11 dead at Pittsburgh synagogue

[Whitesoxin2019]

10 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I probably walked past this guy while he was waiting in line for a Trump event a couple years ago, one happened on Campus.

Waiting for the list of the deceased as our former neighbors and landlord both went there.

Probably more likely to find this guy at a Hillary event. The guy didn’t like trump. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Whitesoxin2019 said:

Probably more likely to find this guy at a Hillary event. The guy didn’t like trump. 

Ummm...no.  He was attacking Jewish people because he blames George Soros and “his cabal” for financially supporting the immigration caravan from Central America, which is completely unsupported by any documented evidence.

While he blames Trump for being too close to Israel and cozying up to Netanyahu, he most assuredly would never be caught dead at a Hillary event.

Just because you’re to the right wing of the political spectrum doesn’t mean you have to agree with Trump.  In fact, 85-90% of current registered Republicans are globalists/corporatists (who seem to be) paying lip service about the loss of American low-educated/lower middle class manufacturing jobs and are very much opposed to tariffs as a tactic (as opposed to using the full leverage of the EU, Japan, Korea and India collectively against China.)

Otherwise, they would be on the same side as Bernie Sanders, not Trump.

[BigSqwert]

13 hours ago, LittleHurt05 said:

It's been going on since the dawn of the country,  look at the history in the movie Gangs of New York.

 

Or read An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States

[Soxbadger]

7 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

This is utter nonsense.

Are you saying a good portion of Israel is not nationalist? And that Zionism is not a real thing? Why is nationalist 'scary'? And socialist not just as scary?

I have relatives that are Jewish and they get extremely defensive when the topic of Israel arises even-though they are American and I fully understand why considering their history. It's their ancestral homeland it's biblical for them.

As far as the rest goes I find it interesting you bring up privilege because when democrats talk about white privilege they use some of the very same language that should sound familiar. They claim whites are born rich. Whites control the means of production. Whites aren't sharing enough of their wealth. Whites give unfair opportunities to their own race. It doesn't take a genius to catch my drift here.

There is no point in arguing otherwise the alt-right is a problem but are we going to pretend the left doesn't have a Farrakhan problem? An Al Sharpton problem? BDS problem? Palenstine problem? I would like to see both parties condemn the antisemitism where it exists and that includes everyone Trump 

 Israel is a different country. I don't necessarily agree with how israeli's act.

But that is a topic that is too far afield. 

Sharpton and Farrakhan aren't President, they are unelectable. Trump has had his chances to try and help stamp out antisemitism, he's failed.

If you dont know why nationalism is scarier than socialism for jewish people, im not sure what to say. For a good part of history Jews were persecuted for being "communists".

[wrathofhahn]

6 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

 Israel is a different country. I don't necessarily agree with how israeli's act.

But that is a topic that is too far afield. 

Sharpton and Farrakhan aren't President, they are unelectable. Trump has had his chances to try and help stamp out antisemitism, he's failed.

If you dont know why nationalism is scarier than socialism for jewish people, im not sure what to say. For a good part of history Jews were persecuted for being "communists".

They were prosecuted because they Jewish to be clear not for any other reason. All nationalism means to me is as a government advocating for the welfare of your citizens and having civic pride/national pride. The Flag is nationalist. The Anthem is nationalist. Independence day is nationalist.

Nationalism/Patriotism or whatever you want to call it is one of the few things that bind us all together because if you don't believe in America. Believe in your fellow Americans. Want to see America succeed on the world stage. Then how do you remain a country longterm when you have diverse values and are a melting pot? In some ways party affiliation has outstripped national identity where people walk around saying they are members of a resistance and not my president. To me that is much more dangerous then nationalism and was essentially how the first civil war was started.

Moving on to the act itself. Obviously it's heinous and it deserves a response for that to happen both sides to need to unite and confront these elements on both ends of the political spectrum I hear on the news people blaming Trump for his rhetoric like somehow heated rhetoric between democrats and republicans causes antisemtism. It's ridiculous. These people aren't being radicalized by Trump they are being radicalized by other racists on 4chan, Gab, Voat, facebook, etc. Hell the shooter hated Trump and thought he was being controlled by members of his family and the Jewish people in his administration. He never voted for Trump but even if he did that isn't/shouldn't have been the point and the people who are blaming Trump are just playing politics.

What is needed is a bipartisan effort to confront antisemitism on both the alt right and fringe left. That means Farrakhan needs to be condemned and confronted by the left. That means Al Sharpton needs to make clear the person he was then is not who he is now. That is why the radical BDS and apartheid movement as it relates to Israel needs to be condemned. As of now  far left views racism through the lens of a power structure basically it's impossible for the privileged or "oppressor" to experience racism from a marginalized group or "oppressed" and when it occurs it is often mocked, denied, ignored or minimized.

 

 

 

[lostfan]

Farrakhan has been disavowed and denounced numerous times a long time ago already. He's not in mainstream politics.

[NorthSideSox72]

52 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

They were prosecuted because they Jewish to be clear not for any other reason. All nationalism means to me is as a government advocating for the welfare of your citizens and having civic pride/national pride. The Flag is nationalist. The Anthem is nationalist. Independence day is nationalist.

Nationalism/Patriotism or whatever you want to call it is one of the few things that bind us all together because if you don't believe in America. Believe in your fellow Americans. Want to see America succeed on the world stage. Then how do you remain a country longterm when you have diverse values and are a melting pot? In some ways party affiliation has outstripped national identity where people walk around saying they are members of a resistance and not my president. To me that is much more dangerous then nationalism and was essentially how the first civil war was started.

 

You are conflating Patriotism and Nationalism. Patriotism is being proud of your country, nationalism is defending your country no matter what it does. Your bolded statement is Patriotism, not Nationalism.

You can go Google the history of the words if you'd like, but it's important to note that the two words were originally used almost interchangeably, with the only real difference being Nationalism seeing your country in some way above others. Patriotism doesn't require that. But then Nationalism was sort of co-opted by movements like the Nazis and other facist regimes to support for a unified battle against "the other" by fomenting the belief that culture = nation, or more specifically Majority Culture = Nation. When you make that leap, all minorities are, in essence, enemies.

Understanding the history is key here. I think you honestly don't see the distinction, but there is one, and it is quite important.

[wrathofhahn]

1 hour ago, lostfan said:

Farrakhan has been disavowed and denounced numerous times a long time ago already. He's not in mainstream politics.

Somehow he still gets invited to the events and still meets all the movers and shakers including being a guest of the CBC numerous times (http://www.finalcall.com/peacemission/lawmakers08-06-2002.htm) but you are right distancing yourself from Farrakhan is while important is ultimately meaningless if you haven't also distanced yourself from his ideals. Things like BDS. 911 conspiracies. Apartheid Israel.  The same goes for Republicans when it comes to prominent alt right figures condemning them individually like for example David Duke is important.

But's more important to condemn and reject the hate they preach. I don't know what can be done it's tricky when it comes to the 1st amendment but at the very least we need to be monitoring these people and their supporters. We need to go after these people with the same zeal as domestic terrorists who maybe planing a terrorist attack in the name of ISIS or Al Quieda (sic) because that is what this person was a terrorist.

Edited October 29, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[lostfan]

That first picture is from before Obama was president (he denounced Farrakhan during the campaign and Farrakhan isn't exactly a fan of Obama - plus their houses in Hyde Park are literally walking distance from each other) and I don't know how you figure Aretha Franklin's funeral was some kind of Democratic-sponsored event. She was a Black American cultural icon, so that's the crowd who was at her funeral. Black Americans have a complicated relationship with Farrakhan but that's a whole other topic. His anti-Semitism is well known and he's been rightly been condemned for it over and over again.

Edited October 29, 2018 by lostfan

[StrangeSox]

It's important to remind people in a week with three separate right wing white nationalist terrorist attacks that actually Both Sides Are Bad

 

E: lmao comparing political opposition to Trump to the treasonous slavers and the decades of conflict running up to the civil war. Go crack open a history book.

Edited October 29, 2018 by StrangeSox

[caulfield12]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/28/opinions/trump-hypocrisy-hate-glaring-obeidallah/index.html

Another glaring example was in May 2016, after Julia Ioffe, a Jewish journalist, wrote an article viewed by some as critical of Melania Trump. In response to the article, the journalist was subjected to a barrage of vile anti-Semitic threats, including a graphic depicting the journalist in a Nazi concentration camp and a barrage of messages on her phone, in which excerpts of Adolph Hitler speeches were played.

 

When Trump was asked point blank by CNN's Wolf Blitzer about the anti-Semitic death threats being sent to the journalist by several self-professed Trump supporters, Trump responded, "Oh, I don't know about that. I don't know anything about that. You mean fans of mine?"

 

Blitzer then explained, "Supposed fans of posting these very angry -- but your message to these fans is?" Here was Trump's opportunity to send a clear, passionate message to his supporters that there was no place for anti-Semitism in American political discourse. But what was Trump's response? He stated, "I don't have a message to the fans." And then, shockingly, Trump pivoted to slam the journalist with the comment, "A woman wrote an article that's inaccurate."

 

 

Actually, when Trump said, "I don't have a message to the fans," he was misleading. Trump was sending a clear message that he had no problem with anti-Semitism being used as a tool to silent Jewish journalists. (In fact, other Jewish journalists were targeted with anti-Semitic hate for criticizing Trump after this interview with Blitzer.)

 

 

My favorite is saying "it's actually the Democrats in the South in the 1940's/50's/60's who were the racists...the Democrats were founders of the KKK...and what about Woodrow Wilson?" as if those party principles and the Republicans of the Lincoln Era had anything to do with their modern incarnations at all.

In fact, the Dixiecrats basically split off completely from the Democrats (see George Wallace, 1968) and the South became "the solid South" which meant consistently voting for Republican candidates ever since the 1980 presidential election of Reagan.

 

[whitesoxfan99]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/caravan-lie-sparked-massacre-american-jews/574213/

[caulfield12]

Average age of the eleven synagogue victims = 74.0

[Quin]

This is my friend's congregation. It was stoked because the shooter believed HIAS, a Jewish org dedicated to helping refugees, was bring a caravan to to America to kill people.

Anyone raving about the caravan has nothing but empty words.

[Soxbadger]

18 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

They were prosecuted because they Jewish to be clear not for any other reason. All nationalism means to me is as a government advocating for the welfare of your citizens and having civic pride/national pride. The Flag is nationalist. The Anthem is nationalist. Independence day is nationalist.

Nationalism/Patriotism or whatever you want to call it is one of the few things that bind us all together because if you don't believe in America. Believe in your fellow Americans. Want to see America succeed on the world stage. Then how do you remain a country longterm when you have diverse values and are a melting pot? In some ways party affiliation has outstripped national identity where people walk around saying they are members of a resistance and not my president. To me that is much more dangerous then nationalism and was essentially how the first civil war was started.

Moving on to the act itself. Obviously it's heinous and it deserves a response for that to happen both sides to need to unite and confront these elements on both ends of the political spectrum I hear on the news people blaming Trump for his rhetoric like somehow heated rhetoric between democrats and republicans causes antisemtism. It's ridiculous. These people aren't being radicalized by Trump they are being radicalized by other racists on 4chan, Gab, Voat, facebook, etc. Hell the shooter hated Trump and thought he was being controlled by members of his family and the Jewish people in his administration. He never voted for Trump but even if he did that isn't/shouldn't have been the point and the people who are blaming Trump are just playing politics.

What is needed is a bipartisan effort to confront antisemitism on both the alt right and fringe left. That means Farrakhan needs to be condemned and confronted by the left. That means Al Sharpton needs to make clear the person he was then is not who he is now. That is why the radical BDS and apartheid movement as it relates to Israel needs to be condemned. As of now  far left views racism through the lens of a power structure basically it's impossible for the privileged or "oppressor" to experience racism from a marginalized group or "oppressed" and when it occurs it is often mocked, denied, ignored or minimized.

 

 

 

That is what nationalism means to you. Its not what it means to Jewish people. Due to their persecution over history, they have never really been part of any "nation." Every country they lived in they were never really fully accepted. This is why they developed their own languages (Yiddish) and why they will refer to themselves as "culturally" jewish, even though they dont necessarily believe in the religion. It would be odd to hear someone say they are an agnostic or atheist Catholic. But you will absolutely find people who say they are "atheist" Jews.

Its hard to understand oppression until you are one of them. 

[Whitesoxin2019]

I’m so happy the filibuster is back. 

[raBBit]

On 10/28/2018 at 7:42 PM, lostfan said:

Farrakhan has been disavowed and denounced numerous times a long time ago already. He's not in mainstream politics.

The poster you were responding to referred to him as fringe which would qualify as an antonym to mainstream.

[raBBit]

On 10/28/2018 at 9:29 PM, StrangeSox said:

It's important to remind people in a week with three separate right wing white nationalist terrorist attacks that actually Both Sides Are Bad

 

E: lmao comparing political opposition to Trump to the treasonous slavers and the decades of conflict running up to the civil war. Go crack open a history book.

A.) I thought this type of rhetoric wasn't allowed anymore?

B.) The "bomber" isn't even white. Trying to make everything about race creates division. 

[raBBit]

On 10/29/2018 at 1:54 PM, Soxbadger said:

It would be odd to hear someone say they are an agnostic or atheist Catholic.

I get your point that being Jewish is being part of a culture here in the state but I am from the south side of Chicagoland and there are so many people who were raised catholic who are now agnostic/atheist. Nothing odd about hearing that in my life. 

[StrangeSox]

 

[Soxbadger]

53 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I get your point that being Jewish is being part of a culture here in the state but I am from the south side of Chicagoland and there are so many people who were raised catholic who are now agnostic/atheist. Nothing odd about hearing that in my life. 

Interesting. My mom and her family all went to Catholic school, Ive never met anyone ever refer to their culture as "catholic." Ive heard them call themselves Irish, Italian, but never once did the disassociate from the country they immigrated from and just call themselves "Catholic." But maybe there are Catholics who dont identity with where there family immigrated from, I guess its possible that people on the southside dont call themselves "Irish" and instead just refer to themselves as "Catholic."

 

[raBBit]

9 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Interesting. My mom and her family all went to Catholic school, Ive never met anyone ever refer to their culture as "catholic." Ive heard them call themselves Irish, Italian, but never once did the disassociate from the country they immigrated from and just call themselves "Catholic." But maybe there are Catholics who dont identity with where there family immigrated from, I guess its possible that people on the southside dont call themselves "Irish" and instead just refer to themselves as "Catholic."

I wasn't saying that people refer to the culture as catholic just that people who were raised catholic call themselves agnostic/atheist now.

[NorthSideSox72]

1 hour ago, raBBit said:

A.) I thought this type of rhetoric wasn't allowed anymore?

B.) The "bomber" isn't even white. Trying to make everything about race creates division. 

Whether he is 100% white himself or not, the bomber has espoused white nationalist views. It's all out there on social media.

 

[StrangeSox]

6 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Whether he is 100% white himself or not, the bomber has espoused white nationalist views. It's all out there on social media.

 

The other two attacks I referenced, the synagogue shooter and the guy who shot two black people at a grocery store after failing to get into a black church and told a white person "whites don't shoot whites," were more explicit about their white nationalist motivations. The bomber seemed to espouse a whole lot of pro-Trump/anti-media stuff, but he did also get in on the anti-Semetic George Soros stuff (among other conspiracy theories like pizzagate) and of course Soros was his first target. Per his coworkers, he self-labeled as a white supremacist.

You can't exactly remove race/ethnicity from racially/ethnically motivated attacks carried out by white supremacists. 

[StrangeSox]

54 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Interesting. My mom and her family all went to Catholic school, Ive never met anyone ever refer to their culture as "catholic." Ive heard them call themselves Irish, Italian, but never once did the disassociate from the country they immigrated from and just call themselves "Catholic." But maybe there are Catholics who dont identity with where there family immigrated from, I guess its possible that people on the southside dont call themselves "Irish" and instead just refer to themselves as "Catholic."

 

I think "cultural Catholic" and "culture Christian" are becoming more of a thing these days as religious adherence falls off among younger people, but they don't have the history of cultural but agnostic/atheistic judaism and probably not the depth either. Neither my wife or I are religious but we still put up a Christmas tree etc. It's not going to mean as much when we're identifying with the majority culture compared to Jews identifying with their own minority culture though.