Sox acquire Alex Colome For Narvaez

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, pcq said:

One of the young catchers maybe Zavala will be promoted. 

I would be quite disappointed in this franchise if they rushed one of these catchers up to the big leagues to be a backup before they were ready so that they could trade for a fairly expensive reliever.

[DirtySox]

9 minutes ago, pcq said:

One of the young catchers maybe Zavala will be promoted. 

Hahn already said this won't impact the timetable of Zavala or Collins. Rightfully so. Neither are ready.

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

Hahn already said this won't impact the timetable of Zavala or Collins. Rightfully so. Neither are ready.

He also said that if Zavala had been healthy when the catching mess happened last year he would have been a call up candidate. 

[Balta1701]

37 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

He also said that if Zavala had been healthy when the catching mess happened last year he would have been a call up candidate. 

Was that before Zavala was called up and struggled at Charlotte? Hopefully new information (.626 OPS at Charlotte) should cause a reassessment of that statement.

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Was that before Zavala was called up and struggled at Charlotte? Hopefully new information (.626 OPS at Charlotte) should cause a reassessment of that statement.

He had a wrist injury. Hopefully Sox don’t just rely on minor league stats without any additional scouting or context.

[bmags]

After a day or so sitting on this...I think I hate this trade. It feels very 2014-2016 Sox, who will trade off a cheap, controllable but flawed player and focus only in fixing the flaw by signing an expensive veteran who when they arrive end up worse than what they got rid of.

White Sox don’t need marginal upgrades. There should be no more “If Sox just get AVERAGE production from X position instead of negative that’s a big win” rationales anymore. Avg production should come from within .org.

judging by what Colome got from deadline, Is rather have traded off lower prospects, or let the bloated number of relief prospects from our forty man prove their spot. This rebuild has seen so much preference for relief pitching prospects, and we need to trade a cheap catcher who may be as good offensively as he showed for more?

Again, the good news is this was a cheap barometer to see if Hahn still is garbage at pro scouting.

[wrathofhahn]

46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Was that before Zavala was called up and struggled at Charlotte? Hopefully new information (.626 OPS at Charlotte) should cause a reassessment of that statement. 

He's 25 though. At some point you have to figure out what you have with these guys I don't want us to go external

Edited December 2, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

He's 25 though. At some point you have to figure out what you have with these guys I don't want us to go external

Well yeah but that's a catcher. Catchers you have to think about differently because of the huge amount of additional info they're learning at each step on how to deal with the pitching staff. We see a ton of catchers who come up at 25, 26, 27, and even then grow over 2-3 years before they become reliable receivers these days, because they're spending so much time working on all the defensive things, playcalling things, scouting reports, etc., and then have to still figure out how to do batting practice despite all that other stuff. Yan Gomes put up a .527 OPS during Cleveland's WS season, they tried to replace him with Lucroy, and then last year he was an all star at age 30. Keep the catchers in the minors until they have little more they can learn in the minors, and I would have no problem if I didn't see either of the in the big leagues until 2020.

[Two-Gun Pete]

6 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

He's awful though. Might as well have kept Kevan Smith if we're gonna sign someone like him

Agreed. IIRC, there NEVER was a roster crunch on the 40 man, and even if there was, Matt Davidson is/was readily replaced by Palka, and there are/were other members of the 40 man that could have been optioned first. One wonders if Kenny and Rick have the intellect to count to 40 or not.

Also, why spend time/money/effort to find a cromulent AAAA type, when you already had one? And at the same time, do we know if one is available at the same price Smith was on?

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Keep the catchers in the minors until they have little more they can learn in the minors, and I would have no problem if I didn't see either of the in the big leagues until 2020.

And this is where I am as well. Again, why create a hole in the depth chart, when none needed to be created? Why create a potential need for Zavala or Collins to be rushed? This is why I'm OK on either of the INDIVIDUAL moves of letting Smith go/selling high on Narvaez. But doing both, when the future at the position look to need more seasoning? It seems so "White Sox," and so shortsighted.

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And this is where I am as well. Again, why create a hole in the depth chart, when none needed to be created? Why create a potential need for Zavala or Collins to be rushed? This is why I'm OK on either of the INDIVIDUAL moves of letting Smith go/selling high on Narvaez. But doing both, when the future at the position look to need more seasoning? It seems so "White Sox," and so shortsighted.

more reason to believe that they've had their eyes on Grandal all along

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

more reason to believe that they've had their eyes on Grandal all along

If they hadn't bungled much of the developmental stage of this rebuild, and if this team looked to be closer to competing, I think I might be interested in Grandal.

But adding a 30 year old, 3.6 fWAR catcher who just declined a ~$17MM qualifying offer to a 100 loss team would be like adding truffle oil to turd soup.

Losing a draft pick to sign a guy who probably won't be good when the rest of the team will be good, and where there might be a good young player or two at his position is so "White Sox."

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

19 minutes ago, fathom said:

more reason to believe that they've had their eyes on Grandal all along

I think it's more likely that they add a backup catcher on the cheap via free agency to hold down the fort until one of Zavala/Collins is ready.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Whitesox27 said:

I think it's more likely that they add a backup catcher on the cheap via free agency to hold down the fort until one of Zavala/Collins is ready.

If they don't believe in Collins and Zavala, they might say that Grandal age 30-35 is the best they could do for their next competitive team. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, bmags said:

After a day or so sitting on this...I think I hate this trade. It feels very 2014-2016 Sox, who will trade off a cheap, controllable but flawed player and focus only in fixing the flaw by signing an expensive veteran who when they arrive end up worse than what they got rid of.

White Sox don’t need marginal upgrades. There should be no more “If Sox just get AVERAGE production from X position instead of negative that’s a big win” rationales anymore. Avg production should come from within .org.

judging by what Colome got from deadline, Is rather have traded off lower prospects, or let the bloated number of relief prospects from our forty man prove their spot. This rebuild has seen so much preference for relief pitching prospects, and we need to trade a cheap catcher who may be as good offensively as he showed for more?

Again, the good news is this was a cheap barometer to see if Hahn still is garbage at pro scouting.

I look at it from a different perspective. We had a roster full of 1st base/DH types. With a young pitching staff the key to our future success. we just cannot afford the luxury of a good hit  bad defensive catcher. Not just bad but nearly the worst, probably the worst when you take framing. passed balls and errors into consideration. He showed no signs of progress defensively. Offensively he did improve and he still may improve more and he was our only lower K, high OBP guys. The Narvaez, Davidson, Avi moves were a defensive purge. The end of  the clown show on defense.

Ultimately it's a trade that can end up looking bad numbers wise if Colome sucks but I think it was more of a statement trade than anything else.It was actually 2 moves in 1 to make not just the bullpen better but the whole pitching staff.

[tray]

  The Narvaez, Davidson, Avi moves were a defensive purge. The end of  the clown show on defense.

Hopefully, but that depends on who replaces them.

 

[bmags]

5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I look at it from a different perspective. We had a roster full of 1st base/DH types. With a young pitching staff the key to our future success. we just cannot afford the luxury of a good hit  bad defensive catcher. Not just bad but nearly the worst, probably the worst when you take framing. passed balls and errors into consideration. He showed no signs of progress defensively. Offensively he did improve and he still may improve more and he was our only lower K, high OBP guys. The Narvaez, Davidson, Avi moves were a defensive purge. The end of  the clown show on defense.

Ultimately it's a trade that can end up looking bad numbers wise if Colome sucks but I think it was more of a statement trade than anything else.It was actually 2 moves in 1 to make not just the bullpen better but the whole pitching staff.

I can see this and hope so. But if it ends up with Michael Brantley ...

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Is it his age and injuries that bother you about Brantley ? As a player I love the guy. Low K's ,decent OBP ,left handed , not a liability with the glove, can steal a base every now and then, decent pop,very familiar with our division. He gives quality at bats. This from MLB.com

"Brantley's contact abilities are well-documented. His career 91.2 percent contact rate on swings is seventh-highest among qualified hitters in that span, and his 4.8 percent whiff rate on pitches in the zone in 2018 was the lowest, by far, among qualified hitters. "

I know Harper is still the fish out there circling the bait and maybe that's why you don't like Brantley, If you had said Markakis I would have agreed,

[caulfield12]

Brantley is more the fear of Melky Cabrera, Part Deux.

Diesnt matter that they’re totally different players, it’s just the risk of going for a McCutcheon/Adam Jones/Markakis and being a year or two (or three) late and still paying them $14-18 million per season.

Whereas Pollock and Brantley have more upside (age-wise) but also elevated injury risk.

There’s no doubt we need to spread out the risk somewhat with players who are in that 2-4 fWAR category...obviously, selecting the right ones.

Taking a key contributor away from a main rival and adding to your own team certainly makes sense, though.

[Y2Jimmy0]

20 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Narvaez was under control through 2022...

I understand that. I don't think he was ever deemed part of the future though. He was a placeholder. 

[BlackSox13]

There's more to this trade than trading for a closer with two years of control. I think Hahn is betting he could get more for Colome next July than he would for Narvaez. Hahn was able to get something for Soria when most of the baseball world didn't think Soria was worth much. If the Sox can help Colome the way they helped Soria, we're going to like the trade package Colome brings back next July.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I understand that. I don't think he was ever deemed part of the future though. He was a placeholder. 

Of course, the irony of that is almost no one believes Collins can catch 120+ games and rank as the fifth best offensive catcher without being a bottom 10% ranked catcher defensively.

We shall see.

[GreenSox]

6 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

There's more to this trade than trading for a closer with two years of control. I think Hahn is betting he could get more for Colome next July than he would for Narvaez. Hahn was able to get something for Soria when most of the baseball world didn't think Soria was worth much. If the Sox can help Colome the way they helped Soria, we're going to like the trade package Colome brings back next July.

Will Colome be better than David Robertson?  For Robertson, the Sox got a player at the bottom of the top 100 plus Rule 5 throw-wins and that's with adding Kahnle (having a terrific year) and Frazier.
And then look at what Seattle had to trade to get him (and Spann).  Not that much.
 

Edited December 2, 2018 by GreenSox

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Will Colome be better than David Robertson?  For Robertson, the Sox got a player at the bottom of the top 100 players plus Rule 5 throw-wins and that's with adding Kahnle (having a terrific year) and Frazier.
And then look at what Seattle had to trade to get him (and Spann).  Not that much.
 

Don't forget thought that Robertson was paid roughly 2x as much as Colome and the price of relievers has continued to skyrocket since then. If his performance was "Robertson like" but he was cheaper, that wouldn't be worth a top 100 prospect, but it'd be worth something useful

[BlackSox13]

1 minute ago, GreenSox said:

Will Colome be better than David Robertson?  For Robertson, the Sox got a player at the bottom of the top 100 players plus Rule 5 throw-wins and that's with adding Kahnle (having a terrific year) and Frazier.
And then look at what Seattle had to trade to get him (and Spann).  Not that much.
 

My point is that I think Colome will be more valuable next July than Narvaez so the Sox are looking to flip Colome in July for more than they could get for Narvaez now. He won't be in Chicago for long.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

Will Colome be better than David Robertson?  For Robertson, the Sox got a player at the bottom of the top 100 plus Rule 5 throw-wins and that's with adding Kahnle (having a terrific year) and Frazier.
And then look at what Seattle had to trade to get him (and Spann).  Not that much.
 

Colome also wasn't on a full free agent contract.