Chicago White Sox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: How is Heyward past his prime? He’s 29 freaking years old. It’s not physical, it’s completely psychological with him. He’s had three straight bad seasons, hard to say it psychological at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Thome was also relatively cheap, even considering the era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 It's not going to happen anyway, but would Harper even make the Cubs better in this scenario? Getting rid of Heyward would be good for them, but they'd probably have to include at least 2 of Happ/Schwarber/Almora/Contreras and probably a pitching prospect like Alzolay as well to make it happen. Harper is obviously a stud, but they'd be creating more holes while filling one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 For both Harper and Machado: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Heyward never had a prime to begin with. 4.7, 1.9, 5.3, 3.1, 4.7, 5.6 If we got that “prime” out of Moncada, the entire board would be doing cartwheels. That was his age 21-26 seasons. That’s over 25 fWAR. I’m not sure all the White Sox position prospects from 2009-2018 have accomplished that collectively, if you take out Alexei and Abreu (since they never played in our minor league system). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said: It's not going to happen anyway, but would Harper even make the Cubs better in this scenario? Getting rid of Heyward would be good for them, but they'd probably have to include at least 2 of Happ/Schwarber/Almora/Contreras and probably a pitching prospect like Alzolay as well to make it happen. Harper is obviously a stud, but they'd be creating more holes while filling one. They can’t afford to sell low on Contreras, and they need him to return to form (desperately so) the next 3 seasons. That would be the deal breaker. If it was Happ, Russell and one outfielder, it would make more sense. But Russell is poison, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said: It's not going to happen anyway, but would Harper even make the Cubs better in this scenario? Getting rid of Heyward would be good for them, but they'd probably have to include at least 2 of Happ/Schwarber/Almora/Contreras and probably a pitching prospect like Alzolay as well to make it happen. Harper is obviously a stud, but they'd be creating more holes while filling one. I was thinking about the same thing. They don't really have much depth left, and packing a few guys to move Heyward would only make that worse. Kind of risky move if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: They can’t afford to sell low on Contreras, and they need him to return to form (desperately so) the next 3 seasons. That would be the deal breaker. If it was Happ, Russell and one outfielder, it would make more sense. But Russell is poison, now. Yeah, nobody is going to take Russell given all his baggage. So it'd probably be Happ and Almora along with Heyward, which would subtract their starting CF and a quality utility guy who is young, cheap, and provides decent production at a variety of positions. And that doesn't even include that fact that they would have to include one of their better prospects as well. It's just not worth it for them IMO but it's a moot point because it won't happen anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth05 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 #CubsTalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Just now, Whitesox27 said: Yeah, nobody is going to take Russell given all his baggage. So it'd probably be Happ and Almora along with Heyward, which would subtract their starting CF and a quality utility guy who is young, cheap, and provides decent production at a variety of positions. And that doesn't even include that fact that they would have to include one of their better prospects as well. It's just not worth it for them IMO but it's a moot point because it won't happen anyway. I’d need Schwarber or Contreras as a starting point along with Happ or Almora to take Heyward. The latter two are not good enough to be headliners in a trade $100M albatross. My question is how does that make the Cubs better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: 4.7, 1.9, 5.3, 3.1, 4.7, 5.6 If we got that “prime” out of Moncada, the entire board would be doing cartwheels. That was his age 21-26 seasons. That’s over 25 fWAR. I’m not sure all the White Sox position prospects from 2009-2018 have accomplished that collectively, if you take out Alexei and Abreu (since they never played in our minor league system). Completely triggered by defense from a corner outfielder, which we know to be bullshit. He had 2 seasons with an OPS over .800. His highest OPS ever was .849. Heyward's always been a complete fraud, which is why most of us laughed at his contract. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Sox send Nate Jones and Blake Rutherford to the Cubs in exchange for Heyward, Montgomery and $50 million (bringing Heywards salary to @$12M/yr.). Sox then sign Grandal (3/$45) and Jed Lowrie (3/$30) adding two SHrs. Lowrie can play 3rd or 2nd (push Moncada to 3rd). Good balance of LH/RH hitters. Net/net add of @$40M in annual payroll or little more than Harper alone would cost. Let the Cubs sign Harper. This team can compete now: 3B Moncada (SH) Rodon (LH) 2B Lowrie (SH) Lopez (RH) LF Jimenez Nova (RH) 1B (vs. LH) Abreu Giolito (RH) 1B (vs. RH) Alonso Montgomery (LH) C Grandal (SH)/Castillo (vs. LH) DH vs. RH Pelka/Alonso DH vs. LH Abreu/Castillo RF Heyward CF Engle SS Anderson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I’d need Schwarber or Contreras as a starting point along with Happ or Almora to take Heyward. The latter two are not good enough to be headliners in a trade $100M albatross. My question is how does that make the Cubs better? It doesn't. They'd be better off avoiding Harper completely and just signing Adam Ottavino and Kelvin Herrera to beef up their bullpen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth05 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Flash said: Sox send Nate Jones and Blake Rutherford to the Cubs in exchange for Heyward, Montgomery and $50 million (bringing Heywards salary to @$12M/yr.). Sox then sign Grandal (3/$45) and Jed Lowrie (3/$30) adding two SHrs. Lowrie can play 3rd or 2nd (push Moncada to 3rd). Good balance of LH/RH hitters. Net/net add of @$40M in annual payroll or little more than Harper alone would cost. Let the Cubs sign Harper. This team can compete now: 3B Moncada (SH) Rodon (LH) 2B Lowrie (SH) Lopez (RH) LF Jimenez Nova (RH) 1B (vs. LH) Abreu Giolito (RH) 1B (vs. RH) Alonso Montgomery (LH) C Grandal (SH)/Castillo (vs. LH) DH vs. RH Pelka/Alonso DH vs. LH Abreu/Castillo RF Heyward CF Engle SS Anderson Gross 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Flash said: Sox send Nate Jones and Blake Rutherford to the Cubs in exchange for Heyward, Montgomery and $50 million (bringing Heywards salary to @$12M/yr.). Sox then sign Grandal (3/$45) and Jed Lowrie (3/$30) adding two SHrs. Lowrie can play 3rd or 2nd (push Moncada to 3rd). Good balance of LH/RH hitters. Net/net add of @$40M in annual payroll or little more than Harper alone would cost. Let the Cubs sign Harper. This team can compete now: 3B Moncada (SH) Rodon (LH) 2B Lowrie (SH) Lopez (RH) LF Jimenez Nova (RH) 1B (vs. LH) Abreu Giolito (RH) 1B (vs. RH) Alonso Montgomery (LH) C Grandal (SH)/Castillo (vs. LH) DH vs. RH Pelka/Alonso DH vs. LH Abreu/Castillo RF Heyward CF Engle SS Anderson I would legit become a Brewers fan if that happens 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 (edited) Lowrie seems like one of those guys who would pick his season with the White Sox to pull a Keppinger or Bonifacio. He’s quietly been super productive, but how long can that last? Maybe we need a new thread, moves the Sox might make which would theoretically force us to throw in the towel on our fandom... Edited December 23, 2018 by caulfield12 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Flash said: Sox send Nate Jones and Blake Rutherford to the Cubs in exchange for Heyward, Montgomery and $50 million (bringing Heywards salary to @$12M/yr.). Sox then sign Grandal (3/$45) and Jed Lowrie (3/$30) adding two SHrs. Lowrie can play 3rd or 2nd (push Moncada to 3rd). Good balance of LH/RH hitters. Net/net add of @$40M in annual payroll or little more than Harper alone would cost. Let the Cubs sign Harper. This team can compete now: 3B Moncada (SH) Rodon (LH) 2B Lowrie (SH) Lopez (RH) LF Jimenez Nova (RH) 1B (vs. LH) Abreu Giolito (RH) 1B (vs. RH) Alonso Montgomery (LH) C Grandal (SH)/Castillo (vs. LH) DH vs. RH Pelka/Alonso DH vs. LH Abreu/Castillo RF Heyward CF Engle SS Anderson Lol...is that you Theo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Completely triggered by defense from a corner outfielder, which we know to be bullshit. He had 2 seasons with an OPS over .800. His highest OPS ever was .849. Heyward's always been a complete fraud, which is why most of us laughed at his contract. Then we got extremely fortunate the Nats bought into the “BS” about Adam Eaton. Or maybe not...seeing how bad Giolito has turned out so far. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, fathom said: I would legit become a Brewers fan if that happens I would stop watching White Sox baseball until Jerry dies and KW & Hahn were rightfully fired for such an atrocious trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 1 minute ago, caulfield12 said: Then we got extremely fortunate the Nats bought into the “BS” about Adam Eaton. Or maybe not...seeing how bad Giolito has turned out so far. What? What in the hell does Eaton have to do with anything? First, Eaton is a CF, which automatically makes him more valuable. Second, we didn't move Eaton for a HOF'er. Third, Eaton was making $2.7mm when we moved him. We traded him in a rebuild. I have no idea how that example has anything to do with the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: What? What in the hell does Eaton have to do with anything? First, Eaton is a CF, which automatically makes him more valuable. Second, we didn't move Eaton for a HOF'er. Third, Eaton was making $2.7mm when we moved him. We traded him in a rebuild. I have no idea how that example has anything to do with the discussion. Caulfield needs to pull a name from a hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Lol...is that you Theo? Guessing Theo would say no. That said, Heyward might be polarizing but at an avg. of $12M a yr., he's worth it. Sox would get a major upgrade at 3 positions plus a back-end starter with upside. Better bang for the buck than Harper without the risk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Flash said: Guessing Theo would say no. That said, Heyward might be polarizing but at an avg. of $12M a yr., he's worth it. Sox would get a major upgrade at 3 positions plus a back-end starter with upside. Better bang for the buck than Harper without the risk. I don’t think he is worth it. If you look exclusively at WAR then maaaaybe at that price. But his offense is terrible. What if you had 9 guys with good defense and decent WARs and all had .700 OPSs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 My favorite part about Heyward is he's the textbook example of why defensive WAR is garbage when actually evaluating whether you want a player, especially a corner OF. You can make the case for a SS, CF or C, but even then I'm skeptical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: My favorite part about Heyward is he's the textbook example of why defensive WAR is garbage when actually evaluating whether you want a player, especially a corner OF. You can make the case for a SS, CF or C, but even then I'm skeptical. Yet he’s a good fit for the Cubs where you have exceptional offense at other positions. Run prevention is something they’ve really excelled at thanks in large part to Heyward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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