Cano to Mets deal official

[bmags]

I think we have enough justus sheffield type pitchers.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't compute how you can behind acquiring Cano at $24M AAV, but completely against signing anyone other than elite FAs unless their market completely craters.

It makes absolutely no sense at all. 

If Cano brought us an elite long term closer, or some level of a mix of top prospects, why wouldn't you?  It is getting you talent that will be on your next playoff team.

 

To be clearer, the deal isn't about Cano.  Cano would be a means to get more young and cost controlled talent that will be here for the next playoff team.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

If Cano brought us an elite long term closer, or some level of a mix of top prospects, why wouldn't you?  It is getting you talent that will be on your next playoff team.

Because effectively signing Cano to a 5-year $120M deal when he is 36 years old is insane, just to acquire a frickin' reliever.  

That is the type of move that would completely kill any chance of the Sox signing a big FA when they're actually ready, and completely kill the rebuild if Cano fell off a cliff, which he very well may do in his ages 38-41 seasons.  

There is some level of $$ thrown in by Seattle that makes acquiring Cano at least worth entertaining / spit-balling about, but its at least $50M.  

[he gone.]

4 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

This is insanity. Firstly, haniger is better and more valuable than Diaz. Secondly, you would be willing to give up Moncada  or Lopez for the right to pay $100M for 36 year old cano and four years of haniger?

What a world we live in - we're all so excited to jump down others throats! Yikes!

Maybe it wasn't phrased correctly, I was trying to say that if we were in the Mariners shoes where we were stuck at 78-84 wins per year (like we have been in the past) and it was time to make a move..... like the situation they are in........ and the WHITE SOX had a Cano like contract of 5 years and 120mm to a fictitious player that I personally would be willing to attach a Moncada or Lopez type guy to said contract to get that player off the balance sheet.

 

I say this as a White Sox fan -- not a Yankees or cubs or red sox fan. A contract like Cano's can really hinder a Mariners team. A white sox team. A royals team. a pirates team. Cleveland, etc. To be able to rid that long term liability would be absolutely huge for the Mariners and would allow their current GM to then have King Felix AND Cano off the books for next years free agency and put his own stamp on the club.  

[southsider2k5]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Because effectively signing Cano to a 5-year $120M deal when he is 36 years old is insane, just to acquire a frickin' reliever.  

That is the type of move that would completely kill any chance of the Sox signing a big FA when they're actually ready, and completely kill the rebuild if Cano fell off a cliff, which he very well may do in his ages 38-41 seasons.  

There is some level of $$ thrown in by Seattle that makes acquiring Cano at least worth entertaining / spit-balling about, but its at least $50M.  

If dollars are thrown in, the return for the Sox isn't Diaz or the Sox end up having to pay a high prospect price to do it, therefore neglecting the reason for doing the deal in the first place.

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

As good as Diaz is, the list of relievers that are dominant for more than a few seasons is depressingly small. 

I wouldn't even be opposed to figuring out a 3 way deal to move Diaz on to someone else for a prospect truck full.  The prices for closers are pretty insane right now.

[he gone.]

I completely realize Cano's age and the history of players at ages 37, 38, etc. however I would direct some of you to his baseball reference page -- I think you may be surprised. He hasn't show a real drop off yet. I think it's very realistic that you get 2 above replacement seasons out of him. Then maybe 2 replacement level seasons and then one season where it's a complete loss (which also be during a hopeful serious Sox run with $24mm of dead money on the books). But if you attached Diaz or Haniger for eating that whole contract?

 

That's my whole question. Seems like the board is pretty unanimously against it though. I'd be on the fence.. my biggest issues with a situation like this is:

 

a) $24mm in years 4/5 when we'll hopefully be in the thick of it

b) cano does indeed fall of the cliff in production right away.

[Eminor3rd]

18 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

What a world we live in - we're all so excited to jump down others throats! Yikes!

Maybe it wasn't phrased correctly, I was trying to say that if we were in the Mariners shoes where we were stuck at 78-84 wins per year (like we have been in the past) and it was time to make a move..... like the situation they are in........ and the WHITE SOX had a Cano like contract of 5 years and 120mm to a fictitious player that I personally would be willing to attach a Moncada or Lopez type guy to said contract to get that player off the balance sheet.

 

I say this as a White Sox fan -- not a Yankees or cubs or red sox fan. A contract like Cano's can really hinder a Mariners team. A white sox team. A royals team. a pirates team. Cleveland, etc. To be able to rid that long term liability would be absolutely huge for the Mariners and would allow their current GM to then have King Felix AND Cano off the books for next years free agency and put his own stamp on the club.  

Jumping down your throat? Come on man. 

[Jake]

The contract sucks but I do wonder if he could man the hot corner for a few years.

[he gone.]

52 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Jumping down your throat? Come on man. 

Just the way of the world on message boards I guess.. Everybody loves to argue a point and take sides. I'm more or less just throwing out ideas for discussions from boredom at work. Don't think it's insane to tie a good contract to a bad contract.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 hours ago, Jake said:

The contract sucks but I do wonder if he could man the hot corner for a few years.

not a chance if you want him to play more than 100 games.  His body can't really handle more than 50-75 games outside 1B/DH anymore.  As soon as 2020 he's a full time 1B/DH and that will kill his value.

If there's a move to be made here as a 3rd team to grease the wheels do it but nothing about Cano himself fits with what Chicago, at least ostensibly, is trying to do.

[fathom]

Btw, Cano might be the only one in baseball who hustles less than Machado.  Can’t imagine Ricky getting along well with him in terms of style of play.

[SCCWS]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If Cano brought us an elite long term closer, or some level of a mix of top prospects, why wouldn't you?  It is getting you talent that will be on your next playoff team.

 

To be clearer, the deal isn't about Cano.  Cano would be a means to get more young and cost controlled talent that will be here for the next playoff team.

They are pretty rare. There are elite closers but long term may be tough.  Diaz had a hell of a year but I would think he is a gamble being long term.  Kimbrel may be the closest to elite long term but even he was a little shaky down the stretch.  

[Dick Allen]

I really don’t know why a rebuilding team would trade stud young guys making nothing just to dump a contract. They would be better off just keeping them and eating money, or trading their youth for multiple prospects. I see no way they would trade on of these guys just to eat Cano’s money. It is a fantasy.

 

trade the prospects for a salary dump and sell rebuilding to your fan base. Yeah, right.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Dick Allen

[pcq]

Long contracts are just not smart it is fairly clear. Let the fans complain. 

[ChiSoxFanMike]

Edwin Diaz was taken in the 3rd round of the 2012 MLB Draft. The White Sox had 2 picks in that draft before Diaz was taken. You know who the Sox drafted? Courtney Hawkins and Chris Beck.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

 

[Eminor3rd]

5 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Just the way of the world on message boards I guess.. Everybody loves to argue a point and take sides. I'm more or less just throwing out ideas for discussions from boredom at work. Don't think it's insane to tie a good contract to a bad contract.

That's not the problem -- it's the net gain.

I would agree that Haniger is better than Moncada right now. But if you believe Moncada will improve, he's probably only a year behind him. That still makes Haniger better but, does it make him $100M albatross better? I think you're losing as much as you're gaining by giving up that coveted financial flexibility. If our young guys bust, it won't matter anyway -- we need to operate as if most of them will turn out useful.

[he gone.]

15 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

not a chance if you want him to play more than 100 games.  His body can't really handle more than 50-75 games outside 1B/DH anymore.  As soon as 2020 he's a full time 1B/DH and that will kill his value.

If there's a move to be made here as a 3rd team to grease the wheels do it but nothing about Cano himself fits with what Chicago, at least ostensibly, is trying to do.

I mean... I don't really get this stance.  He's played 150 or more games every year since he was 23 years old. This year he played 80 ... was suspended for 80. So he played in 80 of 82 games. He produced a .303 batting average. .374 on base percentage, doubled 22 times ... homered 10 times, and knocked in 50rbis. Just by simple doubling math - that'd be 44 doubles, 20 homers and 100rbis over a full season. In fact he's played 159 of 162 games in 8 of his last 12 seasons ( 156, 157, 150, 80 (PED) in other seasons) I think it's kind of foolish to think he can't play more than 75 games at DH anymore...

Of the 80 games played - he DH'ed 2 times and played 1B 14 times. The rest were at 2B and 2 games at 3B.

 

Based on his remarkably consistent career I think it's fair to assume he's more cut from the Adrian Beltre cloth than some of these other superstars. I think it's very reasonable to actually think he could play 2 more 3-4WAR seasons (has had one season in 2008 where he was under 3oWAR) where you get the $24mm worth of his contract at 3B (plus Haniger in my dream scenario by attaching a mid-level prospect). After that? I think 2 0 WAR seasons I think is acceptable in a Ben Zobrist role. Final season is a BATH. money down the toilet.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml

[southsider2k5]

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Cano still has a solid bat. The Mariners may as well just keep him if they're going to rebuild since their payroll would be low anyway. Would be better than dealing away top young players with him just to get rid of him. It would be the exact opposite of our ideas here of taking on bad contracts to acquire an interesting prospect.

[he gone.]

mlbtraderumors does attach haniger as a possibility to cano's contract as well. so let's just play for fun and say the sox decided this was the move ... kind of an Alex Rios move of sorts.. let's then put Haniger in CF (played 35 games in CF last year) and build out the defense. Let me preface this with he's a below average CF, but maybe he can man it for 1-2 years before shifting into LF/RF.\

Lineup for 2019 and 2020:

Cano- 3B

Haniger- CF

Bryce Harper - RF (follow along in dream scenario)

Abreu - 1b

Eloy - LF

Palka - DH

Moncada- 2b

Anderson - ss

 

You add on $65mm of payroll ($40mm for Harper for 5 years) and then opt out -- so front loaded, and then $24mm for Cano. You now have for the next 5 years -- Cano, Haniger, Harper, Eloy, Moncada, Anderson locked in. Shift Cano to DH when Abreu time is up, Harper to 1B, Haniger to RF and add Robert to CF 2 years from now. You shift the infield to include Madrigal 1.5 years from now & add him to the core.

 

Future lineup -- all locked in for 3 years.

Madrigal - 2b

Haniger - RF

Eloy - LF

Harper - 1B

Moncada - 3B

Robert - CF

Cano - DH

Anderson - SS

 

All you have to do is sign Harper (obviously BIG IF AND UNLIKELY) and take on Cano's contract.

[ChiSox59]

It is certainly intriguing BA, but I don't see the M's giving away their best trade chip to rid themselves of Cano. 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

It is certainly intriguing BA, but I don't see the M's giving away their best trade chip to rid themselves of Cano. 

Yes, I don't see it. It would be counterproductive. Might as well hang on to him and their top young guys, or just trade their young guys for max returns. Punting on good young players just to eat Cano's money will set them back years after they would have been done paying Cano anyway. They knew when they signed him the last 2 or 3 years were going to be painful in all probability. That's how these things work. It's a bonus when that doesn't happen. Just suck it up. 

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes, I don't see it. It would be counterproductive. Might as well hang on to him and their top young guys, or just trade their young guys for max returns. Punting on good young players just to eat Cano's money will set them back years after they would have been done paying Cano anyway. They knew when they signed him the last 2 or 3 years were going to be painful in all probability. That's how these things work. It's a bonus when that doesn't happen. Just suck it up. 

If they're as motivated as they sound, I could see them sending $10M per for 5 years along with Cano for a minimal return.  Prorating Cano's deal to ~$14M per makes it palatable in the short term anyway.  Then trade Haniger for a big return when someone blow you away - they don't need to trade him this offseason, he's controlled a long time.