Amazon HQ2

[NorthSideSox72]

13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

There was an article in one of the NY papers discussing this with their governor Cuomo. He said that the top 1% of the tax payers paid 46% of the revenue in 2017. They raised the taxes on that group and one third of them moved their primary residence to Florida causing a 3.5 billion dollar loss in revenue last year.

People who can afford to move will, if they increase the burden to a critical amount. It's just depends if the state can figure out that critical amount.

I have a very hard time believing that a THIRD of them changed residency. I am sure some did, but that number just seems unbelievable to me.

 

[G&T]

12 hours ago, greg775 said:

New Yorkers are outraged. There were going to be jobs galore, high paying jobs and other jobs jobs jobs. The neighborhood business owners are crushed; the real estate people are crushed. You give a big company tax breaks because of all the jobs created and ensuing money dumped in the neighborhoods. It's pretty simple. Socialists like AOC don't want to play hardball with companies. A lot of people are upset in New York as they continue to seek work. This would have helped the economy big time.

Read this take. AOC has some explainin' to do.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/14/smug-politicians-scammed-nyc-out-of-amazons-hq2-and-ruined-it-for-everyone/

Please stop. Amazon doesn't care what people think. This was a business decision. I haven't negotiated a deal of that size, but I have negotiated financial packages for job creation, and I have yet to see a company that didn't cut the jobs guarantee during negotiations. Everyone involved knows these deals are political fiascos, and are ready to fight for them. I will guess that this deal died because Amazon didn't think the creation would be there to get the full incentives.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, pettie4sox said:

You can't keep everyone there but if you think people will stop investing in NY because they wouldn't cave to Amazon's demand that is something else.

It's a fine line between the two. They need to decide if caving in is worth it. They decided it wasn't. However, if they do it too often it can be detrimental. There is no revenue without businesses and tax payers.

[ptatc]

59 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I have a very hard time believing that a THIRD of them changed residency. I am sure some did, but that number just seems unbelievable to me.

 

That's what the what he said. He didn't say the number, I'm not sure what the number is from the top 1% of tax payers.

[pettie4sox]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

It's a fine line between the two. They need to decide if caving in is worth it. They decided it wasn't. However, if they do it too often it can be detrimental. There is no revenue without businesses and tax payers.

I agree as long is there is balance that's all that matters.

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

I agree as long is there is balance that's all that matters.

Of course, and it's different for every city and every situation. Its what makes economic sense for growth and revenue. That's why any hardline stance either way doesn't work. There has to be some tax incentive to bribe the companies in, because if they don't there is always someone who will, but it needs to make sense for the situation.

[Harry Chappas]

You can leave a state because of taxes but then you need to go to a state and find a job that has comparable income.  For instance using police officers as their slary is readily avaailable. 

Average Chicago cop salary $80K

Average cop salary nationally $53K 

Average Birmingham, AL salary $44K

When people talk about uprooting and moving there is a much larger picture to view than, oh taxes there are low. 

 

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I have a very hard time believing that a THIRD of them changed residency. I am sure some did, but that number just seems unbelievable to me.

 

Personal income tax receipts in New York State have increased every year since 2010. From FY 2017 to 2018 they increased by $4 billion.

[lostfan]

There was (vehement) local opposition to this deal months before AOC came into office so I don't know how everyone is so quick to give her credit/blame. Like a lot of  NYers she wasn't a fan of this deal but she's not the mayor or governor and wasn't involved in negotiating the deal. This isn't even in her congressional district. She's just a lightning rod, I guess.

[StrangeSox]

Amazon will probably just pull stunts like this

 

 

[pettie4sox]

20 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

Amazon will probably just pull stunts like this

 

 

How can anyone be OK with this shit?

[ptatc]

22 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Personal income tax receipts in New York State have increased every year since 2010. From FY 2017 to 2018 they increased by $4 billion.

Maybe gross numbers it did but it's down 2.3 billion from what they expected.

https://www.recordonline.com/news/20190204/cuomo-federal-tax-cuts-are-creating-23b-state-budget-deficit

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/cuomos-budget-rich-high-taxes/

 

[Quin]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:53 AM, greg775 said:

New Yorkers are outraged. There were going to be jobs galore, high paying jobs and other jobs jobs jobs. The neighborhood business owners are crushed; the real estate people are crushed. You give a big company tax breaks because of all the jobs created and ensuing money dumped in the neighborhoods. It's pretty simple. Socialists like AOC don't want to play hardball with companies. A lot of people are upset in New York as they continue to seek work. This would have helped the economy big time.

Read this take. AOC has some explainin' to do.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/14/smug-politicians-scammed-nyc-out-of-amazons-hq2-and-ruined-it-for-everyone/

A News Corp opinion article = / = New Yorkers. A lot of NYers were pissed off because we have to deal with inflating rent, shit traffic and a subway system with a schedule that can best be summed up with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ o'clock. Along comes a massive company that's about to inflate rent more, increase traffic and the city is letting them out of paying a big chunk of change that could fix that broken subway.

I would have actually liked to have seen this deal get done if NYC had used it's actual desirable location as a bargaining chip. If in return for subsidies, tax breaks, etc. Amazon agreed to invest in low-and-mid-income housing, transportation and other infrastructure projects? Shiiiiit, New Yorkers would have welcomed them with open arms.

So, please stop using Murdoch's mouthpieces to sum up "New Yorkers" as outraged. They shouldn't be celebrating this as some massive victory, but people aren't out raging cause of "jobs jobs jobs."

Here's a more carefully nuanced article that doesn't read like the transcript from a radio station playing in Kansas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/opinion/amazon-new-york.html

[The Sir]

On 2/16/2019 at 5:22 PM, Quin said:

A News Corp opinion article = / = New Yorkers. A lot of NYers were pissed off because we have to deal with inflating rent, shit traffic and a subway system with a schedule that can best be summed up with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ o'clock. Along comes a massive company that's about to inflate rent more, increase traffic and the city is letting them out of paying a big chunk of change that could fix that broken subway.

I would have actually liked to have seen this deal get done if NYC had used it's actual desirable location as a bargaining chip. If in return for subsidies, tax breaks, etc. Amazon agreed to invest in low-and-mid-income housing, transportation and other infrastructure projects? Shiiiiit, New Yorkers would have welcomed them with open arms.

So, please stop using Murdoch's mouthpieces to sum up "New Yorkers" as outraged. They shouldn't be celebrating this as some massive victory, but people aren't out raging cause of "jobs jobs jobs."

Here's a more carefully nuanced article that doesn't read like the transcript from a radio station playing in Kansas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/opinion/amazon-new-york.html

This is an insanely awful post.

Everyone's focused on the "big chunk of change" that Amazon wasn't going to pay, but completely ignoring the much larger chunk which they were going to pay. Assuming you could have gotten your dysfunctional government and idiot mayor to do something right, that money could have been used to fix the subway system. But instead, you chose no additional tax revenue. Good job!

Amazon doesn't have a responsibility to invest in "low-and-mid-income housing, transportation and other infrastructure projects". No company does. Their investment was going to be in paying 25,000 New Yorkers on a long-term basis, who then could have spent that money on anything they pleased, be it low-income-housing or strippers. But the politicians made that choice for them- they will not be spending that money on anything at all. Good job!

Nice jab at "flyover country" at the end there. Feel free to look down your nose at us hicks, but I live in a beautiful and clean city with good traffic flow, low crime, and low cost of living. Enjoy your fucked up subway system.

[Eminor3rd]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:53 AM, greg775 said:

New Yorkers are outraged. There were going to be jobs galore, high paying jobs and other jobs jobs jobs. The neighborhood business owners are crushed; the real estate people are crushed. You give a big company tax breaks because of all the jobs created and ensuing money dumped in the neighborhoods. It's pretty simple. Socialists like AOC don't want to play hardball with companies. A lot of people are upset in New York as they continue to seek work. This would have helped the economy big time.

Read this take. AOC has some explainin' to do.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/14/smug-politicians-scammed-nyc-out-of-amazons-hq2-and-ruined-it-for-everyone/

I live in NYC. I have colleagues and friends that live in Astoria. 

I have encountered literally no one that’s outraged. 

The LAST thing we need in this city is more people. Why would we want to use tax funds to make that happen?

The last reported unemployment rate in NYC is 4.3%. 

[Quin]

3 hours ago, The Sir said:

This is an insanely awful post.

Everyone's focused on the "big chunk of change" that Amazon wasn't going to pay, but completely ignoring the much larger chunk which they were going to pay. Assuming you could have gotten your dysfunctional government and idiot mayor to do something right, that money could have been used to fix the subway system. But instead, you chose no additional tax revenue. Good job!

Amazon doesn't have a responsibility to invest in "low-and-mid-income housing, transportation and other infrastructure projects". No company does. Their investment was going to be in paying 25,000 New Yorkers on a long-term basis, who then could have spent that money on anything they pleased, be it low-income-housing or strippers. But the politicians made that choice for them- they will not be spending that money on anything at all. Good job!

Nice jab at "flyover country" at the end there. Feel free to look down your nose at us hicks, but I live in a beautiful and clean city with good traffic flow, low crime, and low cost of living. Enjoy your fucked up subway system.

The jab was at Greg's news gathering of choice. I love the midwest and "flyover country." I miss driving through the middle of IL and MO and would take it 10/10 over the subway here. I miss I-57 and I-70, so please, reexamine your conclusions.

And no, Amazon has no responsibility for it. But that's why New Yorkers were mad. New York had a bargaining chip with it's location and Amazon was only going to worsen those situations with a campus in Long Island City.

Alternatively, as the Times put it, if De Blasio and Cuomo and fixed that shit prior, this might not have been a problem. But they've repeatedly fucked it up and the only political challengers to them since I've been here have been, well, awful.

[The Sir]

9 minutes ago, Quin said:

The jab was at Greg's news gathering of choice. I love the midwest and "flyover country." I miss driving through the middle of IL and MO and would take it 10/10 over the subway here. I miss I-57 and I-70, so please, reexamine your conclusions.

And no, Amazon has no responsibility for it. But that's why New Yorkers were mad. New York had a bargaining chip with it's location and Amazon was only going to worsen those situations with a campus in Long Island City.

Alternatively, as the Times put it, if De Blasio and Cuomo and fixed that shit prior, this might not have been a problem. But they've repeatedly fucked it up and the only political challengers to them since I've been here have been, well, awful.

Dismissing his news gathering just because it's News Corp is weak. The author in Greg's article refers to polling done by Siena College indicating that a majority of NYers wanted Amazon to come in. That would back him up, somewhat scientifically, that people in that city are pissed. But all you did was scoff that News Corp =/= New Yorkers. What about the poll? Do you have something to refute it and its findings?

Congrats on actually liking flyover country. If you dislike the NYC subway so much, you could actually move out here. It isn't just nice to drive through; it is in fact a nice place to live.

[Quin]

8 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Dismissing his news gathering just because it's News Corp is weak. The author in Greg's article refers to polling done by Siena College indicating that a majority of NYers wanted Amazon to come in. That would back him up, somewhat scientifically, that people in that city are pissed. But all you did was scoff that News Corp =/= New Yorkers. What about the poll? Do you have something to refute it and its findings?

Congrats on actually liking flyover country. If you dislike the NYC subway so much, you could actually move out here. It isn't just nice to drive through; it is in fact a nice place to live.

Re: The polling - I wasn't dismissing the polling, I was dismissing one article written by a person as blanket outrage for New Yorkers.  It has long been Greg's MO and was the substantive base of many of his troll threads back when the Buster existed. If you go back and look at my "insanely awful post," I wish the deal had been done better and people celebrating Amazon just packing up and leaving are foolish. Now, I really want Chicago to get it to help revitalize the area.

Re: Moving back - I'd love to move back to Illinois. My girlfriend wants to get out of the city even more than I do, but career wise, she's even more tied to major metros than I am.

[The Sir]

8 minutes ago, Quin said:

Re: The polling - I wasn't dismissing the polling, I was dismissing one article written by a person as blanket outrage for New Yorkers.  It has long been Greg's MO and was the substantive base of many of his troll threads back when the Buster existed. If you go back and look at my "insanely awful post," I wish the deal had been done better and people celebrating Amazon just packing up and leaving are foolish. Now, I really want Chicago to get it to help revitalize the area.

Re: Moving back - I'd love to move back to Illinois. My girlfriend wants to get out of the city even more than I do, but career wise, she's even more tied to major metros than I am.

I can't comment on and don't really care about Greg's long-time MO, but again, if that person was using properly-conducted polling, then it's not unjust blanket outrage. It's a valid argument that NYers are not fans of how this played out. I'll stop beating the dead horse on that one.

Also, your girlfriend is tied to major metros, but Chicago doesn't qualify? Interesting.

[pettie4sox]

20 hours ago, Quin said:

Re: The polling - I wasn't dismissing the polling, I was dismissing one article written by a person as blanket outrage for New Yorkers.  It has long been Greg's MO and was the substantive base of many of his troll threads back when the Buster existed. If you go back and look at my "insanely awful post," I wish the deal had been done better and people celebrating Amazon just packing up and leaving are foolish. Now, I really want Chicago to get it to help revitalize the area.

Re: Moving back - I'd love to move back to Illinois. My girlfriend wants to get out of the city even more than I do, but career wise, she's even more tied to major metros than I am.

Too many people have tunnel vision and just want to get their inane point across instead of reading.  I wouldn't sweat it.

[bigruss]

21 hours ago, The Sir said:

I can't comment on and don't really care about Greg's long-time MO, but again, if that person was using properly-conducted polling, then it's not unjust blanket outrage. It's a valid argument that NYers are not fans of how this played out. I'll stop beating the dead horse on that one.

Also, your girlfriend is tied to major metros, but Chicago doesn't qualify? Interesting.

Q lived in Columbia, Missouri, I don't think he's adverse to living outside of NYC lol.  

 

[chw42]

Getting Amazon to come to your city is great if your town doesn't already have terrible traffic and incredibly inflated property values. 

That's the issue with trying to go to NYC. People don't want their rent increased or their commute times lengthened. Because their rent is already high and their traffic is already awful. 

There was a similar sentiment here in Austin. Our property values are already inflated (compared to the rest of Texas) and our traffic already sucks. Now imagine outside investors pouring money into the real estate market and adding 20,000 more cars on the road. It would suck. Yes it's better for the jobs market, but I don't think that's a very big issue here in Austin (or NYC). 

Edited February 19, 2019 by chw42

[Balta1701]

Just now, chw42 said:

Getting Amazon to come to your city is great if your town doesn't already have terrible traffic and incredibly inflated property values. 

That's the issue with trying to go to NYC. People don't want their property taxes increased or their commute times lengthened. 

There was a similar sentiment here in Austin. Our property values are already inflated (compared to the rest of Texas) and our traffic already sucks. Now imagine outside investors pouring money into the real estate market and adding 20,000 more cars on the road. It would suck. Yes it's better for the jobs market, but I don't think that's a very big issue here in Austin (or NYC). 

Austin already has a vibrant internet/startup type market as well, so the benefit for the city of trying to draw Amazon there is also muted. Those Amazon employees wouldn't have helped build or feed a new surrounding industry - just as with NYC. If they wanted to go there, they should pay a premium for access to the talent and facilities that are already established. 

If Amazon wanted the big tax incentive they shoulda gone to Rochester in NY or some place like that, a place that could really use the boost to build an industry.

[wrathofhahn]

On 2/15/2019 at 1:26 PM, G&T said:

Please stop. Amazon doesn't care what people think. This was a business decision. I haven't negotiated a deal of that size, but I have negotiated financial packages for job creation, and I have yet to see a company that didn't cut the jobs guarantee during negotiations. Everyone involved knows these deals are political fiascos, and are ready to fight for them. I will guess that this deal died because Amazon didn't think the creation would be there to get the full incentives.

That is nonsense. Amazon saw the hostile reaction of the local politicians and realized it wasn't worth it without a local buyin. There is so much more to that type of project then just whatever package of tax credits Cuomo and De Blasio conjured up to lure them to long island. They'll be dealing with building permits, zonings, and local bylaws for however long they are there whether it be 15, 20, or 30 years.

They didn't want to go to a place where the climate was hostile to businesses.

Edited March 10, 2019 by wrathofhahn

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

That is nonsense. Amazon saw the hostile reaction of the local politicians and realized it wasn't worth it without a local buyin. There is so much more to that type of project then just whatever package of tax credits Cuomo and De Blasio conjured up to lure them to long island. They'll be dealing with building permits, zonings, and local bylaws for however long they are there whether it be 15, 20, or 30 years.

They wanted to go to a place where the climate was hostile to businesses.

And came out and said that they'll still be continuing to grow their company in New York despite all those other things.