Rebuild

[whitesoxbrad]

20 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

As we all dream on the distant hopes of this organization landing either Machado or Harper, I think its perfectly cogent to reflect upon how the rebuild is going.

 

For my part, I think the rebuild has stalled tremendously. I believe the key players in the front office have made some big blunders, particularly in the "development-of-prospects" area. Looking at the top youngsters, I doubt many of us are happy with the way Moncada/Giolito have performed hereto fore. Nor can we be happy about the cavalcade of injuries to key prospects. [Yeah, Moncada had a miraculous Sept/Oct to get to a respectable fWAR for the year. But this was fueled by an unsustainable .452 BaBIP. I doubt that he can continue forward at this clip; YMMV.]

Fegan reporting that Hahn wants to start Robert in Double-A next year [after a mediocre and injury-riddled 2018 campaign] suggests to me that this front office is simply unwilling or unable to learn from their previous mistakes with Moncada. Do they promote prospects based on "talent alone," or do they OBJECTIVELY promote based on performance? If not, WHY not?

 

Watching Abreu have to seek outside help to fix his swing, and watching Collins have to revert to his old swing makes me wonder about Steverson. I also have this haunting thought that none of the other coaches/Manager in Chicago are MLB caliber, save for Cooper. At the same time, I look at Cooper, and wonder if it hasn't been well overdue for a change at his spot, given that I can't remember the last time he "fixed" a pitcher.

All told, if these are the "best coaches" in the organization, how much more incompetent are the coaches at lower-level assignments? And even if this org has much more talent than in recent seasons, how will these youngsters be properly tutored in their craft and nurtured into big leaguers?

 

The recent draft picks [Burger/Sheets in particular] make me wonder how many of these high draft picks will actually pan out. I also wonder if Hostetler is actually good at his job, or if he simply looks better than Laumann and his craptacular track record. 

 

On balance, while we can credit KW/RH for the "accumulation phase" of the rebuild, and while I think its without a doubt that this rebuild NEEDS a top FA signing or two, we're also into the hard part of the rebuild, which is the "development phase." I just don't know that this org has the right people making the right decisions at the moment. I hope I'm wrong, and that miracles happen, but I have my doubts after years of failure at the executive levels of this org. We'll see.

The best post i have seen since the time I started looking on this site, well done but be careful this Austin guy might ask you to delete your account because you are speaking the TRUTH.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, whitesoxbrad said:

The best post i have seen since the time I started looking on this site, well done but be careful this Austin guy might ask you to delete your account because you are speaking the TRUTH.

Nah, he's OK. He likes optimism at all times, and that's OK. Our White Sox are still undefeated in the offseason.

I'm just waiting for the first poster to conflate an opinion on a rebuild that has "stalled tremendously" by strawmanning something about my post as being about a "failed rebuild."

I don't think we're in a "full failure range" of outcomes-yet. But I think that a lot of decisions and decision-makers are doing their part to push it that direction. We'll know more around ~June/July or so, but it seems like we STILL have more questions than answers than we should at this point, IMO.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, whitesoxbrad said:

The best post i have seen since the time I started looking on this site, well done but be careful this Austin guy might ask you to delete your account because you are speaking the TRUTH.

Our pitching coaches in A ball are almost universally-lauded.  Same with Vizquel and Jirschele.

Nobody knows what we have in Robert at this point.   Off the chart tools correspond with his signing bonus, just like Moncada or Eloy.   That said, we’ve also seen huge amounts of money dumped on guys like Rusney Castillo, Hector Oliver’s and Jorge Soler.   There are no guarantees.  Ask the Twins.

That said, would have absolutely no problem changing up the entire staff at the big league level.

[Panerista]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Nah, he's OK. He likes optimism at all times, and that's OK. Our White Sox are still undefeated in the offseason.

I'm just waiting for the first poster to conflate an opinion on a rebuild that has "stalled tremendously" by strawmanning something about my post as being about a "failed rebuild."

I don't think we're in a "full failure range" of outcomes-yet. But I think that a lot of decisions and decision-makers are doing their part to push it that direction. We'll know more around ~June/July or so, but it seems like we STILL have more questions than answers than we should at this point, IMO.

Not even that extreme.  I can't stand the constant pessimism from some on the board.  It's one thing to say "I think it's probably not likely we get Bryce Harper".  It's another thing to crap on everyone else here and be like "Everyone should be prepared to be disappointed because our FO is going to get only scraps".  

Attitude matters, and @Dick Allen's is terrible.  We get enough negativity from watching the team lose without DA being like "oh, by the way it's all for nothing!"

If sports don't make you happy, don't watch.  That's it.  

Edited November 11, 2018 by AustinIllini

[Dick Allen]

28 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Not even that extreme.  I can't stand the constant pessimism from some on the board.  It's one thing to say "I think it's probably not likely we get Bryce Harper".  It's another thing to crap on everyone else here and be like "Everyone should be prepared to be disappointed because our FO is going to get only scraps".  

Attitude matters, and @Dick Allen's is terrible.  We get enough negativity from watching the team lose without DA being like "oh, by the way it's all for nothing!"

If sports don't make you happy, don't watch.  That's it.  

Posting on this site apparently makes you happy, Yet you are miserable in every one of your posts. Hysterical.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Panerista]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Posting on this site apparently makes you happy, Yet you are miserable in every one of your posts. Hysterical.

Your Skip Bayless level takes are tiring.  

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Your Skip Bayless level takes are tiring.  

T agree, as is your constant critique of others posts. Why don’t you actually discuss the topics at hand?

[Lip Man 1]

On 11/10/2018 at 7:12 PM, AustinIllini said:

If sports don't make you happy, don't watch.  That's it.  

Personally just one man's opinion, what makes me happy in sports isn't the cold beer, the pretty girls in the stands, the funny hats, fireworks or sunshine.

It's winning.... period.

That's why they play the game and in the last 12 seasons Sox fans have seen damn little of that commodity. 

[SCCWS]

32 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Personally just one man's opinion, what makes me happy in sports isn't the cold beer, the pretty girls in the stands, the funny hats, fireworks or sunshine.

It's winning.... period.

That's why they play the game and in the last 12 seasons Sox fans have seen damn little of that commodity. 

 

Damn: I just told my grand-daughther last week that having fun is more important  than winning. 

 

Affixed to the backstop of the St. Anthony Little League Stadium in Utica, NY was a small and not terribly pretty sign that simply said: "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnzogby/2013/03/08/its-how-you-play-the-game/#5586339133b7

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, SCCWS said:

 

Damn: I just told my grand-daughther last week that having fun is more important  than winning. 

 

Affixed to the backstop of the St. Anthony Little League Stadium in Utica, NY was a small and not terribly pretty sign that simply said: "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnzogby/2013/03/08/its-how-you-play-the-game/#5586339133b7

 

For those playing in the games, especially at the amateur and youth level...sure.  Winning is (usually) more important for parents/fans/coaches.

[southsider2k5]

12 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Personally just one man's opinion, what makes me happy in sports isn't the cold beer, the pretty girls in the stands, the funny hats, fireworks or sunshine.

It's winning.... period.

That's why they play the game and in the last 12 seasons Sox fans have seen damn little of that commodity. 

It amazes me to see this posted over and over again.  What are people trying to make up for their lives that they need to see a random group of strangers having success to feel good about themselves?  Winning is a great feeling and all, but it isn't what sports should be about.  Sports are entertainment, not a substitute for success.

[Lip Man 1]

On 11/11/2018 at 8:57 AM, southsider2k5 said:

It amazes me to see this posted over and over again.  What are people trying to make up for their lives that they need to see a random group of strangers having success to feel good about themselves?  Winning is a great feeling and all, but it isn't what sports should be about.  Sports are entertainment, not a substitute for success.

Doesn't mean it is the ONLY thing in life. It's not a "all or nothing" proposition...you separate things like family and health and reality in life. But in my case, when it comes to sports and the teams I have followed all my life, White Sox, Bears, Blackhawks and Bulls, to me its about winning as I said.

And your perspective is YOUR perspective...that's OK, that's who you are. I don't presume to say your "philosophy" is right or wrong, it works for you. That's great.

Others have a different look at things and that's who they are.

 

 

"If it doesn't matter if you win or lose why do they keep the damn score?" - Bobby Knight.

[Dick Allen]

While I agree and believe in the grand scheme of things, whether they win the WS or lose 100 games, your life should not be too effected,  winning is far more entertaining than losing.

[southsider2k5]

16 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Doesn't mean it is the ONLY thing in life. It's not a "all or nothing" proposition...you separate things like family and health and reality in life. But in my case, when it comes to sports and the teams I have followed all my life, White Sox, Bears, Blackhawks and Bulls, to me its about winning as I said.

And your perspective is YOUR perspective...that's OK, that's who you are. I don't presume to say your "philosophy" is right or wrong, it works for you. That's great.

Others have a different look at things and that's who they are.

 

 

"If it doesn't matter if you win or lose why do they keep the damn score?" - Bobby Knight.

If you need "winning" to feel valid, something is missing, somewhere.  Sports are an escape, not a stress.

[Dominikk85]

You simply can't judge the rebuild until 2021 or so. I agree it didn't start super well like the cubs rebuild with moncada and giolito struggling and kopech and Robert getting hurt quite a bit but there are still a lot of chips down in the farm and the guys up have time to fix their flaws. 

What matters is the end result and I don't think we can judge that before 2021. Sure giolito and moncada already showed some red flags in the minors but otherwise it also was a lot of bad luck involved with prospect injuries.

[Thad Bosley]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

It amazes me to see this posted over and over again.  What are people trying to make up for their lives that they need to see a random group of strangers having success to feel good about themselves?  Winning is a great feeling and all, but it isn't what sports should be about.  Sports are entertainment, not a substitute for success.

You should put your philosophy on all of this on a bunch of flyers, and then go and stand in front of sports stadiums all around the world and pass them out to fans as they’re entering the stadium.  

Go and hand them out in England, for example, right before a Liverpool vs. Manchester United soccer match, and see how that works out for you.  I’m sure you’d swayed the masses there just like do here with your (oddly contrived) suggestion that those fans coming to the game to fiercely cheer their team onto victory are sadly just seeking a winning performance as a substitute for something else missing in their lives, I believe as your theory goes.  Because that’s why they all want their respective teams to win.

And when you’re done in England, go preach this point of view in front of a place like Fenway Park right before a Red Sox/Yankees game.  I’m sure you’d turn heads there, too.  Or maybe locally in the Midwest, before a Norte Dame/Michigan game.  See how your “Winning is just a bonus” mandate plays with those fans.  So on and so forth.

Then, it might make sense to go and have a little chit chat with Rick Hahn and suggest to him he chill out on this rebuild business, the goal, of course, which is to build a sustainable, WINNING ballclub.  Psychoanalyze him while you’re at it, figure out what he’s trying to substitute in his life with his pursuit of a winning ball club.  Convince him that it’s ok to run out 100 loss teams, because winning just isn’t everything, as you always say.  That it’s us the fans who have a problem if we can’t get joy out of the caliber of baseball like he’s delivered to us for quite sometime on the South Side.  I’m sure it’d be quite an eye opener for him and he’d understand. 

Finally, do you ever notice practically no one on this board seems to share your point of view on this matter?  Think it could just be you are a lone casual fan thrust in a sea of diehard fans?

[kwolf68]

Rebuilds are a fickle business. I remember the excitement and glee when welcoming in prospects, but prospects are prospects and not ML players for a reason. They are not ready, have to mature, build strength, learn another secondary pitch, work on pitch recognition, etc. It's a fools gold game, and it really sucks when the prime target in one of the trades, pitches masterfully in his first few games and then ends up on the shelf with TJS. That was a blow.

But there are positive developments. I remember much speculation that Cease would end up in the pen. At this point, he looks like a legit top of rotation starter. Dunning, the third guy in the Eaton trade, is showing (or was) legit promise as a rotation horse that could eat innings. Blake Rutherford, who many really worried about had an excellent season in high A last year and his suspected advancement to Birmingham will be one of the things I'll be tracking next year. Madrigal shows ZERO pop, but the kid is a legit hitter. Adolfo and Basabe (along with the aforementioned Rutherford) provide additional outfield prospect depth behind headliners Eloy and Robert. If Moncada ends up in the OF that gives the Sox a tone of depth as I'm not even counting Delmonico and Cordell. There will be other kids that rise up as well and we are looking at another high pick in next year's draft.

But things are going slow I'll admit. Gio and Rey have scuffled, Cease was on innings count, Dunning was shelved,  Basabe  is struggling in AFL, and of course Kopech. As a few have said, this thing is incomplete. 

 

[TheFutureIsNear]

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

It amazes me to see this posted over and over again.  What are people trying to make up for their lives that they need to see a random group of strangers having success to feel good about themselves?  Winning is a great feeling and all, but it isn't what sports should be about.  Sports are entertainment, not a substitute for success.

 

 

To each their own, but I disagree. Sports are indeed entertainment and I’ll watch regardless, but when it comes to my favorite teams if they aren’t winning I’m not happy....for a few hrs. I don’t let it consume my life or anything but I’ll never be content to just sit back and watch and not be invested in the outcome. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by TheFutureIsNear

[SoxBlanco]

44 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

To each their own, but I disagree. Sports are indeed entertainment and I’ll watch regardless, but when it comes to my favorite teams if they aren’t winning I’m not happy....for a few hrs. I don’t let it consume my life or anything but I’ll never be content to just sit back and watch and not be invested in the outcome. 

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. 

[southsider2k5]

4 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

You should put your philosophy on all of this on a bunch of flyers, and then go and stand in front of sports stadiums all around the world and pass them out to fans as they’re entering the stadium.  

Go and hand them out in England, for example, right before a Liverpool vs. Manchester United soccer match, and see how that works out for you.  I’m sure you’d swayed the masses there just like do here with your (oddly contrived) suggestion that those fans coming to the game to fiercely cheer their team onto victory are sadly just seeking a winning performance as a substitute for something else missing in their lives, I believe as your theory goes.  Because that’s why they all want their respective teams to win.

And when you’re done in England, go preach this point of view in front of a place like Fenway Park right before a Red Sox/Yankees game.  I’m sure you’d turn heads there, too.  Or maybe locally in the Midwest, before a Norte Dame/Michigan game.  See how your “Winning is just a bonus” mandate plays with those fans.  So on and so forth.

Then, it might make sense to go and have a little chit chat with Rick Hahn and suggest to him he chill out on this rebuild business, the goal, of course, which is to build a sustainable, WINNING ballclub.  Psychoanalyze him while you’re at it, figure out what he’s trying to substitute in his life with his pursuit of a winning ball club.  Convince him that it’s ok to run out 100 loss teams, because winning just isn’t everything, as you always say.  That it’s us the fans who have a problem if we can’t get joy out of the caliber of baseball like he’s delivered to us for quite sometime on the South Side.  I’m sure it’d be quite an eye opener for him and he’d understand. 

Finally, do you ever notice practically no one on this board seems to share your point of view on this matter?  Think it could just be you are a lone casual fan thrust in a sea of diehard fans?

Uh, oh.  I apologize for hurting your feelings again. 

[oldsox]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Uh, oh.  I apologize for hurting your feelings again. 

Weak response, Southsider.

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

You should put your philosophy on all of this on a bunch of flyers, and then go and stand in front of sports stadiums all around the world and pass them out to fans as they’re entering the stadium.  

Go and hand them out in England, for example, right before a Liverpool vs. Manchester United soccer match, and see how that works out for you.  I’m sure you’d swayed the masses there just like do here with your (oddly contrived) suggestion that those fans coming to the game to fiercely cheer their team onto victory are sadly just seeking a winning performance as a substitute for something else missing in their lives, I believe as your theory goes.  Because that’s why they all want their respective teams to win.

 And when you’re done in England, go preach this point of view in front of a place like Fenway Park right before a Red Sox/Yankees game.  I’m sure you’d turn heads there, too.  Or maybe locally in the Midwest, before a Norte Dame/Michigan game.  See how your “Winning is just a bonus” mandate plays with those fans.  So on and so forth.

 Then, it might make sense to go and have a little chit chat with Rick Hahn and suggest to him he chill out on this rebuild business, the goal, of course, which is to build a sustainable, WINNING ballclub.  Psychoanalyze him while you’re at it, figure out what he’s trying to substitute in his life with his pursuit of a winning ball club.  Convince him that it’s ok to run out 100 loss teams, because winning just isn’t everything, as you always say.  That it’s us the fans who have a problem if we can’t get joy out of the caliber of baseball like he’s delivered to us for quite sometime on the South Side.  I’m sure it’d be quite an eye opener for him and he’d understand. 

Finally, do you ever notice practically no one on this board seems to share your point of view on this matter?  Think it could just be you are a lone casual fan thrust in a sea of diehard fans?

Great great post. I mean fan is short for fanatic. Message boards generally show you how important winning is to a pro sports fan. Or a college sports fan. My take is if there are zillions of dollars involved, I want my team to win and win now. I'm a fan that gets upset at the price of games and food/drink/parking at games so yes I DEMAND my teams win or try to win.

Now we go down to the high school level? I am a Brother Rice football fan. If Rice loses in the semis to Marist will I be the least bit mad? Hell no. They are high school kids trying their best and playing football, a game that is fun to watch when executed properly. Would I ever be mad at a Brother Rice player or coach for screwing up? Hell no. I appreciate them. Even in a dismal season. But the Sox?? Give me victories as our fans give you owners millions of dollars. Just.Win.Baby. (Or try hard at least and contend).

[Thad Bosley]

10 hours ago, oldsox said:

Weak response, Southsider.

It was, but he probably thought it the safer route to go rather than trying to fly his flimsy “The desire to win is a character flaw!” argument by me again.  

[ChiSoxFanMike]

18 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

You should put your philosophy on all of this on a bunch of flyers, and then go and stand in front of sports stadiums all around the world and pass them out to fans as they’re entering the stadium.  

Go and hand them out in England, for example, right before a Liverpool vs. Manchester United soccer match, and see how that works out for you.  I’m sure you’d swayed the masses there just like do here with your (oddly contrived) suggestion that those fans coming to the game to fiercely cheer their team onto victory are sadly just seeking a winning performance as a substitute for something else missing in their lives, I believe as your theory goes.  Because that’s why they all want their respective teams to win.

And when you’re done in England, go preach this point of view in front of a place like Fenway Park right before a Red Sox/Yankees game.  I’m sure you’d turn heads there, too.  Or maybe locally in the Midwest, before a Norte Dame/Michigan game.  See how your “Winning is just a bonus” mandate plays with those fans.  So on and so forth.

Then, it might make sense to go and have a little chit chat with Rick Hahn and suggest to him he chill out on this rebuild business, the goal, of course, which is to build a sustainable, WINNING ballclub.  Psychoanalyze him while you’re at it, figure out what he’s trying to substitute in his life with his pursuit of a winning ball club.  Convince him that it’s ok to run out 100 loss teams, because winning just isn’t everything, as you always say.  That it’s us the fans who have a problem if we can’t get joy out of the caliber of baseball like he’s delivered to us for quite sometime on the South Side.  I’m sure it’d be quite an eye opener for him and he’d understand. 

Finally, do you ever notice practically no one on this board seems to share your point of view on this matter?  Think it could just be you are a lone casual fan thrust in a sea of diehard fans?

The guy has 148,000 posts on a White Sox forum. Lol

[southsider2k5]

13 hours ago, oldsox said:

Weak response, Southsider.

I kind of feel bad for the guy TBH.  He has spent apparently decades of his life holding grudges against random strangers for not entertaining him enough, which he feels makes him a better "fan".  I don't know what kind of response there is for that other than the same truths I keep trying to tell him.  If you have time to be angry at complete strangers for decades, your priorities are out of whack.  It doesn't make you a better fan, it makes you bitter and angry.  I watch baseball because I enjoy the sport, and I enjoy the White Sox because of generational family traditions, the escape from daily life it brings me, and a joy of sport.  I feel sad for people who don't get that.  Especially if they do this for decades and feel nothing but anger and disappointment.

Every time this discussion comes up, the same guy comes into conversations which didn't even involve him to start name calling and raging about his way somehow being better.  The anger issues are so prevalent over something that shouldn't be. 

What does it say when you hate something so much, yet keep doing it?  But, rinse and repeat.  Sad is the only thing I feel.