2018-9 MLB off season free agency thread

[ChiSoxFanMike]

In hindsight, the Nova trade looks like a massive overpay.

[BigSexy23]

9 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

In hindsight, the Nova trade looks like a massive overpay.

Yeah...I mean we didn't give up much for him but in my opinion, we could have definitely gotten someone cheaper for the same if not better....

[fathom]

50 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

In hindsight, the Nova trade looks like a massive overpay.

Yeah so does Herrera.  Goes without saying, but Hahn really needs to finish the offseason strong to avoid “losing the offseason”.  

Edited February 1, 2019 by fathom

[he gone.]

Alonso and Nova were definitely overpays. While although we really didn't give up anything of note, we still are paying a larger salary than necessary based on the FA market.

Take the $2.5 for McCann and give it to Gattis. Take the $9mm for Nova and give it Bucholz and _______ as FA's.  Take the $9mm for Alonso and apply it towards literally anybody.

I definitely would have done the offseason in a different way, but whatever. None of these moves really matter long term anyways. Not like Alonso, CarGo, Miley, Gattis, Bucholz, etc. really matter in our quest of a 2021 championship.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Alonso and Nova were definitely overpays. While although we really didn't give up anything of note, we still are paying a larger salary than necessary based on the FA market.

Take the $2.5 for McCann and give it to Gattis. Take the $9mm for Nova and give it Bucholz and _______ as FA's.  Take the $9mm for Alonso and apply it towards literally anybody.

I definitely would have done the offseason in a different way, but whatever. None of these moves really matter long term anyways. Not like Alonso, CarGo, Miley, Gattis, Bucholz, etc. really matter in our quest of a 2021 championship.

Shelby Miller, Miley and Kelley, etc.

Of course, whenever we win the offseason or win trades, it almost never turns out that way in reality...other than Jimenez and Cease so far.

[ptatc]

16 hours ago, fathom said:

Yeah so does Herrera.  Goes without saying, but Hahn really needs to finish the offseason strong to avoid “losing the offseason”.  

Considering he "won" offseasons and had terrible years maybe "losing" the off season could be a good thing.

[iWiN4PreP]

16 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Alonso and Nova were definitely overpays. While although we really didn't give up anything of note, we still are paying a larger salary than necessary based on the FA market.

Take the $2.5 for McCann and give it to Gattis. Take the $9mm for Nova and give it Bucholz and _______ as FA's.  Take the $9mm for Alonso and apply it towards literally anybody.

I definitely would have done the offseason in a different way, but whatever. None of these moves really matter long term anyways. Not like Alonso, CarGo, Miley, Gattis, Bucholz, etc. really matter in our quest of a 2021 championship.

This is a great analysis of our offseason so far.

If we don't get one of harper/Machado we have had a very bad offseason, however, none of it is critically dampening to our long-term success with the rebuild. 

However, I'm much more skeptical about our future due to these poor moves now compared to where I was prior to the off season. It just seems like the front office continues to fail (but I admit that the jury is still out here). 

[ChiSox59]

Alonso is a much better player than most here give him credit for. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by ChiSox59

[southsider2k5]

 

[Sleepy Harold]

 

[ChiSox59]

19 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

 

Wow, poor Matty only getting a minor league deal.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Alonso and Nova were definitely overpays. While although we really didn't give up anything of note, we still are paying a larger salary than necessary based on the FA market.

Take the $2.5 for McCann and give it to Gattis. Take the $9mm for Nova and give it Bucholz and _______ as FA's.  Take the $9mm for Alonso and apply it towards literally anybody.

I definitely would have done the offseason in a different way, but whatever. None of these moves really matter long term anyways. Not like Alonso, CarGo, Miley, Gattis, Bucholz, etc. really matter in our quest of a 2021 championship.

I think when you analyze which pitcher you are going to pay you need to look a little closer. Nova, in the last 3 years pitched over 160 innings each of those years. He was exactly what the Sox were looking for . Bucholz is not that , Miley is not that. I would have loved Miley but he only pitched 80 innings last year. Good option for 5th starter . Bucholz pitched 98 innings last year 7 innings in 2017. Again good option for 5th starter but not a replacement for Nova. Last time Bucholz pitched over 160 innings was 2014. Find me a guy like Nova who pitched 160 innings or more the last 3 years who costs less than Nova and only have him for 1 year, then we can begin the real discussion.

Edited February 1, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think when you analyze which pitcher you are going to pay you need to look a little closer. Nova, in the last 3 years pitched over 160 innings each of those years. He was exactly what the Sox were looking for . Bucholz is not that , Miley is not that. I would have loved Miley but he only pitched 80 innings last year. Good option for 5th starter . Bucholz pitched 98 innings last year 7 innings in 2017. Again good option for 5th starter but not a replacement for Nova. Last time Bucholz pitched over 160 innings was 2014. Find me a guy like Nova who pitched 160 innings or more the last 3 years who costs less than Nova and only have him for 1 year, then we can begin the real discussion.

You want the real answer? You don't want it do you. 160+ innings nearly every year, in fact 200 last year, and would be cheaper on a 1 year contract. You don't want to hear the name. No one does. He pitched for the White Sox last year. Yeah that guy.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

You want the real answer? You don't want it do you. 160+ innings nearly every year, in fact 200 last year, and would be cheaper on a 1 year contract. You don't want to hear the name. No one does. He pitched for the White Sox last year. Yeah that guy.

37 vs. 32 though. He comes with much higher risk than Nova. But yes, he did exactly that last year and was a quiet innings eater everyone overlooked. I think the Sox didn't want to go back down that road.

[pcq]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Wow, poor Matty only getting a minor league deal.  

Not a strong market for Sox castoffs but made the MLB news with mention of his pitching potential  

[pcq]

The pitching could be significant when you are down to your last man in the pen but have another guy on the bench who could save your skin. When you go with 13 pitchers something has to give. 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, pcq said:

The pitching could be significant when you are down to your last man in the pen but have another guy on the bench who could save your skin. When you go with 13 pitchers something has to give. 

It's really weird to think 13 pitchers isn't enough. I'm old. I remember when there was 10 and the last couple didn't pitch much.

[pcq]

Just now, ptatc said:

It's really weird to think 13 pitchers isn't enough. I'm old. I remember when there was 10 and the last couple didn't pitch much.

I think there were nine man staffs in the 60's . Three catchers were seen and maybe six OFs .

[ptatc]

5 hours ago, pcq said:

I think there were nine man staffs in the 60's . Three catchers were seen and maybe six OFs .

That's was even before  my time when I can remember going to games.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

You want the real answer? You don't want it do you. 160+ innings nearly every year, in fact 200 last year, and would be cheaper on a 1 year contract. You don't want to hear the name. No one does. He pitched for the White Sox last year. Yeah that guy.

Thank you .My point exactly. A bunch of posters claiming Nova was an overpay and hence the off season was bad. I am hearing crickets for a cheaper, just as reliable ,1 year starting pitcher as Nova. Nova's salary is just about the same as Shields last year.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

37 vs. 32 though. He comes with much higher risk than Nova. But yes, he did exactly that last year and was a quiet innings eater everyone overlooked. I think the Sox didn't want to go back down that road.

That's the point he was making. When I asked the question that Balta answered I already knew one option was Shields . So the Sox had to replace Shields with a younger, better version of Shields who was only going to be around 1 year. I expected that answer but I am really waiting for the answers to my question from the guys who think Nova was an over pay and would've rather had Miley or Bucholz for cheaper but were not reliable innings eaters.

[caulfield12]

Bartolo Colon, Ervin Santana, Edwin Jackson, Yovanni Gallardo, Gio, Jason Hammel, Liriano, Fister...those are the type of names you’re looking at in terms of durability.  Scant pickings.  But guys like Edwin, Anibal Sanchez and even Edinson Volquez are still in demand, by someone at least.

Interestingly, Sale is now 31st on the active innings pitched leaders, Quintana 38th.  Shields was 6th.

In the top 13 you have Sabathia and Verlander that are shoo-ins for the HoF.  Scherzer’s closer and closer.  Kershaw, of course.  Then you have Greinke, Felix Hernandez (fading), Lester, Wainright and Price with work still left to do.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That's the point he was making. When I asked the question that Balta answered I already knew one option was Shields . So the Sox had to replace Shields with a younger, better version of Shields who was only going to be around 1 year. I expected that answer but I am really waiting for the answers to my question from the guys who think Nova was an over pay and would've rather had Miley or Bucholz for cheaper but were not reliable innings eaters.

I think it's safe to say that when you look at most of the deals the White Sox have done this offseason, they have slightly overpaid for pretty much everyone. But, for the most part it doesn't hugely bother me that they did because they got guys who fill specific roles, and since I don't think they're competitive I can't be that mad that the $15 million wasn't better spent. There's still just one deal that stands out where we did something different and that's the one that worries me.

Nova - yeah he's more expensive than what guys are getting on the FA market, but we didn't give up anything of importance to get him and he fills a role we needed to fill. You could have signed Miley and someone else for his money, but then you wouldn't have the confidence in his innings, and let's face it we can't be that mad about spending more money to not bring Shields back.

Herrera - there are probably cheaper options still on the FA market, but he does have more closing experience than most of them, so if it's an extra couple million overall it's not a big loss. If he's bad he's bad, if he's good then he's tradeable.

Jay and Alonso - clear overpays based on production, but they're here because the Machado thread is on page 550 something. Gave up Call for Yonder, but even if he somehow has a miracle breakout year he wouldn't have done that in our system as there are other guys who will get the OF playing time. Annoying, wastes a few million dollars, should really annoy anyone who thought we could compete next year, but if it gives Machado reason to tolerate here for a year or two while we wait for guys to come up...acceptable. 

McCann - a little more expensive than necessary, but has had good years in the past. Maybe a little waste of money, but once smith was lost (maybe another mistake there), like it or not the role had to be filled..

The one that still bugs me is Narvaez for Colome. He's not only more expensive than the comparable guys on the FA market, we gave up a player to get him. Had we waited, we coulda saved money, still had Narvaez, and found comparable relievers as FA. Maybe someone in this org is screaming that they love Colome, but this seems like the only one that could come back to hurt us. All the other ones we gave up money alone. This one, we gave up a player with multiple years of control remaining who already proved he could hit. Maybe he'll never improve on defense and we won't mind this, maybe he wouldn't have improved with us and I should be taking shots with the coaching staff, maybe all Narvaez should be thought of is as a lottery ticket, but with his offensive performance last year at the least he's a lottery ticket with a couple numbers already correct. If Seattle's either more patient than us or better at coaching defense than us, there's a chance we gave up a decent or even really good catcher and in a couple years we'll need to fill that position. 

That last one is the one that is different than all the others. I wouldn't mind that Colome is more expensive than comparable FAs, if we didn't have to give up a player who at least has a decent shot of being a good big league player.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think it's safe to say that when you look at most of the deals the White Sox have done this offseason, they have slightly overpaid for pretty much everyone. But, for the most part it doesn't hugely bother me that they did because they got guys who fill specific roles, and since I don't think they're competitive I can't be that mad that the $15 million wasn't better spent. There's still just one deal that stands out where we did something different and that's the one that worries me.

Nova - yeah he's more expensive than what guys are getting on the FA market, but we didn't give up anything of importance to get him and he fills a role we needed to fill. You could have signed Miley and someone else for his money, but then you wouldn't have the confidence in his innings, and let's face it we can't be that mad about spending more money to not bring Shields back.

Herrera - there are probably cheaper options still on the FA market, but he does have more closing experience than most of them, so if it's an extra couple million overall it's not a big loss. If he's bad he's bad, if he's good then he's tradeable.

Jay and Alonso - clear overpays based on production, but they're here because the Machado thread is on page 550 something. Gave up Call for Yonder, but even if he somehow has a miracle breakout year he wouldn't have done that in our system as there are other guys who will get the OF playing time. Annoying, wastes a few million dollars, should really annoy anyone who thought we could compete next year, but if it gives Machado reason to tolerate here for a year or two while we wait for guys to come up...acceptable. 

McCann - a little more expensive than necessary, but has had good years in the past. Maybe a little waste of money, but once smith was lost (maybe another mistake there), like it or not the role had to be filled..

The one that still bugs me is Narvaez for Colome. He's not only more expensive than the comparable guys on the FA market, we gave up a player to get him. Had we waited, we coulda saved money, still had Narvaez, and found comparable relievers as FA. Maybe someone in this org is screaming that they love Colome, but this seems like the only one that could come back to hurt us. All the other ones we gave up money alone. This one, we gave up a player with multiple years of control remaining who already proved he could hit. Maybe he'll never improve on defense and we won't mind this, maybe he wouldn't have improved with us and I should be taking shots with the coaching staff, maybe all Narvaez should be thought of is as a lottery ticket, but with his offensive performance last year at the least he's a lottery ticket with a couple numbers already correct. If Seattle's either more patient than us or better at coaching defense than us, there's a chance we gave up a decent or even really good catcher and in a couple years we'll need to fill that position. 

That last one is the one that is different than all the others. I wouldn't mind that Colome is more expensive than comparable FAs, if we didn't have to give up a player who at least has a decent shot of being a good big league player.

Your lack of watching White Sox games is ever apparent if you think Omar Narvaez has a decent shot of being a good big league player.  He is one of the worst defensive catchers I have seen in Sox history and has very little hopes of getting better IMO.  His 2018 offensive season was a huge fluke and his xWOBA last year supports that.  For a team that will be developing a lot of young arms over the next couple seasons, they were smart to sell high on him.  Debating the return is fair, but my guess is Omar had little to no value across the league and the Sox like Colome more than others.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Your lack of watching White Sox games is ever apparent if you think Omar Narvaez has a decent shot of being a good big league player.  He is one of the worst defensive catchers I have seen in Sox history and has very little hopes of getting better IMO.  His 2018 offensive season was a huge fluke and his xWOBA last year supports that.  For a team that will be developing a lot of young arms over the next couple seasons, they were smart to sell high on him.  Debating the return is fair, but my guess is Omar had little to no value across the league and the Sox like Colome more than others.

The one thing I gotta say is - they really didn't "sell high" on him. You can find a comparable reliever to Colome on the free agent market right now. Jared Hughes signed for $2.25 million this week, Colome is getting $7.5 million or whatever, and their numbers are pretty similar the last several years. There's other gambles signing for tiny sums right now also if we want someone with a better track record coming off a bad year, all for far less than Colome is getting. Maybe the org is absolutely in love with Colome as you note, but compared to comparable free agents that's still a $5 million premium this year for the guy they're in love with before you count the player they sent out. The white sox "Sold" on Narvaez, they certainly didn't sell high on him. And fine, maybe he never does become anything of value, but as I said, I'd rather have had the cheap lottery ticket than the expensive one.