The Moncada / Madrigal Situation

[Chicago White Sox]

So let me start this off by saying that I was a huge supporter of drafting Madrigal this past year.  Even with Yoan in place at 2B, you always go BPA and just figure out roles later.  Well, I think given Madrigal’s potential to move fast and 2019 likely to be another lost season competitively speaking, now is the time to start thinking through this.

Here are my thoughts.  1) Madrigal’s best position is 2B.  He can be a high end defender there, whereas his arm will always limit him on the left side of the infield.  2) Moncada’s best defensive tools are his speed & arm.  While the latter would play up well at 3B, it’s not really ideal from a range standpoint.  3) There are a lot of stud free agents that will be hitting free agency in the coming two off-seasons.  Machado & Arenado are both highly attractive options if we plan on making a significant investment in a star free agent.  4) CF is a massive hole right now (sorry Adam Engel) and the prospect who is closest to filling that spot (Basabe) may not even be ready for the job by opening day 2020.

Based on those four points above, I truly believe moving Moncada to CF is the best past forward.  I feel his tools will play up much better there than 2B or 3B.  And if this is what we actually believe, then now is the time to do it.  There will be a learning curve and 2019 provides a great opportunity to get him acclimated.

What are your thoughts on this?  How would you guys handle the situation?

[ChiSoxJon]

Non-situation until Madrigal is up in 2-3 years assuming Moncada pans out

[Chicago White Sox]

26 minutes ago, ChiSoxJon said:

Non-situation until Madrigal is up in 2-3 years assuming Moncada pans out

2 or 3 years?  Madrigal is probably the most major league ready guy in the entire 2018 draft, at least on the positional side of things.  If he’s not up by some point in the 2020 season then things have gone terribly wrong with him.  And honestly, I think he may force his way up this year. 

Regardless, do you really want Moncada learning a new position while we’re trying to compete?  I guess for me personally, I don’t think 2B is his best spot long-term and would love to see what’s he capable of in CF.  

And a much smaller consideration to me is moving Moncada to CF now opens up a spot for Jose Rondon at 2B.  Of all our fringe major league ready prospects, he is far and away the most intriguing guy we got.  Would love to see what he’s capable of in 2019.

[ron883]

Once Madrigal starts shredding the minors, we can worry about it. Once that happens we flip him or bring him up upon an injury

[ron883]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

2 or 3 years?  Madrigal is probably the most major league ready guy in the entire 2018 draft, at least on the positional side of things.  If he’s not up by some point in the 2020 season then things have gone terribly wrong with him.  And honestly, I think he may force his way up this year. 

Regardless, do you really want Moncada learning a new position while we’re trying to compete?  I guess for me personally, I don’t think 2B is his best spot long-term and would love to see what’s he capable of in CF.  

And a much smaller consideration to me is moving Moncada to CF now opens up a spot for Jose Rondon at 2B.  Of all our fringe major league ready prospects, he is far and away the most intriguing guy we got.  Would love to see what he’s capable of in 2019.

I think his ceiling is highest at 2B. He has some great potential there defensively. I get we have Madrigal, but we have plenty of CF options. Robert, LuGo and basabe have chances to play there. 

[Dick Allen]

As long as Madrigal doesn’t bust, Moncada will be playing 3B or the OF. And it shouldn’t be too much of a learning curve for him. Many players have switched positions without issue. Tim Raines was a 2B.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

I would much rather see Moncada in CF than 3B, but I think it's too early to be having this conversation. Everything will sort itself out assuming both guys are as good as advertised.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Hot FiRe said:

I think his ceiling is highest at 2B. He has some great potential there defensively. I get we have Madrigal, but we have plenty of CF options. Robert, LuGo and basabe have chances to play there. 

See, I disagree that 2B is his highest ceiling position defensively.  His 70 grade arm is not being put optimal use there.  I think he could be an incredibly valuable defensive OF with his speed & arm and I think he’d make much fewer mental mistakes out there.

Also, I get we have a lot of CF options in the minors, but most of them are high variance prospects at AA or below.  And the three you mentioned all have arms that make them capable of playing a corner OF spot.  Having too many starting caliber OFs in a couple years would be a good problem to have.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

As long as Madrigal doesn’t bust, Moncada will be playing 3B or the OF. And it shouldn’t be too much of a learning curve for him. Many players have switched positions without issue. Tim Raines was a 2B.

Remember though, the Red Sox had already switched Moncada his last season in the minors to 3B because of Pedroia .  His then brief ML stint was also at 3B  He struggled in a small sample. Once he was acquired, Hahn said he was moving him back to 2nd. Now at that point the White Sox did not have anyone blocking him at 3B so I assume Hahn felt he was better at 2nd.  Moncada also said at the time he was glad he was going back to 2nd. So moving him to 3B might be an issue. If he is hitting well then maybe it is worth a try. If he is still having SO issues, any change might affect his offense as well. 

[oldsox]

25 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Remember though, the Red Sox had already switched Moncada his last season in the minors to 3B because of Pedroia .  His then brief ML stint was also at 3B  He struggled in a small sample. Once he was acquired, Hahn said he was moving him back to 2nd. Now at that point the White Sox did not have anyone blocking him at 3B so I assume Hahn felt he was better at 2nd.  Moncada also said at the time he was glad he was going back to 2nd. So moving him to 3B might be an issue. If he is hitting well then maybe it is worth a try. If he is still having SO issues, any change might affect his offense as well. 

If he is still have SO issues (and hitting sub .240), Sox won't need him in the outfield or at third base. 

[BlackSox13]

The only hangup I have with Moncada moving to the OF is how well will his legs hold up?

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

2 or 3 years?  Madrigal is probably the most major league ready guy in the entire 2018 draft, at least on the positional side of things.  If he’s not up by some point in the 2020 season then things have gone terribly wrong with him.  And honestly, I think he may force his way up this year. 

Regardless, do you really want Moncada learning a new position while we’re trying to compete?  I guess for me personally, I don’t think 2B is his best spot long-term and would love to see what’s he capable of in CF.  

And a much smaller consideration to me is moving Moncada to CF now opens up a spot for Jose Rondon at 2B.  Of all our fringe major league ready prospects, he is far and away the most intriguing guy we got.  Would love to see what he’s capable of in 2019.

I'm always more conservative about where I think guys should start than this organization, and yes, Madrigal had an injury this year, but Madrigal's stats in the minors currently are the stats of a guy who will need several years down there in order to develop a power stroke. I'm not just talking about home runs, I'm talking about driving the ball for doubles or even singles - he wasn't doing that at all with our organization this year, he was putting the ball on the ground. I can absolutely see a setup where Madrigal starts back in A ball next year and is on a path where late 2021 is reasonable for him, and that wouldn't be anything going terribly wrong, that would be him having to work on a specific part of his game that involves physical development. If that was an injury thing then next year he'll look very different to start the year, and then we can start talking about this as an actual problem. If he needs time in the weight room and time to change his swing before we start seeing extra base hits from him, then that could be a multi-year program.

[Chicago White Sox]

51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm always more conservative about where I think guys should start than this organization, and yes, Madrigal had an injury this year, but Madrigal's stats in the minors currently are the stats of a guy who will need several years down there in order to develop a power stroke. I'm not just talking about home runs, I'm talking about driving the ball for doubles or even singles - he wasn't doing that at all with our organization this year, he was putting the ball on the ground. I can absolutely see a setup where Madrigal starts back in A ball next year and is on a path where late 2021 is reasonable for him, and that wouldn't be anything going terribly wrong, that would be him having to work on a specific part of his game that involves physical development. If that was an injury thing then next year he'll look very different to start the year, and then we can start talking about this as an actual problem. If he needs time in the weight room and time to change his swing before we start seeing extra base hits from him, then that could be a multi-year program.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think the White Sox took the most adanced hitter in the draft, sent him to High A in his first professional season, and then plan for him to start a multi-year program to change his swing and add power.  The Sox are not going to make major changes to his game.  They drafted him to be Nick Madrigal.  His power will hopefully improve with a healthy wrist and as he naturally adds muscle over time.  I highly, highly doubt they take a conservative approach with him while they wait for that part of his game to develop though.  I would say it’s like 90% likely he starts next year in AA and from there moves up quickly assuming the hit tool plays up.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

I think you are fooling yourself if you think the White Sox took the most adanced hitter in the draft, sent him to High A in his first professional season, and then plan for him to start a multi-year program to change his swing and add power.  The Sox are not going to make major changes to his game.  They drafted him to be Nick Madrigal.  His power will hopefully improve with a healthy wrist and as he naturally adds muscle over time.  I highly, highly doubt they take a conservative approach with him while they wait for that part of his game to develop though.  I would say it’s like 90% likely he starts next year in AA and from there moves up quickly assuming the hit tool plays up.

This is exactly what I expect the White Sox to do, and I do expect the White Sox to race him up to the big leagues by 2020 and then be baffled about why he's hitting a punchless .250 and has to be dropped to the back of their order and then we start talking about how we have to replace him with a free agent in order to compete, because that's what the White Sox have trained me to expect them to do.

[pcq]

9 hours ago, Hot FiRe said:

I think his ceiling is highest at 2B. He has some great potential there defensively. I get we have Madrigal, but we have plenty of CF options. Robert, LuGo and basabe have chances to play there. 

Would like to keep Rondon over Silly Sanchez who is meh and belongs in the North Korean league. 

[Chicago White Sox]

45 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is exactly what I expect the White Sox to do, and I do expect the White Sox to race him up to the big leagues by 2020 and then be baffled about why he's hitting a punchless .250 and has to be dropped to the back of their order and then we start talking about how we have to replace him with a free agent in order to compete, because that's what the White Sox have trained me to expect them to do.

Well it’s pretty obvious you haven’t been following the Sox too closely during your long absence from the site.  The Sox have been super conservative in terms of assignments & promotions under Getz, almost to the detriment of our prospects’ actual development IMO.  The only guy I think they were too aggressive with was Moncaa.  He could have used more time in AAA to work on his swing & miss issues.  Otherwise, things are much different than they were in the Buddy Bell years.

As for Madrigal, guys with elite bat to ball skills typically don’t need years of minor league development.  He is supposed to move fast, that’s one of the benefits of selecting an incredibly polished college hitter in the draft.  I also think your concerns over his lack of power are unwarranted.  No one should be expecting a ton of power out of this kid.  If he becomes the next Jose Altuve that would be fantastic, but that’s like a 1% outcome and we should not keep him down in the minors longer than necessary in hopes of that happening.  Next year his wrist should be healed and he should start spraying the ball around the field with more authority.  As long as he’s hitting for high average with a reasonable amount of doubles & triples, he should continue to move up the ladder.  Anything beyond that is simply gravy and can always happen at the major league level just like it did with Altuve in his age 26 season.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Well it’s pretty obvious you haven’t been following the Sox too closely during your long absence from the site.  The Sox have been super conservative in terms of assignments & promotions under Getz, almost to the detriment of our prospects’ actual development IMO.  The only guy I think they were too aggressive with was Moncaa.  He could have used more time in AAA to work on his swing & miss issues.  Otherwise, things are much different than they were in the Buddy Bell years.

As for Madrigal, guys with elite bat to ball skills typically don’t need years of minor league development.  He is supposed to move fast, that’s one of the benefits of selecting an incredibly polished college hitter in the draft.  I also think your concerns over his lack of power are unwarranted.  No one should be expecting a ton of power out of this kid.  If he becomes the next Jose Altuve that would be fantastic, but that’s like a 1% outcome and we should not keep him down in the minors longer than necessary in hopes of that happening.  Next year his wrist should be healed and he should start spraying the ball around the field with more authority.  As long as he’s hitting for high average with a reasonable amount of doubles & triples, he should continue to move up the ladder.  Anything beyond that is simply gravy and can always happen at the major league level just like it did with Altuve in his age 26 season.

Well first of all, he's not hitting a reasonable number of doubles and triples so far, he's hitting epically few doubles and triples and I include that in power. He spent this season pounding the ball into the ground, his groundball to flyball rate was genuinely bad and that's the biggest reason why he had so few doubles and triples, he had a worse groundball ratio than anyone in the big leagues. I cannot rule out that this was the fault of his wrist injury, but that's a legitimate worry, that number of ground balls would make him a genuinely weak hitter once he got to a level where the fielders are decent and where the pitchers will have the stuff to strike him out more.

Secondly, if he's only hitting a "decent number of doubles and triples" while being a really good fielder, then he's not going to be a good enough player for me to want to move Moncada unless I'm giving up on Moncada completely, and that'd be my answer to the question posed in this thread. 

Maybe he breaks out next year, maybe it was all the wrist, maybe he will light up AA this year, but right now he looks like a guy with a long way to go, he looks like a guy who if he gets called up we'll be wondering what is wrong with our scouting. If this were my franchise, I wouldn't care a lick about what his draft status was or why that requires me to move him fast, his numbers in A ball this year were such that I would be putting him in A ball to start next season and he would have to prove to me that he's ready to move up before he reaches AA. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

20 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Well it’s pretty obvious you haven’t been following the Sox too closely during your long absence from the site.  The Sox have been super conservative in terms of assignments & promotions under Getz, almost to the detriment of our prospects’ actual development IMO.  The only guy I think they were too aggressive with was Moncaa.  He could have used more time in AAA to work on his swing & miss issues.  Otherwise, things are much different than they were in the Buddy Bell years.

On Moncada, he shouldn't have started 2017 in AAA. He came from Boston with a 31% K rate in AA. He should have started 2017 in Birmingham, & finished in Charlotte, IF (& ONLY if) he kept the K rate down.

The other prospect they stupidly rushed was Kopech, only because there weren't enough innings left for him to have been promoted. On balance, these two abject failures mean that Getz should be looking for new work, IMO.

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all, he's not hitting a reasonable number of doubles and triples so far, he's hitting epically few doubles and triples and I include that in power. He spent this season pounding the ball into the ground, his groundball to flyball rate was genuinely bad and that's the biggest reason why he had so few doubles and triples, he had a worse groundball ratio than anyone in the big leagues. I cannot rule out that this was the fault of his wrist injury, but that's a legitimate worry, that number of ground balls would make him a genuinely weak hitter once he got to a level where the fielders are decent and where the pitchers will have the stuff to strike him out more.

Secondly, if he's only hitting a "decent number of doubles and triples" while being a really good fielder, then he's not going to be a good enough player for me to want to move Moncada unless I'm giving up on Moncada completely, and that'd be my answer to the question posed in this thread. 

Maybe he breaks out next year, maybe it was all the wrist, maybe he will light up AA this year, but right now he looks like a guy with a long way to go, he looks like a guy who if he gets called up we'll be wondering what is wrong with our scouting. If this were my franchise, I wouldn't care a lick about what his draft status was or why that requires me to move him fast, his numbers in A ball this year were such that I would be putting him in A ball to start next season and he would have to prove to me that he's ready to move up before he reaches AA. 

So you’d ignore all our scouting efforts (and others) over multiple seasons and would instead rely on a small sample of drafted season performance in which Madrigal acknowledged publicly his wrist was still affecting him.  I mean good god, you make Getz look like Buddy Bell with this take.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

On Moncada, he shouldn't have started 2017 in AAA. He came from Boston with a 31% K rate in AA. He should have started 2017 in Birmingham, & finished in Charlotte, IF (& ONLY if) he kept the K rate down.

The other prospect they stupidly rushed was Kopech, only because there weren't enough innings left for him to have been promoted. On balance, these two abject failures mean that Getz should be looking for new work, IMO.

I don’t think the Moncada promotion to the majors was Getz’s call.  And I don’t think calling up Kopech to the majors was rushing him at all, he was clearly more than ready.  Whether it was the right decision is a different argument and one that goes well beyond Getz.

[Balta1701]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So you’d ignore all our scouting efforts (and others) over multiple seasons and would instead rely on a small sample of drafted season performance in which Madrigal acknowledged publicly his wrist was still affecting him.  I mean good god, you make Getz look like Buddy Bell with this take.

Frankly, yes, what people said about the guy before he was drafted is of minor importance to me right now. 2 months actually facing minor league pitchers and working with my coaches matters to me a lot more. I would go so far as to say our org would be in far better shape if, once the draft was over, they stopped caring about it and focused on what people actually were doing. Ditto prospect rankings once a guy is acquired. Moncada, Rodon, Fulmer - there’s a laundry list of guys we rushed up based on something other than their performance and the results have not been quality. Rick Hahn himself once said that the hitters will show us when they are ready to be called up, but we don’t live up to that standard.

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Frankly, yes, what people said about the guy before he was drafted is of minor importance to me right now. 2 months actually facing minor league pitchers and working with my coaches matters to me a lot more. I would go so far as to say our org would be in far better shape if, once the draft was over, they stopped caring about it and focused on what people actually were doing. Ditto prospect rankings once a guy is acquired. Moncada, Rodon, Fulmer - there’s a laundry list of guys we rushed up based on something other than their performance and the results have not been quality. Rick Hahn himself once said that the hitters will show us when they are ready to be called up, but we don’t live up to that standard.

Yet you claimed earlier since Moncada was “rushed”, everyone has to be treated the same. You also claimed it may takeKopech and Eloy more than a season to adjust, yet you are pinning a couple of months sample size on Madrigal. At least there. Used be. Some logic to your arguments. Recently, you have no consistency and even make stuff up.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Frankly, yes, what people said about the guy before he was drafted is of minor importance to me right now. 2 months actually facing minor league pitchers and working with my coaches matters to me a lot more. I would go so far as to say our org would be in far better shape if, once the draft was over, they stopped caring about it and focused on what people actually were doing. Ditto prospect rankings once a guy is acquired. Moncada, Rodon, Fulmer - there’s a laundry list of guys we rushed up based on something other than their performance and the results have not been quality. Rick Hahn himself once said that the hitters will show us when they are ready to be called up, but we don’t live up to that standard.

2 months facing minor league pitching with a wrist injury.  The general rule of thumb is to not overreact to drafted season performance, let alone when someone is dealing with a serious injury.  I mean, based on your logic Steele Walker should start next season in Great Falls.  Quite frankly, your view on this is pretty absurd.  If Madrigal looks shitty in spring training then maybe I’d be willing to ignore all my scouting reports and start him in High A, but otherwise him gutting through an injury should not result in a lesser assignment.

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yet you claimed earlier since Moncada was “rushed”, everyone has to be treated the same. You also claimed it may takeKopech and Eloy more than a season to adjust, yet you are pinning a couple of months sample size on Madrigal. At least there. Used be. Some logic to your arguments. Recently, you have no consistency and even make stuff up.

I think we should expect it takes most guys many months to adapt to each level, and I think Madrigal needs time to adjust to the level he's currently at (and maybe, uniquely in his case, to have time to hit the weight room). 

Want a simple standard? One sentence? Guys get called up when (gasp) their numbers and performance show they are ready to be called up, and after that point we give them the time they need to work through things at each level until their numbers show they're ready for their next callup. It's a simple standard and yet we never follow it, we always let things from the big league calendar or their draft position or their prospect ranking be more important.

Moncada's numbers, especially everything after a hot April, strongly suggested he wasn't ready to be called up, but it was the trade deadline so apparently he had to be. Eloy and Kopech looked ready to be called up, but hey service time matters for one of those players. It's no mystery why one guy felt like he was being treated unfairly enough that he wrote an article called "I'm Ready" for the Players Tribune, because there's no consistency in how those guys were treated. 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

2 months facing minor league pitching with a wrist injury.  The general rule of thumb is to not overreact to drafted season performance, let alone when someone is dealing with a serious injury.  I mean, based on your logic Steele Walker should start next season in Great Falls.  Quite frankly, your view on this is pretty absurd.  If Madrigal looks shitty in spring training then maybe I’d be willing to ignore all my scouting reports and start him in High A, but otherwise him gutting through an injury should not result in a lesser assignment.

Walker's numbers weren't good...but I'm sure not starting him off at a partial-season team. Should he go up to W-S based on his draft status?