the White Sox are already developing their "Cuban/Latin American" pipeline...have a Hispanic manager and likely a replacement in Vizquel lined up, you can see the argument for tipping the balance in the direction of Machado.  That said, he doesn't really fit into a "role model for young/er" players mode in terms of attitude and professionalism, and Ventura/Renteria both proved to be challenged in getting the most out of players in terms of fundamentals/hustle at different times.  If they were in "win now" mode starting in 2019, there wouldn't be as much hesitation, especially if they had more veterans (Castillo and Shields) to balance out the clubhouse between vets and youngsters like Tim Anderson.

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, Dam8610 said:

 

 

Machado is typically a 6 WAR player. Harper is typically a 4.5 WAR player. You don't sign 75% of the results to an equal or greater contract just because "he's a lefty power bat" or "he has character".

Eh.  Harper is a threat to win an mvp any given year, Machado isn’t.  And yes he’s lefty, and yes he’s a walk machine and power bat.   He also helps the rebuild a lot more by being an outfielder.  

 

He’s also marketable and not as much of a douchebag