Morosi: White Sox interested in "both Machado and Harper"

[Buehrlesque]

Didn't Jason Heyward get an opt out after his third year? I don't see why Harper or Machado would settle for anything less. Give either guy $40 mil/year for the first three years with an opt out at that point. The rest is just details, as chances are very high the opt out is exercised. (If it's not exercised, that's a bad sign and you're probably screwed at that point anyway.)

[Jerksticks]

26 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I said $400M  rather than $40M AAV  without the laughed at part. The market will ultimately dictate if $400M is enough even if its 10 or 12 years. Either way he beats the highest AAV in the majors right now. If everyone but the Phillies balks at $400M then it's the Phillies. If even the Phillies balk at $400M then it will be less but I still think that's the price Boras is eyeing.

Yea I think we’re seeing this the same.  

Really curious if the market is more powerful than Boras.  You’re right that if nobody wants to go 40 or 400 then he ain’t getting it.  

Do you think if Harper drags out into next year that’s a sign of a weaker market for him?  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Yea I think we’re seeing this the same.  

Really curious if the market is more powerful than Boras.  You’re right that if nobody wants to go 40 or 400 then he ain’t getting it.  

Do you think if Harper drags out into next year that’s a sign of a weaker market for him?  

It may drag out anyway. Boras usually does this to let teams try to free up payroll space. Like if the Cubs trade Bryant or the Yankees get rid of a contract or 2 .They may not be in the hunt now but they could be later. Some teams could still have power struggles in their front offices on whether or not to get involved. so waiting gives time to change minds.

We are seeing some signs already that the market might be weak for him. Certainly the expected contract might have something to do with that with the usual high spenders either already having good rosters with little payroll space needing maybe to only reinforce their rosters rather than add a whale.

There will be plenty of misinformation out there in the next  90 days and Boras has his own ways to manipulate the market with misinformation and his vision of how truly special Harper is.

So to answer your question , no I don't think if it drags past the New Year its not a sign of a weaker market. It's more just Boras being Boras.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

38 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

I know but I think Harper's skill set/attitude will age better. We've already seen some character concerns from Machado. I wouldn't be surprised if he mailed it in and became fat and lazy once he lands that big contract.

Anytime you get into the "he will age better" territory it's dicey. A 18 months ago when we started talking about future free agents the Sox might sign in 2019 Donaldson was a very popular choice and many said the same thing about them thinking he will age better. Harper has had more injuries and that takes a toll  while Machado plays almost every game and that takes its toll too. Then there are always future injuries that could be very serious in either one. It's best not to look to far ahead. Also making character a concern is not a good idea either without being fully informed . That's why we are seeing reports now that the Yankees are doing some kind of investigation of Machado's background. They want to get into his head as much as possible and do their best to find out what makes him tick. I'd say thats wise given the amount you could invest in him .

Just hope we have a legit shot at either one and that they produce very well and stay healthy enough to propel the Sox into a World Series or 2.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I said $400M  rather than $40M AAV  without the laughed at part. The market will ultimately dictate if $400M is enough even if its 10 or 12 years. Either way he beats the highest AAV in the majors right now. If everyone but the Phillies balks at $400M then it's the Phillies. If even the Phillies balk at $400M then it will be less but I still think that's the price Boras is eyeing.

I said 11 yrs/$424M in my Offseason Plan, which is terrifying to think about, but I think the Sox need to pay a tax over other offers because of the state of the major league roster. That pencils out to $38.5M AAV, which would be a record as far as I know.

[bmags]

4 hours ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

I said 11 yrs/$424M in my Offseason Plan, which is terrifying to think about, but I think the Sox need to pay a tax over other offers because of the state of the major league roster. That pencils out to $38.5M AAV, which would be a record as far as I know.

Kudos for having guts not to use a contract not ending in a 5 or 0

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, Buehrlesque said:

Didn't Jason Heyward get an opt out after his third year? I don't see why Harper or Machado would settle for anything less. Give either guy $40 mil/year for the first three years with an opt out at that point. The rest is just details, as chances are very high the opt out is exercised. (If it's not exercised, that's a bad sign and you're probably screwed at that point anyway.)

Heyward had 2 opt-outs, one after year 3 and another after year 4. And honestly, I still think this is the one way the White Sox could lose out on both of them. We aren't going to be a competitive team in 2019 and even if we sign one of them, I'm skeptical about 2020 (Abreu needs replaced, Kopech coming back from the DL might very well need time to re-find the control he built over 4 months of this season, the catchers will be up but young). If the White Sox pay Harper $40 million per year, and they're a 75 win team next year and an 82 win team in 2020 before the glut of outfielders hits in 2021 and we finally have a loaded roster...then we'll basically be paying Harper $120 million in order to have him for 1 competitive season.

That's the one thing we can't do. Opt out after year 4, maybe...year 5 ok if we have to, but if I had any choice I'd be doing it after like year 6 because I want him there for a title run. The Phillies or Braves...a team that is competitive right now...they might be able to justify a buyout after year 2 or year 3 by saying they will win a division next year with the guy. We cannot say that.

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It may drag out anyway. Boras usually does this to let teams try to free up payroll space. Like if the Cubs trade Bryant or the Yankees get rid of a contract or 2 .They may not be in the hunt now but they could be later. Some teams could still have power struggles in their front offices on whether or not to get involved. so waiting gives time to change minds.

We are seeing some signs already that the market might be weak for him. Certainly the expected contract might have something to do with that with the usual high spenders either already having good rosters with little payroll space needing maybe to only reinforce their rosters rather than add a whale.

There will be plenty of misinformation out there in the next  90 days and Boras has his own ways to manipulate the market with misinformation and his vision of how truly special Harper is.

So to answer your question , no I don't think if it drags past the New Year its not a sign of a weaker market. It's more just Boras being Boras.

If this drags all the way into the new year, then yes I think  that's a sign of a weak market for him. Boras likes to drag things out, sometimes past the winter meetings, but he's also not dumb. If he pushes 3 teams to give better offers for Harper, and there's no sign of any movement, those teams are going to change course and fill the roles elsewhere. He can't wait that long without expecting teams to blink. 

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Heyward had 2 opt-outs, one after year 3 and another after year 4. And honestly, I still think this is the one way the White Sox could lose out on both of them. We aren't going to be a competitive team in 2019 and even if we sign one of them, I'm skeptical about 2020 (Abreu needs replaced, Kopech coming back from the DL might very well need time to re-find the control he built over 4 months of this season, the catchers will be up but young). If the White Sox pay Harper $40 million per year, and they're a 75 win team next year and an 82 win team in 2020 before the glut of outfielders hits in 2021 and we finally have a loaded roster...then we'll basically be paying Harper $120 million in order to have him for 1 competitive season.

That's the one thing we can't do. Opt out after year 4, maybe...year 5 ok if we have to, but if I had any choice I'd be doing it after like year 6 because I want him there for a title run. The Phillies or Braves...a team that is competitive right now...they might be able to justify a buyout after year 2 or year 3 by saying they will win a division next year with the guy. We cannot say that.

Not if they add another solid veteran starter, two relievers, a 3B, OF and potentially a DH depending on what they do with Abreu and Avi.

Of course, that’s spending another $45-60 million on top of what they’re paying Harper or Machado to push the timeframe to compete up to 2019 and 2020.

Signing Harper just doesn’t make sense if they can’t realistically compete even in 2020.  And you’re asking those two guys too much to expect them to be patient for that long.

It has to be presented in the same way the 2014 offseason of LaRoche/Robertson/Cabrera and trading for Samardzija was laid out like dominoes....a series of moves that would add a similar level of veteran talent to those four guys has to be part of the comprehensive plan to start competing as quickly as possible, even this season if everything breaks right.

Odds of all that happening?  10%?  15%?

The odds are certainly greater of ending up with a Tier B starter, a couple of veteran relievers and maybe one “bridge guy” like Donaldson, Moustakas, Brantley, McCutcheon, Adam Jones or Nelson Cruz.  

Of course, after all the build up...most fans are going to be seriously disappointed if that’s what we end up actually doing.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by caulfield12

[Buehrlesque]

38 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Heyward had 2 opt-outs, one after year 3 and another after year 4. And honestly, I still think this is the one way the White Sox could lose out on both of them. We aren't going to be a competitive team in 2019 and even if we sign one of them, I'm skeptical about 2020 (Abreu needs replaced, Kopech coming back from the DL might very well need time to re-find the control he built over 4 months of this season, the catchers will be up but young). If the White Sox pay Harper $40 million per year, and they're a 75 win team next year and an 82 win team in 2020 before the glut of outfielders hits in 2021 and we finally have a loaded roster...then we'll basically be paying Harper $120 million in order to have him for 1 competitive season.

That's the one thing we can't do. Opt out after year 4, maybe...year 5 ok if we have to, but if I had any choice I'd be doing it after like year 6 because I want him there for a title run. The Phillies or Braves...a team that is competitive right now...they might be able to justify a buyout after year 2 or year 3 by saying they will win a division next year with the guy. We cannot say that.

That's just not realistic. Harper is getting an opt out no later than year four. If the Sox want a leg up on the rest of the bidders, they should should front load the contract and acquiesce to the opt out after year three. Sure, it's a serious risk that they lose him after three years, but at least they'd have the leg up on renegotiating with him in that scenario (like ARod with the Yankees, Upton with the Angels, Kershaw last week with the Dodgers, etc.) The greater risk is not signing him altogether. It's better to have Bryce'd and lost than never Bryce'd at all!

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

40 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If this drags all the way into the new year, then yes I think  that's a sign of a weak market for him. Boras likes to drag things out, sometimes past the winter meetings, but he's also not dumb. If he pushes 3 teams to give better offers for Harper, and there's no sign of any movement, those teams are going to change course and fill the roles elsewhere. He can't wait that long without expecting teams to blink. 

Where did you get 3 teams from ?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Heyward had 2 opt-outs, one after year 3 and another after year 4. And honestly, I still think this is the one way the White Sox could lose out on both of them. We aren't going to be a competitive team in 2019 and even if we sign one of them, I'm skeptical about 2020 (Abreu needs replaced, Kopech coming back from the DL might very well need time to re-find the control he built over 4 months of this season, the catchers will be up but young). If the White Sox pay Harper $40 million per year, and they're a 75 win team next year and an 82 win team in 2020 before the glut of outfielders hits in 2021 and we finally have a loaded roster...then we'll basically be paying Harper $120 million in order to have him for 1 competitive season.

That's the one thing we can't do. Opt out after year 4, maybe...year 5 ok if we have to, but if I had any choice I'd be doing it after like year 6 because I want him there for a title run. The Phillies or Braves...a team that is competitive right now...they might be able to justify a buyout after year 2 or year 3 by saying they will win a division next year with the guy. We cannot say that.

So you honestly think if the Sox get the whale  they do nothing else to move up the timeline up with all the payroll space they have. with the new TV contract looming with the other kids still a few years away ? I know you're all worried about the kids getting blocked but sorry , deal with that when the kids actually get here.

My theory is the backwards rebuild. Instead of the free agents to supplemrnt the roster  you use free agency  plus the young guys already up to built the roster into a contender with the one whale contract plus the smaller 1-3 possibly 4 yr deals which almost max out the payroll right away. Then depending on how the years go you either keep them or trade them. When the smaller contracts run out is  when the new kids arrive while now the payroll gets lower to create room for more moves and/or pay for the older kids arbitration  years.

I think this way actually keeps the window open longer if you look at what happens to a team like Cleveland  or the Cubs when the payroll maxes out and they are handcuffed.

Edited November 13, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
fix typos 11/13

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So you honestly think if the Sox get the whale  they do nothing else to move up the timeline up with all the payroll space they have. with the new TV contract looming with the other kids still a few years away ? I know you're all worried about the kids getting blocked but sorry , deal with that when the kids actually get here.

My theory is the backwards rebuild. Instead of the free agents to supplemrnt the roster  you use free agency  plus the young guys already up to built the roster into a contender with the one whale contract plus the smaller 1-3 possibly 4 yr deals which almost max out the payroll right away. Then depending on how the years go you either keep them or trade them. When the smaller contracts run out is  when the new kids arrive while now the payroll gets lower to create room for more moves and/or pay for the older kids arbitration  years.

I think this way actually keeps the window open longer if you look at what happens to a team like Cleveland  or the Cubs when the payroll maxes out and they are handcuffed.

If the White Sox lock up $40 million in Bryce Harper, then they are going to be either signing scrubs to fill those positions if they keep the payroll low,  or they're going to be overpaying for the guys we've seen mentioned here over the past week and showing that they learned no lessons from 15-16. We've seen that story before and we know how it goes.

[caulfield12]

Except Cleveland isn’t THAT handcuffed.

They still have an open window for the next 2-3 years if they make the right moves with Kluber/Carrasco/Bauer...and they can manage to shore up their bullpen.  

Let’s not forget two young starters and Salazar as well.

They still have two franchise position players, not to mention Encarnacion, Gomes, Alonso, Chisenhall, Zimmer and Kipnis.

On paper, they still have a much better pen than us even without Allen and Miller.

 

For now, what was a shaky pen even with Allen and Miller, will return Hand and Dan Otero on guaranteed contracts. Tyler Olson and Adam Cimber are still pre-arbitration, while Nick Goody and Jon Edwards enter their first year of arbitration. Neil Ramirez will enter arbitration for his final year.

Cimber, acquired alongside Hand, was seen as a major contributor going forward for the Indians, and had been pursued by Chris Antonetti and company in Spring Training. After allowing 17 earned over 48 1/3 in San Diego prior to the deadline, the submariner was shaky in his time in Cleveland, allowing 9 earned in just 20 innings.

The righty posted a .610 OPS against when facing righties, but a gaudy 1.062 mark against lefties. When he was dealt to Cleveland, Cimber no long was afforded the opportunities to clear his own jams, being used as a matchup righty.

Even with those struggles, Manager Terry Francona made it clear that Cimber will have an important role going forward.

“I don’t think we saw the best of Adam yet,” the skipper said. “He’s going to help us a ton. I think when he first came, he tried to do a little too much, which young guys can do sometimes. I don’t think that’s the worst trait in somebody. But when it starts next year, he’ll be one of our mainstays.”

Edwards, a September call-up, performed admirably in his return from a worn UCL, allowing three earned over 8 2/3 innings. The 30-year-old boasted career-high velocities with all three of his pitches.

The team thought so highly of the right-hander that they thought about carrying him on the post-season roster, presumably over Otero. Ultimately, he was left off the 25-man to be fair to his future.

“That was a long, convoluted way of saying we really like this kid, and I think, with a normal offseason, he’s going to come back next year and play a huge part in our bullpen,” Francona added.

Righty Cody Anderson began to break out as a bullpen arm in 2016, allowing an .814 OPS out of the bullpen before also falling victim to Tommy John. The 28-year-old began pitching in games again in August and September and is expected to enter Spring Training with no restrictions.

Anderson will also enter his first year of arbitration in 2019.

Then there is Danny Salazar.

The 28-year-old has faced a constantly uphill battle against his right arm, dealing with elbow inflammation and rotator cuff tendonitis before undergoing season-ending arm surgery in early July. The jury, per usual, is still out on the talented righty going forward.

[Balta1701]

27 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Where did you get 3 teams from ?

Just a guess about how many might last through the winter meetings. Teams will drop out from their offers if he pushes too long. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If the White Sox lock up $40 million in Bryce Harper, then they are going to be either signing scrubs to fill those positions if they keep the payroll low,  or they're going to be overpaying for the guys we've seen mentioned here over the past week and showing that they learned no lessons from 15-16. We've seen that story before and we know how it goes.

Then they’re not signing Harper or Machado, or even AJ Pollock.

They’re in the even more unlikely Arenado/Rendon 2019-20 boat...and bailing water as quickly as possible.

You can’t hold onto Harper for at least four years, it’s pretty much pointless.  There are too many teams like the Phillies, Cardinals and Braves that could use him right away for playoff contention.

[Bob Sacamano]

I think giving opt-outs after years 4 and 5 would be a good motivator to potentially open up the window in 2019. Yes, they would have to add a couple more pieces to the lineup (example: if signing Harper, sign Donaldson or Lowrie to play 3B; if Machado, add an OF) and a SP or two, but you can hope that the youngsters make strides and hope they can catch lightning in a bottle. They also wouldn't lose any prospects going this route so it wouldn't be that bad of a plan. It wouldn't be completely abandoning the rebuilding idea.

Edited November 13, 2018 by soxfan2014

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If the White Sox lock up $40 million in Bryce Harper, then they are going to be either signing scrubs to fill those positions if they keep the payroll low,  or they're going to be overpaying for the guys we've seen mentioned here over the past week and showing that they learned no lessons from 15-16. We've seen that story before and we know how it goes.

I disagree, this is a whole new story with a whole new set of circumstances with a young core already here and more on the way. Eloy Moncada Giolito Lopez and all the young relievers. There's probably a reason why are seeing the Sox mentioned interested in a lot of different free agents. I'd actually love for the whale situations to be resolved early. That way if the Sox don't get one of them we just fill the pitching gaps like Hahn originally said and we tank another year, It would be disappointing but but it still part of the plan for 2020/21. They either move up the timeline or can move back to the original plan.

 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I disagree, this is a whole new story with a whole new set of circumstances with a young core already here and more on the way. Eloy Moncada Giolito Lopez and all the young relievers. There's probably a reason why are seeing the Sox mentioned interested in a lot of different free agents. I'd actually love for the whale situations to be resolved early. That way if the Sox don't get one of them we just fill the pitching gaps like Hahn originally said and we tank another year, It would be disappointing but but it still part of the plan for 2020/21. They either move up the timeline or can move back to the original plan.

 

It's a whole new story but also there's not one established above average big leaguer in the list of names you just mentioned  and there's only 1 that I have good confidence in next year. If someone genuinely believed that we were in good shape next year you'd be figuring out backup plans for the bullpen and both of the starting pitchers you mentioned.

[Lillian]

I had previously suggested a heavily front loaded contract, with an opt out after 5 years, and a contingency opt out after only 3 years, if the Sox had not managed to achieve competitiveness, by that 3RD year. I've considered the feasibility of relying solely on heavy front loading, as a means of mitigating the risk of his opting out, before the point, at which the Sox expect to be competitive. That could work, however the problem is that some team may offer to significantly increase the later years of the contract, if he would agree to opt out and sign with that organization.

Therefore, it still seems like a reasonable strategy to offer the "contingency" opt out, after perhaps 3 years, based upon whether, or not, the team has realized the goal of becoming competitive. One thing to consider is that such a clause could have the effect of reassuring Harper of the front office's good intentions. He could well conclude that they are serious about filling out the roster with the pieces needed. After all, why would they offer such a contingency opt out, unless they intended to compete. 

Finally, it's worth remembering that if the Sox cannot achieve that goal, by the end of the 2021 season, they should be willing to see him opt out, with the consolation being that they would dramatically reduce their payroll, on what could then be considered a wasted effort. 

At some point, management has to see that the player is willing to commit to the team. This is not a one way street. What is Harper willing to bring to the table? Do you really want the Sox to make that kind of commitment to a guy, who is only interested in the money? I certainly don't.

Why not propose $50 million, per year, for the first 5 years, with an opt out, after that point and the contingency opt out, after the 3RD year? The remainder of the contract could be another 5 years, at some lesser amount, perhaps $25 to $30 million per year. If that wouldn't get it done, it could well be a signal that the front office should consider other ways to spend that money.

[Lillian]

With Harper, the Sox could be competitive this season, if they added 2 starters and one dominant reliever. If they also added Donaldson, or Lowrie, they could very well give the Indians a run for their money. Then if and when Avi and, or Abreu are gone, they could consider another addition, or two, for 2020, depending upon how the prospects had progressed. 

What significant holes do you see in this roster?:

2ND. Moncada

3RD   Lowrie

RF      Harper

1B     Abreu

LF     Eloy

DH   Avi or Palka, depending upon who is healthy and producing

C.     Narvaez/Castillo

SS    Anderson

CF    Engel (That glove & speed are needed in CF, if Eloy and Harper are at the corners)

Utility infielder Yolmer Sanchez

Starters: Corbin, Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, ???? (Cease later in the year) 

Bullpen: Fry, Hamilton, Minaya, Bummer/Banuelos, Burdi, Jones, closer to be acquired

Edited November 13, 2018 by Lillian

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Lillian said:

With Harper, the Sox could be competitive this season, if they added 2 starters and one dominant reliever. If they also added Donaldson, or Lowrie, they could very well give the Indians a run for their money. Then if and when Avi and, or Abreu are gone, they could consider another addition, or two, for 2020, depending upon how the prospects had progressed. 

What significant holes do you see in this roster?:

2ND. Moncada

3RD   Lowrie

RF      Harper

1B     Abreu

LF     Eloy

DH   Avi or Palka, depending upon who is healthy and producing

C.     Narvaez/Castillo

SS    Anderson

CF    Engel (That glove & speed are needed in CF, if Eloy and Harper are at the corners)

Utility infielder Yolmer Sanchez

Starters: Corbin, Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, ???? (Cease later in the year) 

Bullpen: Fry, Hamilton, Minaya, Bummer/Banuelos, Burdi, Jones, closer to be acquired

That rotation and that bullpen are very weak and are both very significant holes. Your CF position is also a substantial hole. Your 3b position is at least a worry, if Lowrie does anything like what he did in 2011-2016, rather than the late career renaissance he's had the last couple years. It's going to be tough for that team to compete with Cleveland unless everything goes right and a whole lot of guys break out, on paper Cleveland is way better than that.

[raBBit]

1 hour ago, Lillian said:

With Harper, the Sox could be competitive this season, if they added 2 starters and one dominant reliever. If they also added Donaldson, or Lowrie, they could very well give the Indians a run for their money. Then if and when Avi and, or Abreu are gone, they could consider another addition, or two, for 2020, depending upon how the prospects had progressed. 

What significant holes do you see in this roster?:

2ND. Moncada

3RD   Lowrie

RF      Harper

1B     Abreu

LF     Eloy

DH   Avi or Palka, depending upon who is healthy and producing

C.     Narvaez/Castillo

SS    Anderson

CF    Engel (That glove & speed are needed in CF, if Eloy and Harper are at the corners)

Utility infielder Yolmer Sanchez

Starters: Corbin, Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, ???? (Cease later in the year) 

Bullpen: Fry, Hamilton, Minaya, Bummer/Banuelos, Burdi, Jones, closer to be acquired

Prof. Balta gives you a D on your offseason idea and bids you good day!

[Lillian]

9 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Prof. Balta gives you a D on your offseason idea and bids you good day!

Yes, I guess he's a pretty tough grader. LOL

For my part, I don't think that a team has to have a better than average player at every position. If that's the criteria, then I suppose that my suggestion deserved a "failing grade".  

I still subscribe to the old formula of pitching first, a productive top two thirds of the line up and settling for great defense at a few key positions, such as CF, SS and catcher. Whatever production you get out of those 3 positions, could suffice, if they provide plus defense.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Lillian

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Yes, I guess he's a pretty tough grader. LOL

For my part, I don't think that the team has to have a better than average player at every position. If that's the criteria, then I suppose that my suggestion deserved a "failing grade".  

Even though they're losing Brantley, that Cleveland team is still very strong. In the Fangraphs world, we're talking about a team that has put up >55 WAR at least each of the last 2 seasons. A little bit of maneuvering in their bullpen would have a good chance to leave them with a better record than they had in 2018, and we saw what it takes to make a run at the wild card this year - you have to hang with the Yankees and Red Sox. 

If you want to tell me your team is competitive you have to tell me how you are going to win 95 games on paper. If that pitching staff wins 95 games then I never want to hear a bad word uttered about Cooper again because that would be the greatest successful development of a group of pitchers we'll ever see. It not out of the realm of possibility, but that shouldn't leave us with confidence.