Morosi: White Sox interested in "both Machado and Harper"

[Nardiwashere]

So anything less than a 96 win team on paper is not competitive?

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

So anything less than a 96 win team on paper is not competitive?

A 90 win team, the Rays, was 7 games out of the Wild Card this year. Did anyone really consider the Rays competitive this year? Cleveland's bullpen imploded and their win total was down, but that's solvable - their run differential this year was that of a 98 win team. 

This is the era we're in, it's the super team era. If you are not assembling a super-team, then you are not assembling a roster that really has a shot. Talking about being above .500 and how that's a competitive team - that's not the era we are in any more. So rather than talking to me about how Jed Lowrie is going to be a good player at age 35, talk to me about how signing him makes us win 100 games in 2021. If it doesn't, then it's not a move in the right direction, it's poorly spent resources.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

It's a whole new story but also there's not one established above average big leaguer in the list of names you just mentioned  and there's only 1 that I have good confidence in next year. If someone genuinely believed that we were in good shape next year you'd be figuring out backup plans for the bullpen and both of the starting pitchers you mentioned.

No plan guarantees anything not even tanking another year. Hahn mentioned adding pitching right away. Let's say they add Happ and Wade Miley on 2 or 3 year deals. That gives Kopech Dunning Cease all time to arrive and get their feet wet. So now Harper/Machdo see we have a plan when we also explain to them we will try to add more before the season starts. Depending on opt out years we can add more right away and/or wait another year. Add enough to give us a shot at 85+wins depending on which whale signs with us. Donaldson might not get more than 2 or 3 years. Brantley the same. Maybe you trade Abreu for a w/e you can get for him that fills some need and non tender Avi. That will save approx. $20M .Still a FA OF gives time for Robert/Basabe /Gonzales all maybe 2 years away just to be a rookie more time to develop. Since Harper's defense in right is an issue he can be switched to 1st base if he agrees that his bat OBP etc is the main thing because we want him to get back to the type of years he had when he was 22 and 24. DH can be manned by Palka/Davidson . AFA reliever could also be added.

If it ends up being Machado same type of thing . Add the pitching 1st add more FA's that give the kids time. I'm not too worried about an overpay for guys getting 1/2/3/4max possible years Then they are traded for more youth or kept  if the 2019 season isn't deemed a playoff team by the trade deadline.

Sure we need a lot to go right to be a playoff team in 2019 but so do a lot of teams and in 2020 we have a lot more starting pitchers arriving and know more about our minor league OF's.

[Nardiwashere]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

A 90 win team, the Rays, was 7 games out of the Wild Card this year. Did anyone really consider the Rays competitive this year? Cleveland's bullpen imploded and their win total was down, but that's solvable - their run differential this year was that of a 98 win team. 

This is the era we're in, it's the super team era. If you are not assembling a super-team, then you are not assembling a roster that really has a shot. Talking about being above .500 and how that's a competitive team - that's not the era we are in any more.

13 months ago, in a distant bygone era, each league had a team in the playoffs with 87 or less wins.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

A 90 win team, the Rays, was 7 games out of the Wild Card this year. Did anyone really consider the Rays competitive this year? Cleveland's bullpen imploded and their win total was down, but that's solvable - their run differential this year was that of a 98 win team. 

This is the era we're in, it's the super team era. If you are not assembling a super-team, then you are not assembling a roster that really has a shot. Talking about being above .500 and how that's a competitive team - that's not the era we are in any more. So rather than talking to me about how Jed Lowrie is going to be a good player at age 35, talk to me about how signing him makes us win 100 games in 2021. If it doesn't, then it's not a move in the right direction, it's poorly spent resources.

I don't really understand what your getting at . Do you expect the superteams to dissolve by 2020 or 21 when if we do it your way we have a bunch of really young starting pitching and Of's with just as many question marks as Gio Lopez Moncada have now, Do we depend on a bunch of rookies or 2nd year players to dethrone all these mighty teams ?

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't really understand what your getting at . Do you expect the superteams to dissolve by 2020 or 21 when if we do it your way we have a bunch of really young starting pitching and Of's with just as many question marks as Gio Lopez Moncada have now, Do we depend on a bunch of rookies or 2nd year players to dethrone all these mighty teams ?

By that point, we should be talking about much more experienced pitchers, Cease in year 2, Kopech back and a full year removed from rehab, and Lopez and Gio, if they're still here, in year 4 - where we're no longer talking about them needing to make huge 1 year jumps. There would be 0 rookies in that rotation, unless Rodon has been moved. The bullpen would be guys in year 2 or 3. The Catchers would be in year 2 and hopefully performing better. Moncada - hopefully by year 3 and 4 we're talking about serious, Javy Baez like progress. And by 2021...we're going to have so many outfielders hitting the big leagues that we're likely going to have to trade one or two of them for something else to fill a hole. We should be a superteam that year. We should be talking about winning 100+ games that year. If we're not, then that means too many guys got hurt or imploded, and the rebuild flopped.

[Lillian]

"Balta," 

Since you seem to think every position has to field a better than average productive player, exactly who is going to comprise this "power house" Indian team's outfield, if Brantley doesn't return?

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Lillian said:

"Balta," 

Since you seem to think every position has to field a better than average productive player, exactly who is going to comprise this "power house" Indian team's outfield, if Brantley doesn't return?

You literally asked "What significant holes do you see on this roster" and you interpreted a person answering "here are the holes, the worst ones are the pitching staff which is completely and utterly outgunned by Cleveland's starting rotation, CF is a substantial hole and 3b is also at least a worry" as "every position has to field a better than average productive player"? 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

By that point, we should be talking about much more experienced pitchers, Cease in year 2, Kopech back and a full year removed from rehab, and Lopez and Gio, if they're still here, in year 4 - where we're no longer talking about them needing to make huge 1 year jumps. There would be 0 rookies in that rotation, unless Rodon has been moved. The bullpen would be guys in year 2 or 3. The Catchers would be in year 2 and hopefully performing better. Moncada - hopefully by year 3 and 4 we're talking about serious, Javy Baez like progress. And by 2021...we're going to have so many outfielders hitting the big leagues that we're likely going to have to trade one or two of them for something else to fill a hole. We should be a superteam that year. We should be talking about winning 100+ games that year. If we're not, then that means too many guys got hurt or imploded, and the rebuild flopped.

Maybe not technically but Cease will probably still be classified as a rookie in 2020 depending on how many inning he gets at the end of 2019 if all goes well will be in year 2 Dunning might be a rookie or in year 2 who knows. So yes thats exactly what I said rookies and 2 year pitchers and some rookie and 2ns year OF's either in 2020 or 2021 . Way too many young guys in way too many key roles to be called a superteam by any stretch of the imagination even if Eloy Moncado Eloy Gio and Lopez all turn out good. And I suppose in your team there's also no Machado or Harper ?

Edited November 13, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
change typo of 2021 to 2020

[Balta1701]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe not technically but Cease will probably still be classified as a rookie in 2020 depending on how many inning he gets at the end of 2019 if all goes well will be in year 2 Dunning might be a rookie or in year 2 who knows. So yes thats exactly what I said rookies and 2 year pitchers and some rookie and 2ns year Of's either in 2021 or 2021 . Way too many young guys in way too many key roles to be called a superteam by any stretch of the imagination even if Eloy MoncadoEloy Gio and Lopez all turn out good. And I suppose in your team there's also no Machado or Harper ?

Don't cross up 2020 with 2021. Mentally I threw in the towel on my 2020 dream when Kopech got hurt because any version of a great white sox team out of this org requires him to be a true #1 starter, and I expect him to need a lot of time in 2020 to get back the control he developed in the 2nd half of 2018. By 2021, that should be a dominant rotation - even if no one is signed. Kopech, Cease in their 2nd years, Rodon or Lopez in the middle, Dunning and Giolito also available, and maybe even contributions by someone else like Hansen if they turn things around - that's a rotation that has the ability to be the best in baseball. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Don't cross up 2020 with 2021. Mentally I threw in the towel on my 2020 dream when Kopech got hurt because any version of a great white sox team out of this org requires him to be a true #1 starter, and I expect him to need a lot of time in 2020 to get back the control he developed in the 2nd half of 2018. By 2021, that should be a dominant rotation - even if no one is signed. Kopech, Cease in their 2nd years, Rodon or Lopez in the middle, Dunning and Giolito also available, and maybe even contributions by someone else like Hansen if they turn things around - that's a rotation that has the ability to be the best in baseball. 

OK so no superstar then . No Machado no Harper and a bunch of young pitchers who of course will all be great in 2021 surrounded by who exactly .? Eloy and the Javy Baez version of Moncada and 2 more rookie or 2nd  yr. OF's ? Yes I can see it now. Youngest World Series winning team in MLB history.

Edited November 13, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

OK so no superstar then . No Machado no Harper and a bunch of young pitchers who of course will all be great in 2021 surrounded by who exactly .? Eloy and the Javy Baez version of Moncada and 2 more rookie or 2nd  yr. OF's ? Yes I can see it now. Youngest World Series winning team in MLB history.

I'm totally ok with a superstar, please go get one, and I think Eloy will be one by then also. I'm hoping Moncada, by year 4, is at least a strong player. Anderson will at least be an adequate SS. It's the "Add Lowrie or Donaldson at 3b and we've got this right now" that I keep harping on. That's the weak link here. Even if you add in Harper or Machado, this team still stands a good chance of being below .500 next year unless a lot of people have breakout years, and they're not likely to be ready to stand with the big boys in 2020 although they should be above .500. Adding Donaldson or Lowrie and Corbin doesn't change that in my eyes, so it starts looking to me like money we're locking up for no good reason, and I might need some of that money in 2020 or 2021 to replace Abreu or deal with an injury in order to put the team that should be really good over the top.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Even though they're losing Brantley, that Cleveland team is still very strong. In the Fangraphs world, we're talking about a team that has put up >55 WAR at least each of the last 2 seasons. A little bit of maneuvering in their bullpen would have a good chance to leave them with a better record than they had in 2018, and we saw what it takes to make a run at the wild card this year - you have to hang with the Yankees and Red Sox. 

If you want to tell me your team is competitive you have to tell me how you are going to win 95 games on paper. If that pitching staff wins 95 games then I never want to hear a bad word uttered about Cooper again because that would be the greatest successful development of a group of pitchers we'll ever see. It not out of the realm of possibility, but that shouldn't leave us with confidence. 

Where are you getting this +55 WAR figure from for 2018?

[fathom]

This guy has had good Yankees insight in the past, and he seems pretty confident the Yanks are going to land Manny

https://mobile.twitter.com/SimonettiSource/status/1062363544442884096

[bmags]

Any yankees fan should be confident the yankees will land anyone they want.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Where are you getting this +55 WAR figure from for 2018?

You're right, it was a measly 50 in 2018, my bad. It was >60 for them in 2017.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

This guy has had good Yankees insight in the past, and he seems pretty confident the Yanks are going to land Manny

https://mobile.twitter.com/SimonettiSource/status/1062363544442884096

I could still be talked into something centering around Andujar for Rodon.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I could still be talked into something centering around Andujar for Rodon.

Was thinking same.

[Special K]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I could still be talked into something centering around Andujar for Rodon.

I feel like the Yankees wouldn't go for that given Rodon's injury history. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Special K said:

I feel like the Yankees wouldn't go for that given Rodon's injury history. 

They did just bring back CC.

[Nardiwashere]

Yankees sign Machado... Abreu + Rodon for Andujar + Sheffield + Frazier... Doesn't that help both teams?

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Special K said:

I feel like the Yankees wouldn't go for that given Rodon's injury history. 

I don't know. On a stacked rotation, and in playoffs, rodon could be super valuable. "Go in there and throw 100% sliders for 3 innings". 

The opponents success vs his slider is terrible. 40% whiff rate, .251 wOBA. I could see a lot of interest.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm totally ok with a superstar, please go get one, and I think Eloy will be one by then also. I'm hoping Moncada, by year 4, is at least a strong player. Anderson will at least be an adequate SS. It's the "Add Lowrie or Donaldson at 3b and we've got this right now" that I keep harping on. That's the weak link here. Even if you add in Harper or Machado, this team still stands a good chance of being below .500 next year unless a lot of people have breakout years, and they're not likely to be ready to stand with the big boys in 2020 although they should be above .500. Adding Donaldson or Lowrie and Corbin doesn't change that in my eyes, so it starts looking to me like money we're locking up for no good reason, and I might need some of that money in 2020 or 2021 to replace Abreu or deal with an injury in order to put the team that should be really good over the top.

I'm just not pulling what I've laid out as my plan out of my rear end. I'm basing it on a few things Hahn has said. He said the Sox will go outside the organization to get pitching. He also said they cannot control when FA's become available. He also has said that the preconceived notions about the Sox  won't prevent them from spending or doing things that haven't seemed likely in the past and gave the Sox/Cubs trade and the Luis Robert signing as examples. There's also a new TV deal to consider when the current one expires after the 2019 season.

I said in the past that waiting til 2020 and beyond for FA's limits our opportunity's severely  before Hahn came out and said almost the exact same thing.

My plan hinges on 2 things. 1)Getting the pitching Hahn said we would and 2) Landing a whale this year. Everything is centered around those 2 things happening.

If those things happen then the ball starts gathering momentum . Add more FA's and get much better just in time to get a new TV contract that will add more revenue for 2020 and beyond. My plan also allows the kids (Dunning Cease Kopech Robert Gonzales Madrigal Rutherford Basabe Sheets etc) whoever is deemed ready, to ease into the lineup rather than be thrown into the fire and expected to be a superteam in their rookie or 2nd year.

If the whale eludes us all else fails and we fall back to your plan and get another high draft pick for 2019 and potentially lose millions on the new TV deal.

[raBBit]

38 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They did just bring back CC.

And what is the relevance of that?

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm just not pulling what I've laid out as my plan out of my rear end. I'm basing it on a few things Hahn has said. He said the Sox will go outside the organization to get pitching. He also said they cannot control when FA's become available. He also has said that the preconceived notions about the Sox  won't prevent them from spending or doing things that haven't seemed likely in the past and gave the Sox/Cubs trade and the Luis Robert signing as examples. There's also a new TV deal to consider when the current one expires after the 2019 season.

I said in the past that waiting til 2020 and beyond for FA's limits our opportunity's severely  before Hahn came out and said almost the exact same thing.

My plan hinges on 2 things. 1)Getting the pitching Hahn said we would and 2) Landing a whale this year. Everything is centered around those 2 things happening.

If those things happen then the ball starts gathering momentum . Add more FA's and get much better just in time to get a new TV contract that will add more revenue for 2020 and beyond. My plan also allows the kids (Dunning Cease Kopech Robert Gonzales Madrigal Rutherford Basabe Sheets etc) whoever is deemed ready, to ease into the lineup rather than be thrown into the fire and expected to be a superteam in their rookie or 2nd year.

If the whale eludes us all else fails and we fall back to your plan and get another high draft pick for 2019 and potentially lose millions on the new TV deal.

The White Sox absolutely have to go outside the organization to get pitching, Kopech's injury left us no choice. We have 3 starting pitchers right now and 1 of them has a shoulder we should be worried about. We need at least 2 starting pitchers next year just to avoid forfeiting games. But, the top line starters available - Corbin and Keuchel - they do not do anything close to making this team competitive next year, and signing them both basically would destroy our payroll flexibility for the future if we did land one of the big fish. There are plenty of guys who might be ok and more affordable, but they're like 1/10 or 1/5 chances of them being good. Signing 2 of them gets us some innings, but they're a path to the team sucking next year. They're guys like Shields and Pomeranz, who were poor to bad last year. I'm totally ok with that! It has to happen for one more year. There's simply no path that puts this team anywhere on Cleveland's footing next year, let alone on the level of the Yankees or Astros, without so much player development happening that if you saw it you'd declare this staff coaches for life.

So yes, take what Hahn said at face value. There's no reason not to sign one of the 2 big fish if we can land them. But beyond that...do no harm. If you sign Keuchel and Corbin, or heck just one of them, you are doing harm. You are giving away my ability to sign a big contract player next offseason, or the offseason after that, to fill a role that we should be able to fill internally, and you're doing so for a very dicey proposition - that we're going to be competitive next year in an era where even the wild card teams really have no shot at doing damage and where our rotation looks on paper like a pushover compared to Cleveland's. 

We absolutely have to go outside the organization for pitching. We do not have warm bodies right now, there is simply no other option. But our targets, at least for this year, should be Shields, Pomeranz, etc. - guys on 1 year deals, guys who stank last year and who we shouldn't expect much from other than innings. If pitching winds up being a need next offseason,  there will be pitching available next offseason, and the offseason after that, and that will be the time to spend money on it.