Nardiwashere Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Lopez, Giolito, Rodon, Moncada, Eloy. Who am I missing? Are you counting Abreu? Second point - out of that list, 4 of the guys I counted would register as "disappointments" to me, the only one who hasn't disappointed is the one who hasn't made the big leagues yet. This is a pretty rotten batch of impact talent so far. Anderson. The fact that prospects tend to disappoint in their first year or two seems like an argument for augmenting the roster with smart free agent signings as more prospects get promoted. Otherwise, by the time the next wave comes and settles in, the current wave will be on their way out or getting expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, turnin' two said: Not on their own, no they certainly don't. But if the Sox can land a guy like Harper or Machado, Supplementing that signing with guys like Cruz, Moustakas, Allen and Herrera do make sense. You aren't sacrificing the future by doing that. What are you losing? Draft position? Ok that would be the case, though, the Sox have drafted in the top 10 4 out of the last 5 years and June 2019 will make 5 of 6. I think there is value in getting the young talents like Anderson, Moncada, Rodon and Lopez in to meaningful games into September. If we land a whale, or a whale wants us to sign someone to get them, that is a different story. Realistically, we aren't going to be playing meaningful games in September until at least 2020, if not 2021. Sure, a miracle could happen and literally every single player could play up to their potential all at once, at the exact same time we add only the free agents who have career years next year, but what are the odds of this actually happening? Do you build your off-season around the most likely scenarios, or do you build it around a one in a thousand chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said: Anderson. The fact that prospects tend to disappoint in their first year or two seems like an argument for augmenting the roster with smart free agent signings as more prospects get promoted. Otherwise, by the time the next wave comes and settles in, the current wave will be on their way out or getting expensive. Anderson was never a top 40 prospect to anyone other than Baseball Prospectus. Choosing top 40 seems specifically designed to exclude him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: The time to start to supplementing that talent is now as long as we aren’t blocking guys long-term or committing big dollars to risky free agents. The one thing I hate about tanking/rebuilding is most fans don't think like you. They seem to enjoy the wait for the young kids and adding more top five draft picks, whereas I'd rather the team try to win our crappy division and not waste Eloy, Moncada, Timmy, Avi, Abreu, Davidson/Palka, and some of our pitchers who are ready to win now. Edited November 27, 2018 by greg775 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If we land a whale, or a whale wants us to sign someone to get them, that is a different story. Realistically, we aren't going to be playing meaningful games in September until at least 2020, if not 2021. Sure, a miracle could happen and literally every single player could play up to their potential all at once, at the exact same time we add only the free agents who have career years next year, but what are the odds of this actually happening? Do you build your off-season around the most likely scenarios, or do you build it around a one in a thousand chance? You plan your offseason on contingencies. The number 1 priority, should be (and seems to be) Harper and Machado. If you sign one of them, your offseason should proceed as you should at least be competitive next season. If you don't sign them, then you proceed differently and guys like Cruz make no sense. You shoot for the moon, and adjust your strategy if you miss. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, turnin' two said: You are disappointed by a 24 year old throwing 190 innings of a 3.91 ERA in his first full season? When his FIP was 4.63 and xFIP that full season was 5.22, yeah. He's the most likely candidate from that list to break out next year and actually be a decent big leaguer, but literally the only guy from that list who would have even played for a good team like the Astros last year before injuries would have been Eloy. Out of that list, a couple of those pitchers might have been good enough to be the Indians 5th starter and the infielders would have been backups, and we're counting on these guys to beat the Indians? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Nardiwashere said: I don't understand why some fans would resist improvement because it doesn't make the team an instant title contender. If you have no third basemen and two giant holes in the rotation and there are no prospects ready at those positions, whats the downside? The time to tank is over. As others have said, if you are going to wait for the team to become great organically, you'll rebuild forever. Over a quarter of the team next year will be long term pieces and they are burning service time. Smart additions are exactly what the team needs. 3 hours ago, Whitesox27 said: I have no idea why SS2k5 is so against the Sox spending money. Even if the Sox don't get Harper/Machado, I'd rather see them spend money on guys like Brantley and Moustakas and make the team somewhat competitive next year than do nothing and have a repeat of 2018. For about the thousandth time: No one is opposed to the White Sox spending money on talent. No one is opposed to the White Sox improving their roster. Please let those sentences sink in. Now, what some of us DON’T want is: Spending large amounts of what is a large but limited pool of money on improvements that will not make meaningful progress toward our chances at experiencing a World Series championship. In other words: This does not mean you cannot spend money to add. It does mean that if you’re going to spend money, make sure you’re adding to a potential championship. We do not want large on year players unless we think we can trade them. We do not want multi year mediocrities that have already peaked. There is a time to acquire these depreciating assets. That time is not now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Lopez, Giolito, Rodon, Moncada, Eloy. Who am I missing? Are you counting Abreu? Second point - out of that list, 4 of the guys I counted would register as "disappointments" to me, the only one who hasn't disappointed is the one who hasn't made the big leagues yet. This is a pretty rotten batch of impact talent so far. And if that talent turns out to be "rotten", we're fucked anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Anderson was never a top 40 prospect to anyone other than Baseball Prospectus. Choosing top 40 seems specifically designed to exclude him. He was 45 and 47 by BA and Pipeline. To draw that line so firmly seems to be missing the forest through the trees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, turnin' two said: You plan your offseason on contingencies. The number 1 priority, should be (and seems to be) Harper and Machado. If you sign one of them, your offseason should proceed as you should at least be competitive next season. If you don't sign them, then you proceed differently and guys like Cruz make no sense. You shoot for the moon, and adjust your strategy if you miss. They should shoot for a whale first, and if that doesn't work, keep to the original plan. Find a starter or two to fill the rotation. Find a reliever or two to round out the pen. Load up on MiLB deals, and see what happens with the talent you have next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, turnin' two said: You plan your offseason on contingencies. The number 1 priority, should be (and seems to be) Harper and Machado. If you sign one of them, your offseason should proceed as you should at least be competitive next season. If you don't sign them, then you proceed differently and guys like Cruz make no sense. You shoot for the moon, and adjust your strategy if you miss. They will not be competitive next season even if they land them...unless every single guy from the list of "top 40 prospects" has a breakout year. If they sign Harper or Machado, they will now be sitting there with a $90 million payroll and gaping holes in 2 of their rotation spots. At that point, they're still going to have to sign pitchers just to play the games, at which point if you want to sign Cruz and one other guy, you're talking about a $140 million payroll for a team that still looks sad compared to the indians. If this team signs Harper and then they're competitive next year, then Cooper, Renteria, and Steverson will truly deserve their jobs for life because that will be the greatest batch of coaching ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: For about the thousandth time: No one is opposed to the White Sox spending money on talent. No one is opposed to the White Sox improving their roster. Please let those sentences sink in. Now, what some of us DON’T want is: Spending large amounts of what is a large but limited pool of money on improvements that will not make meaningful progress toward our chances at experiencing a World Series championship. In other words: This does not mean you cannot spend money to add. It does mean that if you’re going to spend money, make sure you’re adding to a potential championship. We do not want large on year players unless we think we can trade them. We do not want multi year mediocrities that have already peaked. There is a time to acquire these depreciating assets. That time is not now This. Outside of a couple of filler pieces necessary for next year, the question should be will this player be a part of our next playoff team. If the answer is no, move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, turnin' two said: He was 45 and 47 by BA and Pipeline. To draw that line so firmly seems to be missing the forest through the trees. He literally said "Top 40". I did not use that phrase, he could have said "Top 50" and it would have been accurate, but he said "Top 40" which means I'm missing someone because saying "top 40" specifically excludes Anderson. Interestingly it does include Fulmer, who I don't expect to be on the big league roster next year, but hey that's 6! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: When his FIP was 4.63 and xFIP that full season was 5.22, yeah. He's the most likely candidate from that list to break out next year and actually be a decent big leaguer, but literally the only guy from that list who would have even played for a good team like the Astros last year before injuries would have been Eloy. Out of that list, a couple of those pitchers might have been good enough to be the Indians 5th starter and the infielders would have been backups, and we're counting on these guys to beat the Indians? Me thinks the Astros would be thrilled to have any of those guys, and they had a pretty stacked rotation, they would have found a spot for Rodon. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 On 11/27/2018 at 8:59 AM, ptatc said: This is the assumption by the FO. They have no way of knowing if an "improved" team but is still under .500 will stop the fans from turning on them. personally don't think the fans will return until they are competitive. This information sounds more like JR is starting to get impatient and is putting pressure on the FO. Certainly possible although Hahn has been quoted as saying he is still on-board with everything. If JR is getting impatient then he needs to open the checkbook big-time, raise the payroll to 130 million or so and sign every available guy who can contribute because that's the only way you can make that quick of a jump next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: When his FIP was 4.63 and xFIP that full season was 5.22, yeah. He's the most likely candidate from that list to break out next year and actually be a decent big leaguer, but literally the only guy from that list who would have even played for a good team like the Astros last year before injuries would have been Eloy. Out of that list, a couple of those pitchers might have been good enough to be the Indians 5th starter and the infielders would have been backups, and we're counting on these guys to beat the Indians? Hmm. Well good thing FIP and xFIP aren't teh actual results then. His K/9 and his BB/9 improved over the course of the season. Those numbers are what inflated his FIP and xFIP. I feel like this discussion was completely beat to death during the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, turnin' two said: He was 45 and 47 by BA and Pipeline. To draw that line so firmly seems to be missing the forest through the trees. He's good at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: They should shoot for a whale first, and if that doesn't work, keep to the original plan. Find a starter or two to fill the rotation. Find a reliever or two to round out the pen. Load up on MiLB deals, and see what happens with the talent you have next year. Isn't that basically what I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: For about the thousandth time: No one is opposed to the White Sox spending money on talent. No one is opposed to the White Sox improving their roster. Please let those sentences sink in. Now, what some of us DON’T want is: Spending large amounts of what is a large but limited pool of money on improvements that will not make meaningful progress toward our chances at experiencing a World Series championship. In other words: This does not mean you cannot spend money to add. It does mean that if you’re going to spend money, make sure you’re adding to a potential championship. We do not want large on year players unless we think we can trade them. We do not want multi year mediocrities that have already peaked. There is a time to acquire these depreciating assets. That time is not now So basically what you're saying is that the Sox shouldn't do anything as far as free agency goes if they miss out on Harper and Machado? Because if that's your point, I 100% disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Certainly possible although Hahn has been quoted as saying he is still on-board with everything. If JR is getting impatient then he needs to open the checkbook big-time, raise the payroll to 130 million or so and sign every available guy who can contribute because that's the only way you can make that quick of a jump next season. In another thread a guy asked whether I could make this team competitive with the Indians with a $150 million payroll. I got to about $160 and put together a roster that I thought had a shot, but I had to trade away Basabe, Rutherford, Walker, and a couple other guys to do it, and even then if Cleveland's bullpen didn't implode like it did in 2018 I thought they had a far better pitching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, turnin' two said: Isn't that basically what I said? I have zero interest in the 2nd and 3rd tier guys. It is either Harper/Machado, or another year like last year's off-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Me thinks the Astros would be thrilled to have any of those guys, and they had a pretty stacked rotation, they would have found a spot for Rodon. They would have eventually because McCullers got hurt...but there's a lesson here. On a good team right now, Carlos Rodon is a 4th or 5th starter with serious injury worries. For Carlos Rodon to be a key part of a good team...he has to have a major breakout season, and so far I haven't seen any sign that he's gotten any better over his 4 years in the big leagues. Right now he's a major disappointment compared to what we wanted out of that pick. That doesn't mean he can't break out this year, but he's another guy who needs to break out! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said: So basically what you're saying is that the Sox shouldn't do anything as far as free agency goes if they miss out on Harper and Machado? Because if that's your point, I 100% disagree. That is not what I said. I was very precise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tony said: Where should the Sox spend their money, if Harper and Machado don't happen? Give us some players, and contract details. What's wrong with guys like Brantley and Moustakas on 2 year deals? They might not be on the roster when the Sox are a World Series contender but they would make the team better in the short run and add veteran presences in the clubhouse. Edited November 27, 2018 by Whitesox27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: They would have eventually because McCullers got hurt...but there's a lesson here. On a good team right now, Carlos Rodon is a 4th or 5th starter with serious injury worries. For Carlos Rodon to be a key part of a good team...he has to have a major breakout season, and so far I haven't seen any sign that he's gotten any better over his 4 years in the big leagues. Right now he's a major disappointment compared to what we wanted out of that pick. That doesn't mean he can't break out this year, but he's another guy who needs to break out! I am not terribly concerned about Rodon. He was basically unhittable for 2 months during the season (July and August), sandwiched between understandable rust in June and fatigue in September. He is an injury concern, yes, but most pitchers are. If you're running out a healthy Rodon as your 4th or 5th starter, you're rotation is pretty amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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