Where do they start the season?

[SoxAce]

17 hours ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I really think putting Collins in Charlotte is a mistake. Splitting playing time between Collins and Zavala slows both their development for one thing. Also Collins had major issues with AA pitching as it is - why throw him into a league with more mature pitchers? And nearly everyone feels Collins is not nearly ready to be a catcher full time, and they want to rush him up? Makes no sense to me. Feels like someone trying to protect their reputation by advancing a high pick even if they aren't ready.

 

Just take the L Matt.

[NorthSideSox72]

5 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Just take the L Matt.

Honestly not sure what you mean? I like Collins as a prospect - I just think the best thing for his development is to return to AA to start 2019. This isn't a Collins versus Zavala thing, at least not for me. Is that what you were getting at?

 

[bmags]

15 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Agreed. I think having both Castillo and McCann as FA's at the end of the year has something to do with it as well. Sox need to know what they have in both of these guys by the end of the year. I can't see the Sox picking up the $8M option on Castillo when they can buy him out for $500K.

This is a great point.

[SoxAce]

12 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Honestly not sure what you mean? I like Collins as a prospect - I just think the best thing for his development is to return to AA to start 2019. This isn't a Collins versus Zavala thing, at least not for me. Is that what you were getting at?

 

Nah just the posts earlier in this very thread about where we all think/believe these guys would start off. I actually agree with you I wanted to see Collins in AA a month or two more, but I kinda knew Getz and company would have him up in AAA to start with their timeline on certain guys. 

[NorthSideSox72]

48 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Nah just the posts earlier in this very thread about where we all think/believe these guys would start off. I actually agree with you I wanted to see Collins in AA a month or two more, but I kinda knew Getz and company would have him up in AAA to start with their timeline on certain guys. 

Ohhh, OK. Then yeah I was wrong. Clearly.

[Balta1701]

21 hours ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I really think putting Collins in Charlotte is a mistake. Splitting playing time between Collins and Zavala slows both their development for one thing. Also Collins had major issues with AA pitching as it is - why throw him into a league with more mature pitchers? And nearly everyone feels Collins is not nearly ready to be a catcher full time, and they want to rush him up? Makes no sense to me. Feels like someone trying to protect their reputation by advancing a high pick even if they aren't ready.

 

You remember in the other thread where I said that taking a college prospect and rushing him upwards because of a big league need seemed like such a white sox thing to do? There's your answer again.

[NorthSideSox72]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

You remember in the other thread where I said that taking a college prospect and rushing him upwards because of a big league need seemed like such a white sox thing to do? There's your answer again.

lol stop man, you were talking about drafting players to rush them up for contenders and that is clearly not the case here nor was it the case with any of the players you cited (other than Burdi which I agreed about). Collins was seen as around that slot in the draft, where the Sox took him, and it was known there were deep questions about his defense and therefore he might not move as fast if a team was going to try to keep him there. And we are debating here whether or not to promote a guy after a full year after AA, or maybe a couple months later. I'm all for pointing out it is a mistake, but this is not some "so White Sox" thing to do to draft Collins. Your perception is like 5 years old on this topic. Don't try to turn a single, IMO poor, developmental diecision into something unrelated about draft philosophy.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

lol stop man, you were talking about drafting players to rush them up for contenders and that is clearly not the case here nor was it the case with any of the players you cited (other than Burdi which I agreed about). Collins was seen as around that slot in the draft, where the Sox took him, and it was known there were deep questions about his defense and therefore he might not move as fast if a team was going to try to keep him there. And we are debating here whether or not to promote a guy after a full year after AA, or maybe a couple months later. I'm all for pointing out it is a mistake, but this is not some "so White Sox" thing to do to draft Collins. Your perception is like 5 years old on this topic. Don't try to turn a single, IMO poor, developmental diecision into something unrelated about draft philosophy.

Great fucking post!

[Jose Abreu]

If you don't support Collins being in AAA due to defensive concerns, then fine, but to say that he had "major issues with AA pitching" isn't even close to being accurate 

[bmags]

I do wonder if it's about keeping Collins with similar pitchers.

[NorthSideSox72]

2 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

If you don't support Collins being in AAA due to defensive concerns, then fine, but to say that he had "major issues with AA pitching" isn't even close to being accurate 

I disagree. A 30% K-rate and hitting .234 for a supposedly "polished" college hitter in his 3rd pro season, to me definitely indicates some issues. So does his swing, IMO. You can disagree, but let's not hyperbolize by saying "isn't even close to accurate". There is a good argument to make that he did well given his walk rate and power, but that doesn't mean he didn't also show some pretty serious issues. By the way, things only got worse from May on, so it's not like he was making upward improvement. He hit about .200 with a 32% K-rate in his last 2 months of play. That does not scream "ready for promotion".

 

[SoxBlanco]

2 hours ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I disagree. A 30% K-rate and hitting .234 for a supposedly "polished" college hitter in his 3rd pro season, to me definitely indicates some issues. So does his swing, IMO. You can disagree, but let's not hyperbolize by saying "isn't even close to accurate". There is a good argument to make that he did well given his walk rate and power, but that doesn't mean he didn't also show some pretty serious issues. By the way, things only got worse from May on, so it's not like he was making upward improvement. He hit about .200 with a 32% K-rate in his last 2 months of play. That does not scream "ready for promotion".

 

I think the number one reason they are promoting him is their feeling that he will be better as he moves up, based on his patience and knowledge of the zone...

“You don't want a guy in the lower level that shows patience and the ability to judge the strike zone well -- you don't want him to compromise that because of umpires or bad calls at the Double-A level. As he goes through the system, I think you are going to see, as he gets to Triple-A and the Major Leagues as the strike zone shrinks, he's going to be better off offensively.“   — Hostetler 

[Jose Abreu]

18 hours ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I disagree. A 30% K-rate and hitting .234 for a supposedly "polished" college hitter in his 3rd pro season, to me definitely indicates some issues. So does his swing, IMO. You can disagree, but let's not hyperbolize by saying "isn't even close to accurate". There is a good argument to make that he did well given his walk rate and power, but that doesn't mean he didn't also show some pretty serious issues. By the way, things only got worse from May on, so it's not like he was making upward improvement. He hit about .200 with a 32% K-rate in his last 2 months of play. That does not scream "ready for promotion".

 

I think one of the main reasons we disagree is because I don't look at batting average or consider it at all when I evaluate a player. I don't even think it's hyperbole to say that there's no way that an age-appropriate batter with a .382 OBP and 128 wRC+ had "major issues with AA pitching". I think he had a very solid season offensively.

Yes, I am aware of his high strikeout rate and I think it will always be an issue, but not enough of an issue to warrant making him repeat levels when he's towards the top of his league in OBP. I know that there are concerns that the OBP won't translate to AAA/MLB but I truly believe it will (to an extent where he's at least getting on base at an above average rate). I guess we'll see if that's the case. 

[NorthSideSox72]

On 2/2/2019 at 12:10 PM, Jose Abreu said:

I think one of the main reasons we disagree is because I don't look at batting average or consider it at all when I evaluate a player. I don't even think it's hyperbole to say that there's no way that an age-appropriate batter with a .382 OBP and 128 wRC+ had "major issues with AA pitching". I think he had a very solid season offensively.

Yes, I am aware of his high strikeout rate and I think it will always be an issue, but not enough of an issue to warrant making him repeat levels when he's towards the top of his league in OBP. I know that there are concerns that the OBP won't translate to AAA/MLB but I truly believe it will (to an extent where he's at least getting on base at an above average rate). I guess we'll see if that's the case. 

Batting average has only minimal meaning in terms of the value a hitter adds to a team. But it DOES have some value in terms of evaluating their hit tool and how they will handle advanced pitching going forward. On the other hand, I think measures like wRC that are trying to imply overall value are not useful evaluative numbers because evaluating prospects isn't about current value at a given minor league level.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Batting average has only minimal meaning in terms of the value a hitter adds to a team. But it DOES have some value in terms of evaluating their hit tool and how they will handle advanced pitching going forward. On the other hand, I think measures like wRC that are trying to imply overall value are not useful evaluative numbers because evaluating prospects isn't about current value at a given minor league level.

 

How much do you think catching has impacted the development of his bat?  My view on catching prospects is the bat typically lags behind a bit as these guys spend so much time focused on their defense & game calling.  If that’s the case, I’m actually fairy optimistic about Collins’ future offensively.  Whether you like wRC+ as a predictor of success, it does depict a path forward with the bat (on base ability + power) that could be plenty valuable.  

Based on what I’ve seen though, I do think there is room for growth in terms of contact ability.  Much like Moncada, Collins needs to find a way to be a bit more protective on balls close to the zone.  He has an elite batter’s eye but he seems to K looking on borderline pitches far too much.  It’s much easier to change one’s aggressiveness in certain counts than it is to recognize balls from strikes.  I really think Zack will improve in that regard in time.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How much do you think catching has impacted the development of his bat?  My view on catching prospects is the bat typically lags behind a bit as these guys spend so much time focused on their defense & game calling.  If that’s the case, I’m actually fairy optimistic about Collins’ future offensively.  Whether you like wRC+ as a predictor of success, it does depict a path forward with the bat (on base ability + power) that could be plenty valuable.  

Based on what I’ve seen though, I do think there is room for growth in terms of contact ability.  Much like Moncada, Collins needs to find a way to be a bit more protective on balls close to the zone.  He has an elite batter’s eye but he seems to K looking on borderline pitches far too much.  It’s much easier to change one’s aggressiveness in certain counts than it is to recognize balls from strikes.  I really think Zack will improve in that regard in time.

From what I witnessed watching his games last year, he strikes out looking on more pitches right down the plate than Yoan does. For Collins, it’s less about being able to protect on borderline pitches and more about just swinging the bat and not looking to walk every appearance.

[NorthSideSox72]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How much do you think catching has impacted the development of his bat?  My view on catching prospects is the bat typically lags behind a bit as these guys spend so much time focused on their defense & game calling.  If that’s the case, I’m actually fairy optimistic about Collins’ future offensively.  Whether you like wRC+ as a predictor of success, it does depict a path forward with the bat (on base ability + power) that could be plenty valuable.  

Based on what I’ve seen though, I do think there is room for growth in terms of contact ability.  Much like Moncada, Collins needs to find a way to be a bit more protective on balls close to the zone.  He has an elite batter’s eye but he seems to K looking on borderline pitches far too much.  It’s much easier to change one’s aggressiveness in certain counts than it is to recognize balls from strikes.  I really think Zack will improve in that regard in time.

Approach is part of the problem, but I also think his swing is an issue. That said, what's funny about this discussion is that I am also pretty optimistic on Collins. And you are right that catchers do develop funny and it's hard to do both well, but that only adds yet more reason not to rush the guy up when it's pretty clear to me he hasn't mastered that level of pitching yet (on either side of the ball).

 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

From what I witnessed watching his games last year, he strikes out looking on more pitches right down the plate than Yoan does. For Collins, it’s less about being able to protect on borderline pitches and more about just swinging the bat and not looking to walk every appearance.

Is the Barons’ park the one that has the terrible camera view?  Honestly, I’m probably assuming a lot of those pitches he took were borderline when in reality some were down the middle.