chitown87 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 There's no way the Sox thought their offer of $175 would scare teams away, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, iamshack said: Lillian, Your posts have been A+ on this topic. @Lillian has consistently been one of the best posters on this site throughout the years. One of my favorite posters here. Edited February 21, 2019 by South Side Fireworks Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacock Wrestler Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, chitown87 said: There's no way the Sox thought their offer of $175 would scare teams away, right? I can't imagine them being that out of touch in this day and age, but I've been wrong before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuliusO1274 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: By mid-January the White Sox have a 7/$175 offer on the table to Machado and they've added 3 vesting options that could bring the value to $250, but they don't understand how those vesting options are viewed or how low that dollar amount is. They think that is a huge dollar amount, so they leak their offer to Bruce Levine thinking that it's so big it will scare away the competition, and Bruce doesn't get all the details but he also hears that the amount could go up to $250, so he's on the radio giving that classic interview about how the contract could be worth more. Some of this may be accurate but the White Sox surely did not think 175 million would scare any team away. Edited February 21, 2019 by JuliusO1274 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 That's 100% what happened or why there was even thought they would get both. We were all saying they would have to pay about $650 mill to land both which looks pretty accurate. They thought they were going to get both on below value deals. Very sad honestly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: That's 100% what happened or why there was even thought they would get both. We were all saying they would have to pay about $650 mill to land both which looks pretty accurate. They thought they were going to get both on below value deals. Very sad honestly. It is remarkable that despite all of the insider information in the world, this message board accurately predicted the deal that machado would sign 2 years ago, while the sox own valuation system confused them that they were clear players for him while hamstringing themselves with a deal 50 mill less. 2 years to prepare and hemm and haww at how serious they were. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Harper2Sox said: It’s funny how one big signing could completely turn around the fan approval rating for the front office and ownership. But it won’t be pretty for Hahn, Kenny, and JR, once Harper signs with the Phillies. The lack of one did exactly that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 31 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: All allegedly known facts go against sox signing harper. 1) Machado allegedly Sox #1 target 2) Sox not willing to offer 10 years 300mil. 3) Harper has allegedly turned down a more lucrative offer than that. So now im supposed to believe that the sox are going to pay more money for their 2nd choice when they could have just signed their first choice? That makes 0 sense. But i guess that is the reason it may happen. Its illogical, so therefore its the White Sox way. Ive been here a decade, im a pretty positive person. But if i was betting greg's house, id bet against the Sox getting Harper. Badger, your reaction is perfectly reasonable. And I can’t tell you it is for sure totally inaccurate. And I’ll be honest, the scenario I laid out in the last piece I shared...it’s what I’ve put together based on all kinds of conversations I’ve had. But I don’t think there’s any way for me to truly know what their intentions were/are unless they tell us after the fact. Only our FO truly know all their intentions and plans. But if you did subscribe to the line of thinking I did lay out, nothing has happened as of yet to really prove any of it is wrong. In fact, the fact that the Sox didn’t do what it took to sign Manny points a lot more to that scenario being correct than to it being incorrect. If Harper signs a very reasonable offer with another team, I’ll admit I was likely wrong. And I don’t mind that. I don’t really care. I just want Harper now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, bmags said: It is remarkable that despite all of the insider information in the world, this message board accurately predicted the deal that machado would sign 2 years ago, while the sox own valuation system confused them that they were clear players for him while hamstringing themselves with a deal 50 mill less. 2 years to prepare and hemm and haww at how serious they were. The 10/$300 mill prediction was even on the lower end of what everyone thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: That's 100% what happened or why there was even thought they would get both. We were all saying they would have to pay about $650 mill to land both which looks pretty accurate. They thought they were going to get both on below value deals. Very sad honestly. And there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have landed both. They certainly could have afforded to invest $650M over the next 10 years for two potential HOF talents both just entering their primes. And they should have been willing to give both a 4 or 5 year opt out too. This organization is completely incompetent. Edited February 21, 2019 by South Side Fireworks Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: The lack of one did exactly that. Yep, and Hahn is the only one to blame for that. He hyped up the possibility of landing one since flirting with trading for Machado last offseason. Edited February 21, 2019 by Harper2Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: https://www.sportingnews.com/au/mlb/news/tim-anderson-manny-machado-might-have-missed-the-boat-by-signing-with-padres-over-white-sox/u9xrqw96v9fa1aad4aqiwh6oi Tim Anderson showing the expected leadership and cockiness we’ve come to expect... Anderson was asked if four-time All-Star Machado "missed the boat" by signing with San Diego over Chicago. Th 25-year-old told reporters: "He might have. But we're going to keep rolling. "You know, you can ride with us or don't. ... We couldn't care less who's on the boat with us. We know who all is on the boat with us and we know which way we're going to sail." I am not quite sure why everyone is so pissy with Anderson. This is EXACTLY what I want to see from players on my team. I would really be worried if they were out there thinking that they needed someone to come rescue them. I get why fans are pissy about this situation, but expecting members of the organization to be feeling sorry for themselves, mad, pouting, or whatever people are looking for would be a worst case scenario. I want my young and potential future star players to feel like they can do it themselves, and don't need Manny, Bryce or anyone else to save them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: So I've been churning all this over to try to make a story as I like telling stories and I think there is one to tell here. Let's start with 1 given point; that the White Sox's player evaluations are totally, completely, broken. Let's go from there. The White Sox put together their budgets and put Machado at $175 and Harper at $225. They realize they can afford both of them at those values. In December they meet with Boras and put an offer similar to that on the table, they meet with Machado in late December and put that offer on the table. Boras doesn't give much of a response but they hear out the White Sox's presentation. Machado's side starts negotiating. They bring in the "Much more experienced" negotiator at some point, and sometime in January they start adding vesting options. By mid-January the White Sox have a 7/$175 offer on the table to Machado and they've added 3 vesting options that could bring the value to $250, but they don't understand how those vesting options are viewed or how low that dollar amount is. They think that is a huge dollar amount, so they leak their offer to Bruce Levine thinking that it's so big it will scare away the competition, and Bruce doesn't get all the details but he also hears that the amount could go up to $250, so he's on the radio giving that classic interview about how the contract could be worth more. The White Sox think the $175 million offer will scare teams away, instead suddenly teams realize that this isn't going to go well over $300 million and they start sniffing around. Other offers start appearing, so Lozano's side goes to the White Sox and says they're going to have to guarantee that money just to get into the conversation. The White Sox gradually increase their guarantee, including right before Soxfest where they think they've done what Lozano asked and they think they're going to get it wrapped up at $200 million or so. Lozano still understands that's no where close to the final total, but every time the White Sox up their offer they think they're doing Machado a favor and bidding against themselves. Meanwhile, the White Sox keep leaking that they think they have a shot at both of them because they could do both for $225 million deals, but Scott Boras has stopped taking their calls because they're so far out of the race they're not worth hearing from, so they haven't talked in weeks. Over the last few weeks the Padres get more serious, realize that this isn't going to break their bank, their GM works with ownership to get ownership on board, and they come in with a strong $280 million guarantee last week. The White Sox up their bid to $250 million guaranteed. They think "They've done everything Lozano asked them to do" because that was something he asked them to do in January - Rick Hahn's words. When the $280 million offer comes through, the White Sox go ahead and add in 2 vesting options that they are convinced are valuable to the player, failing to understand how weak those are from the player's side. When Lozano comes around and says "I'll sign at $300", the White Sox don't even think it's worth talking about because they're convinced they've been bidding against themselves. That pushes the Phillies out, the Padres say yes, and he's a Padre. Meanwhile, everything the insiders heard was true - that the White Sox had a budget for Harper and Machado, that Machado's budget was less, and that they didn't want Machado's money to get into the Harper range, but they thought they were doing Machado a favor by going into that range. Meanwhile, they don't realize nearly how far away they are, and when other teams realize they're scooping up good deals, the White Sox go into "We've got to pay for the rest of our roster" excuse mode. So, we still hear some of the "They have a budget for Harper that was higher than Machado" stuff, but that's because they never realized that the budgets they had for both of them were laughably low. They thought that a $175 million offer would scare teams away, but it did the exact opposite, and they thought they were bidding against themselves as they went through their own ceiling to put that $250 million offer on the table for Machado. I don't know if it's right, but that's basically every single leak this offseason fit into one tidy picture. Ugh, it most certainly is not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 We've literally written him into our fantasy lineups the last 2 years basically. But that's all it turned out to be: a fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: The lack of one did exactly that. I think as I look back, the reason this hurts so much is because I thought it would help overcome the cracks in the armor that I started to freak about in september. I was not that worried about pd and drafting, but when I looked through it at end of august, I started to notice the huge dropoff after our core set of prospects, and the attrition already setting them. This made it easier, and so when it was gone it really shines a spotlight on how the f.o. did far less to revamp their system than they assured fans they were doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 At least they didn't trade good prospects for Manny last year thinking playing for Ricky R for a year could mean another $50 million home town discount. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, iamshack said: Badger, your reaction is perfectly reasonable. And I can’t tell you it is for sure totally inaccurate. And I’ll be honest, the scenario I laid out in the last piece I shared...it’s what I’ve put together based on all kinds of conversations I’ve had. But I don’t think there’s any way for me to truly know what their intentions were/are unless they tell us after the fact. Only our FO truly know all their intentions and plans. But if you did subscribe to the line of thinking I did lay out, nothing has happened as of yet to really prove any of it is wrong. In fact, the fact that the Sox didn’t do what it took to sign Manny points a lot more to that scenario being correct than to it being incorrect. If Harper signs a very reasonable offer with another team, I’ll admit I was likely wrong. And I don’t mind that. I don’t really care. I just want Harper now. The interesting thing is that both guys were/are worth the money to the Sox for different reasons. Machado would have been a bit cheaper but fills the 3B hole and may be more valuable long-term due to his defense. Harper still brings a lot of statistical value to the Sox in another hole (RF) but what his star power and brand could bring to the Sox, along with Eloy, would pay for itself. I don’t get what the Sox are thinking if they aren’t willing to give Harper $350 guaranteed. The Sox ownership and front office would go from loathed to loved with one big signing and the fact that Harper is talking to Philly when he supposedly hates it there shows that he just wants the most money like every other free agent. Pay the man his money and he can hang out with his buddy Kris Bryant on off days. And the fans will come to see him and Eloy and buy a lot of merchandise. Edited February 21, 2019 by Harper2Sox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Dick Allen said: At least they didn't trade good prospects for Manny last year thinking playing for Ricky R for a year could mean another $50 million home town discount. Jesus that's the only way this whole thing could have been worse. Trade anything for a year of him and then he signs with Padres in free agency lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, chitown87 said: There's no way the Sox thought their offer of $175 would scare teams away, right? 5 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said: Some of this may be accurate but the White Sox surely did not think 175 million would scare any team away. Well, it's pretty clear at this point that was close to a real offer based on everything we've heard in the last 2 days. Ask yourself about the motivation of it. Lozano would benefit from leaking that offer because it could draw in other interest, but it's a risky strategy as maybe it convinces the Phillies not to go above $200. That said though... Lozano then put out that angry statement alleging it was a collective bargaining agreement violation. If Lozano's side leaked that offer and then put out that statement....and it ever got out that he leaked that offer, even in private, that's a huge risk. He set up something there that the whole Union might look into at some point in the future. The union will probably ask him questions about that leak while preparing for the next CBA. That's a huge potential cost to pay to draw in other offers - that could destroy his relationship with the union permanently. So either Lozano took a HUGE risk, one that might still backfire in the future, or the leak came from the White Sox's side. Who seemed to have a fairly decent account of it? Bruce Levine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, iamshack said: Ugh, it most certainly is not. Then tell us exactly what did happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticky Stuff Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, South Side Fireworks Man said: Then tell us exactly what did happen. No shit! Everyone’s opinion to him is wrong and he tells them they are. Unless he was at the damn table what his opinion is no more reliable than anybody else’s opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I will say if the Sox did sign Harper, there would never be a more fitting use of the Dumb and Dumber “completely redeem yourself” gif 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, fathom said: I will say if the Sox did sign Harper, there would never be a more fitting use of the Dumb and Dumber “completely redeem yourself” gif Well, let's hope we can bust it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skooch Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The White Sox put together their budgets and put Machado at $175 and Harper at $225. They realize they can afford both of them at those values. Over how many years? Presumably the eight that they guaranteed. That's less than $22MM per year for MM. Meanwhile, Jose Abreu, the 32 yo (officially), non-premium-position-playing, defensive butcher just got 16MM in arbitration. If what you suggest is accurate then we've skipped right past incompetent to delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, skooch said: Over how many years? Presumably the eight that they guaranteed. That's less than $22MM per year for MM. Meanwhile, Jose Abreu, the 32 yo (officially), non-premium-position-playing, defensive butcher just got 16MM in arbitration. If what you suggest is accurate then we've skipped right past incompetent to delusional. The version from Bruce and Olney was 7/$175, with Bruce going on about extra ways to make it worth more on the radio that could be consistent with some version of the vesting options we heard about at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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