southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: So let me get this straight - putting aside Donaldson - you’d prefer to roll the same team out as last year without any major additions because you see no benefit in winning more games? Even if those additions are short term deals that don’t hamper the future of the franchise? Just....keep sucking for another top pick? M The rebuild will never end. The entire first wave of guys will be expensive before the 2nd wave has arrived and makes a difference. This organization needs to progress - they’ve been terrible for too long and can afford to begin supplementing, even if the reinforcements don’t include two of the most expensive FA contracts ever signed. I really never wanted a rebuild, but here we are. Since we have gone down this road, we should do it the right way. Prematurely limiting the amount of cheap high end talent we bring into the system now will only serve to narrow the window of contention we will be able to sustain down the road. And why? What does winning 5 or 10 more games give them this year. Are you telling me that you are buying season tickets because of Josh Donaldson? That TV ratings will go up because people will be excited about Winning 78 games? It sure hasn't moved the needle over the last 15 years, why now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I really never wanted a rebuild, but here we are. Since we have gone down this road, we should do it the right way. Prematurely limiting the amount of cheap high end talent we bring into the system now will only serve to narrow the window of contention we will be able to sustain down the road. And why? What does winning 5 or 10 more games give them this year. Are you telling me that you are buying season tickets because of Josh Donaldson? That TV ratings will go up because people will be excited about Winning 78 games? It sure hasn't moved the needle over the last 15 years, why now? I don’t live in a Chicago and never have, so I won’t be buying season tickets. I’ve watched the majority of well over 125+ games per season since I was a kid, and I am now approaching 30. And I’d fucking love to watch .500 ball. I also realize I am not your average Sox fan. I don’t see how signing guys to try to make the team competitive halts anything. Our prospects are either here or a ways away. We can afford to get sign some stopgaps and try to progress. That doesn’t mean the Sox aren’t “doing it the right way”. The rebuild will be in a very bad spot if this team is picking top 5 in 2020. Edited November 27, 2018 by ChiSox59 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: I don’t live in a Chicago and never have, so I won’t be buying season tickets. I’ve watched the majority of well over 125+ games per season since I was a kid, and I am now approaching 30. And I’d fucking love to watch .500 ball. I also realize I am not your average Sox fan. I don’t see how signing guys to try to make the team competitive halts anything. Our prospects are either here or a ways away. We can afford to get sign some stopgaps and try to progress. That doesn’t mean the Sox aren’t “doing it the right way”. The rebuild will be in a very bad spot if this team is picking top 5 in 2020. It’s amazing to me that by mid April we’ll have six former top 40 prospects on our roster (three of which were top 10 guys at one point), yet people still act like all our talent is years away. Yes there are more guys coming, but a big chunk of the core is already here and we can’t just burn service time in the interim while we wait for reinforcements. We are at the point in the rebuild where we need to start trying to win some games. That doesn’t mean we should go all in and start trading prospects or signing risky free agents to long-term deals, but there are short-term moves that can be made that improve the on-field product and help take some pressure off our youngsters / teach them how to win. 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 41 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: I don’t live in a Chicago and never have, so I won’t be buying season tickets. I’ve watched the majority of well over 125+ games per season since I was a kid, and I am now approaching 30. And I’d fucking love to watch .500 ball. I also realize I am not your average Sox fan. I don’t see how signing guys to try to make the team competitive halts anything. Our prospects are either here or a ways away. We can afford to get sign some stopgaps and try to progress. That doesn’t mean the Sox aren’t “doing it the right way”. The rebuild will be in a very bad spot if this team is picking top 5 in 2020. There is nothing the Sox can do to make this team competitive in 2019. We are talking about it going from bad to mediocre. This is Kenny Williams type stuff that people used to throw temper tantrums about of adding people to teams which have no real chance to win in some attempt to convince the fans to stick around. This does nothing positive for the organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 22 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: It’s amazing to me that by mid April we’ll have six former top 40 prospects on our roster (three of which were top 10 guys at one point), yet people still act like all our talent is years away. Yes there are more guys coming, but a big chunk of the core is already here and we can’t just burn service time in the interim while we wait for reinforcements. We are at the point in the rebuild where we need to start trying to win some games. That doesn’t mean we should go all in and start trading prospects or signing risky free agents to long-term deals, but there are short-term moves that can be made that improve the on-field product and help take some pressure off our youngsters / teach them how to win. What does winning 5 extra games teach about winning? We aren't talking about a playoff team or even a competitive team. This is going to be a bad to mediocre team at best. What does winning 78 or 80 games teach that 73 does not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: What does winning 5 extra games teach about winning? We aren't talking about a playoff team or even a competitive team. This is going to be a bad to mediocre team at best. What does winning 78 or 80 games teach that 73 does not? Why does adding a whale and several other pieces only add 5 wins? There are multiple spots on this roster where even an average starter represents a significant upgrade. Why not plug those spots and try to have a roster in place that can be competitive if enough of the young guys take a leap forward in their development next year? People keep saying it’s impossible, yet I’ve listed three examples in the past two years of teams taking massive leaps in one year and making the post-season. Yes, it’s a long-shot, but I’d rather take my chances than to simply burn a year of service time of Moncada, Jimenez, Anderson, Rodon, Lopez, & Giolito in hopes of getting the 7th or 8th pick next year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 52 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: There is nothing the Sox can do to make this team competitive in 2019. We are talking about it going from bad to mediocre. This is Kenny Williams type stuff that people used to throw temper tantrums about of adding people to teams which have no real chance to win in some attempt to convince the fans to stick around. This does nothing positive for the organization. Well, that is just wrong. Maybe it isn't likely, but with Cleveland losing several key free agents and possibly moving a starter, the division isn't unreachable. If the Sox added Harper, Moustakas, a decent starter and a pen piece or two (and there are many available), they could certainly be competitive. Especially if some of the young guys develop or, gasp, take a leap forward. Again, maybe it isn't the most likely thing, but to say there is nothing they can do is overly dramatic for the sake of being overly dramatic. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Again I can only contribute to this discussion by posting what I was told via e-mail by a high ranking member of the front office namely the Sox have got to show "progress" next season either in the win column or by measurable improvement by the key rebuild pieces or the fan base is going to start turning on the rebuild and the pressure on the front office to make this thing work is going to be increased a lot. I'm not saying the Sox are going to be .500 or better (they aren't), nor am I saying they are going to be in the hunt for a playoff spot (they aren't) but if they lose 95-100 games again next season there are going to be serious and sober questions being asked by the fan base about the organization. For the reasons a previous poster brought up including a new TV deal after next year that has to be negotiated, future advertising revenue, future season ticket sales, and just having the fan base react in a positive manner overall the Sox need to win more games next year. Yes, 75 wins while still poor would show meaningful progress in my opinion. I hope that Hahn follows through on his public comments and starts assembling pieces that can supply some veteran leadership AND make meaningful contributions in two years when the Sox figure to be (or damn well better be) good again. It shouldn't be an either / or situation...if the Sox aren't good in 2019 (they won't be) then you trade all those guys at the deadline for whatever you can. You need to start building some quality and some depth. In my mind that starts with pitching, specifically the bullpen first which was absolutely atrocious last year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 7 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Again I can only contribute to this discussion by posting what I was told via e-mail by a high ranking member of the front office namely the Sox have got to show "progress" next season either in the win column or by measurable improvement by the key rebuild pieces or the fan base is going to start turning on the rebuild and the pressure on the front office to make this thing work is going to be increased a lot. I'm not saying the Sox are going to be .500 or better (they aren't), nor am I saying they are going to be in the hunt for a playoff spot (they aren't) but if they lose 95-100 games again next season there are going to be serious and sober questions being asked by the fan base about the organization. For the reasons a previous poster brought up including a new TV deal after next year that has to be negotiated, future advertising revenue, future season ticket sales, and just having the fan base react in a positive manner overall the Sox need to win more games next year. Yes, 75 wins while still poor would show meaningful progress in my opinion. I hope that Hahn follows through on his public comments and starts assembling pieces that can supply some veteran leadership AND make meaningful contributions in two years when the Sox figure to be (or damn well better be) good again. It shouldn't be an either / or situation...if the Sox aren't good in 2019 (they won't be) then you trade all those guys at the deadline for whatever you can. You need to start building some quality and some depth. In my mind that starts with pitching, specifically the bullpen first which was absolutely atrocious last year. There is a connection though to having a good rotation to take the pressure off the bullpen. But in a rebuild, you have to go with young pitchers who tend to be more 5 inning guys than 7 inning. Hopefully we see Rodon, Lopez and Gio pitch a little deeper into games so the pen can get some help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 If White Sox fans really didn't get this was going to be more than a two year process, they really need to read up on what a rebuild actually looks like. This was never going to be an overnight process, and was never sold as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 9 hours ago, turnin' two said: Well, that is just wrong. Maybe it isn't likely, but with Cleveland losing several key free agents and possibly moving a starter, the division isn't unreachable. If the Sox added Harper, Moustakas, a decent starter and a pen piece or two (and there are many available), they could certainly be competitive. Especially if some of the young guys develop or, gasp, take a leap forward. Again, maybe it isn't the most likely thing, but to say there is nothing they can do is overly dramatic for the sake of being overly dramatic. The Sox aren't making up 30- 40 games to turn this into a playoff team, no matter what they do this winter. That isn't being dramatic, that is being realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If White Sox fans really didn't get this was going to be more than a two year process, they really need to read up on what a rebuild actually looks like. This was never going to be an overnight process, and was never sold as such. Recently Hahn has sold it as such. There's the going outside the organization comments about pitching and the we can't pick and choose when free agents become available comments. Of course they also can't pick and choose who will accept our offers. There is no doubt in my mind that changes are coming to improve the team in order to make a statement and to make the new TV contract as good as possible. How much the team improves depends on what we spend on FA's. and meaningful improvements from young guys already on the team and Eloy. The only way we suck in as bad in 2019 as we did the last 2 years is if the FO strikes out . But if they do strikeout. it will be swinging not looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 I don't understand why some fans would resist improvement because it doesn't make the team an instant title contender. If you have no third basemen and two giant holes in the rotation and there are no prospects ready at those positions, whats the downside? The time to tank is over. As others have said, if you are going to wait for the team to become great organically, you'll rebuild forever. Over a quarter of the team next year will be long term pieces and they are burning service time. Smart additions are exactly what the team needs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If White Sox fans really didn't get this was going to be more than a two year process, they really need to read up on what a rebuild actually looks like. This was never going to be an overnight process, and was never sold as such. No one is suggesting this should be a two year process, but unlike other rebuilds we already have a big chunk of our talent up already. We can’t keep burning the service time of all these young guys in hopes of getting a better draft pick. At some point we need to start plugging holes and give our team a chance of being competitive if our young guys take some leaps forward. If our first wave of prospects doesn’t progress quite a bit over next two years, the money we spent on short-term stop-gaps will be the least of our problems and the reinforcements a year or two out won’t really matter in the grand scheme of things...the rebuild will likely be a bust at that point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 I have no idea why SS2k5 is so against the Sox spending money. Even if the Sox don't get Harper/Machado, I'd rather see them spend money on guys like Brantley and Moustakas and make the team somewhat competitive next year than do nothing and have a repeat of 2018. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: No one is suggesting this should be a two year process, but unlike other rebuilds we already have a big chunk of our talent up already. We can’t keep burning the service time of all these young guys in hopes of getting a better draft pick. At some point we need to start plugging holes and give our team a chance of being competitive if our young guys take some leaps forward. If our first wave of prospects doesn’t progress quite a bit over next two years, the money we spent on short-term stop-gaps will be the least of our problems and the reinforcements a year or two out won’t really matter in the grand scheme of things...the rebuild will likely be a bust at that point. That is exactly what people are saying when they start talking about adding talent to a team that is no where near winning to get them to win a few more games in an otherwise meaningless year. It is what they are talking about when they say they are sick of losing and would rather see a .500 season than another top draft pick. They might not be thinking it, but that is the effect result. Let's face it, the reason the Astros rebuild is still producing results is because they accumulated talent for a large number of years, instead of just two. They are still utilizing that talent to further things along today. The Cubs are still a playoff team for the same reason. That is why their windows are open. If we don't have talent coming in on the back end, we will end up like the Royals at best, where we have a dramatic rise, followed by a quick and dramatic fall. If this group fails is an even better reason to keep accumulating more talent, not less. The Kenny Williams era can start again when the team is ready to win. This team is not. Except for Machado and Harper, these same types of filler free agents will be there when we want to push an 85 win team to a low 90's win team. There shouldn't be any rush to artificially limit this teams future ceiling. When the team is actually ready to win, that will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Again I can only contribute to this discussion by posting what I was told via e-mail by a high ranking member of the front office namely the Sox have got to show "progress" next season either in the win column or by measurable improvement by the key rebuild pieces or the fan base is going to start turning on the rebuild and the pressure on the front office to make this thing work is going to be increased a lot. I'm not saying the Sox are going to be .500 or better (they aren't), nor am I saying they are going to be in the hunt for a playoff spot (they aren't) but if they lose 95-100 games again next season there are going to be serious and sober questions being asked by the fan base about the organization. For the reasons a previous poster brought up including a new TV deal after next year that has to be negotiated, future advertising revenue, future season ticket sales, and just having the fan base react in a positive manner overall the Sox need to win more games next year. Yes, 75 wins while still poor would show meaningful progress in my opinion. I hope that Hahn follows through on his public comments and starts assembling pieces that can supply some veteran leadership AND make meaningful contributions in two years when the Sox figure to be (or damn well better be) good again. It shouldn't be an either / or situation...if the Sox aren't good in 2019 (they won't be) then you trade all those guys at the deadline for whatever you can. You need to start building some quality and some depth. In my mind that starts with pitching, specifically the bullpen first which was absolutely atrocious last year. This is the assumption by the FO. They have no way of knowing if an "improved" team but is still under .500 will stop the fans from turning on them. personally don't think the fans will return until they are competitive. This information sounds more like JR is starting to get impatient and is putting pressure on the FO. Edited November 27, 2018 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: No one is suggesting this should be a two year process, but unlike other rebuilds we already have a big chunk of our talent up already. We can’t keep burning the service time of all these young guys in hopes of getting a better draft pick. At some point we need to start plugging holes and give our team a chance of being competitive if our young guys take some leaps forward. If our first wave of prospects doesn’t progress quite a bit over next two years, the money we spent on short-term stop-gaps will be the least of our problems and the reinforcements a year or two out won’t really matter in the grand scheme of things...the rebuild will likely be a bust at that point. No. We. Don't. Out of the guys we traded for - Giolito, Lopez, Moncada, and Eloy - they're up or will be soon, but a couple of those guys were rushed and at least some you worry about being genuine busts right now.And on top of that, everyone else from our big deals - Kopech, Cease, Dunning, Rutherford, Basabe, Robert, and literally every first round picks since 2015, none of them will be up by next year. When we did those moves, there's a thread somewhere about how we might have acquired too much pitching and not enough hitting. Dunning, Cease, and Kopech - they are not here yet and that was supposed to be the big thing we acquired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: No. We. Don't. Out of the guys we traded for - Giolito, Lopez, Moncada, and Eloy - they're up or will be soon, but a couple of those guys were rushed and at least some you worry about being genuine busts right now.And on top of that, everyone else from our big deals - Kopech, Cease, Dunning, Rutherford, Basabe, Robert, and literally every first round picks since 2015, none of them will be up by next year. When we did those moves, there's a thread somewhere about how we might have acquired too much pitching and not enough hitting. Dunning, Cease, and Kopech - they are not here yet and that was supposed to be the big thing we acquired. Our 25 man roster will have 6 former top 40 prospects on it by the end of April. We have four other guys in the entire system that are generally ranked in the top 50 at the moment. Yes, there are other guys that could be useful major league pieces, but if I’m burning Moncada & Jimenez’s service time for the Basabe’s & Rutherford’s of the world then we’re in a lot of trouble. The reality is a big chunk of the potential impact talent is already here. The time to start to supplementing that talent is now as long as we aren’t blocking guys long-term or committing big dollars to risky free agents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 38 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Our 25 man roster will have 6 former top 40 prospects on it by the end of April. We have four other guys in the entire system that are generally ranked in the top 50 at the moment. Yes, there are other guys that could be useful major league pieces, but if I’m burning Moncada & Jimenez’s service time for the Basabe’s & Rutherford’s of the world then we’re in a lot of trouble. The reality is a big chunk of the potential impact talent is already here. The time to start to supplementing that talent is now as long as we aren’t blocking guys long-term or committing big dollars to risky free agents. Amazing to me so many people (or at least the most vocal) are against this. There are ways to supplement the team without subtracting future pieces, and without blocking future pieces. I think the Sox are in our boat, but they're going to let the market dictate things which is OK with me. Wait and see which guys market tanks or other main suitors fill their roster elsewhere, and then pounce. Ultimately, I am OK with that as I don't really want the Sox setting the market on guys like Nelson Cruz, McCutchen, etc.. Things probably change if the Sox are somehow able to woo MM or Harper, though I am definitely not counting on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: The Sox aren't making up 30- 40 games to turn this into a playoff team, no matter what they do this winter. Yeah. The point is you will probably never make a jump that big. That is why there needs to be incremental improvements. There were 2 teams that made the playoffs this year that won fewer than 70 games in 2016, and another that won 90 last season and missed. And while maybe you can't make up 40 games in a year, there is ample evidence to show you can make up 20-25 games. Cleveland won 91 games last year. They stand poised to lose several important free agents. Rumors they are looking to trade one of their top starting pitchers. Who is to say that 85-87 wins won't win the Central next year? This offseason represents something of a unique opportunity. There are a few elite talents available on the FA market or through trade. The Sox have an opportunity not afforded to many rebuilding clubs. They can make a huge jump in talent without waiting for it to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, turnin' two said: Yeah. The point is you will probably never make a jump that big. That is why there needs to be incremental improvements. There were 2 teams that made the playoffs this year that won fewer than 70 games in 2016, and another that won 90 last season and missed. And while maybe you can't make up 40 games in a year, there is ample evidence to show you can make up 20-25 games. Cleveland won 91 games last year. They stand poised to lose several important free agents. Rumors they are looking to trade one of their top starting pitchers. Who is to say that 85-87 wins won't win the Central next year? This offseason represents something of a unique opportunity. There are a few elite talents available on the FA market or through trade. The Sox have an opportunity not afforded to many rebuilding clubs. They can make a huge jump in talent without waiting for it to develop. Elite talents signed long term matches our timeline. 1 year deals for 2nd tier players does not. Incremental improvements is exactly what we are working on here, and will see next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: Our 25 man roster will have 6 former top 40 prospects on it by the end of April. We have four other guys in the entire system that are generally ranked in the top 50 at the moment. Yes, there are other guys that could be useful major league pieces, but if I’m burning Moncada & Jimenez’s service time for the Basabe’s & Rutherford’s of the world then we’re in a lot of trouble. The reality is a big chunk of the potential impact talent is already here. The time to start to supplementing that talent is now as long as we aren’t blocking guys long-term or committing big dollars to risky free agents. Lopez, Giolito, Rodon, Moncada, Eloy. Who am I missing? Are you counting Abreu? Second point - out of that list, 4 of the guys I counted would register as "disappointments" to me, the only one who hasn't disappointed is the one who hasn't made the big leagues yet. This is a pretty rotten batch of impact talent so far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Elite talents signed long term matches our timeline. 1 year deals for 2nd tier players does not. Incremental improvements is exactly what we are working on here, and will see next year. Not on their own, no they certainly don't. But if the Sox can land a guy like Harper or Machado, Supplementing that signing with guys like Cruz, Moustakas, Allen and Herrera do make sense. You aren't sacrificing the future by doing that. What are you losing? Draft position? Ok that would be the case, though, the Sox have drafted in the top 10 4 out of the last 5 years and June 2019 will make 5 of 6. I think there is value in getting the young talents like Anderson, Moncada, Rodon and Lopez in to meaningful games into September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Lopez, Giolito, Rodon, Moncada, Eloy. Who am I missing? Are you counting Abreu? Second point - out of that list, 4 of the guys I counted would register as "disappointments" to me, the only one who hasn't disappointed is the one who hasn't made the big leagues yet. This is a pretty rotten batch of impact talent so far. You are disappointed by a 24 year old throwing 190 innings of a 3.91 ERA in his first full season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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