whitesoxwinner Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: Why? He got 10 years and $300 million from San Diego. We were all incorrect about Manny's reluctance to play there. He obviously does. The agent wanted to say he signed the biggest FA deal ever and they did. We shouldn't assume anymore that Manny would have rather played in Chicago than San Diego. That doesn't appear to be true regardless of how bad the Sox fucked up the negotiation. I agree 100%. But I'm not saying they should have had a chance to MATCH but im saying they should have had a chance to BEAT from lazano. How would you not give your most serious suitor throughout the offseason a chance to make more money for your client? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, iamshack said: No one said that, that I’m aware of. And secondly, I told you if the bidding reached a certain point they may refocus. This is exactly what you have said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, whitesoxwinner said: I agree 100%. But I'm not saying they should have had a chance to MATCH but im saying they should have had a chance to BEAT from lazano. How would you not give your most serious suitor throughout the offseason a chance to make more money for your client? Perhaps, as I've been speculating, Lozano was making a take-it-or-leave-it offer and somebody took it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, fathom said: they may refocus Sign Bryce and Marwin and we're talking about a great offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryzner Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Jake said: Perhaps, as I've been speculating, Lozano was making a take-it-or-leave-it offer and somebody took it. If you don't take it, you ain't gettin' it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, iamshack said: No one said that, that I’m aware of. And secondly, I told you if the bidding reached a certain point they may refocus. Considering what was expected for Machado (exactly what he signed for) no swellopts...if that was beyond their means, which KW certainly indicated, the confidence expressed, even to the point of admonishing other posters who were pessimistic, was ill advised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Bryce isn't happening. I don't think we can outbid the Phillies. I also don't think he wants to come here unless we beat the next highest offer by a substantial amount. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greek-konerko Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, iamshack said: No one said that, that I’m aware of. And secondly, I told you if the bidding reached a certain point they may refocus. So let me get this right. Are sox in on bryce harper? Or we should move on? And if phillies is the only team left on bryce why phillies havent signed him yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooseman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, chw42 said: Bryce isn't happening. I don't think we can outbid the Phillies. I also don't think he wants to come here unless we beat the next highest offer by a substantial amount. We can, Jerry just won't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Tony said: Be careful with that phrasing. The Sox can ABSOLUTELY outbid the Phillies. They are choosing not to. Keep in mind the Phillies FO. They are very analytical. They stated the reported offer on Manny was higher than their valuations. “Sometimes you have to be willing to walk away.” It remains to be seen how much they may deviate from their internal valuations now that Machado is off the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, iamshack said: No one said that, that I’m aware of. And secondly, I told you if the bidding reached a certain point they may refocus. Its impossible to back and see what exactly people said. But Machado signed for $300mil. Over a month ago I was saying it likely would take a Sox offer of 8 years $282. 10 years $300mil is actually a better deal for the Sox. None of the insiders were expressing concerns that number was to high. Everyone was saying how optimistic etc. I just dont understand how you can be optimistic if you know the Sox arent willing to go 10 years $300mil? Ultimately I would have to see the information people were given. But my no sauces guess is that it was just general puffery from the Sox about their chances. Which really is no inside information at all. Edited February 21, 2019 by Soxbadger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Vision Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: So I've been churning all this over to try to make a story as I like telling stories and I think there is one to tell here. Let's start with 1 given point; that the White Sox's player evaluations are totally, completely, broken. Let's go from there. The White Sox put together their budgets and put Machado at $175 and Harper at $225. They realize they can afford both of them at those values. In December they meet with Boras and put an offer similar to that on the table, they meet with Machado in late December and put that offer on the table. Boras doesn't give much of a response but they hear out the White Sox's presentation. Machado's side starts negotiating. They bring in the "Much more experienced" negotiator at some point, and sometime in January they start adding vesting options. By mid-January the White Sox have a 7/$175 offer on the table to Machado and they've added 3 vesting options that could bring the value to $250, but they don't understand how those vesting options are viewed or how low that dollar amount is. They think that is a huge dollar amount, so they leak their offer to Bruce Levine thinking that it's so big it will scare away the competition, and Bruce doesn't get all the details but he also hears that the amount could go up to $250, so he's on the radio giving that classic interview about how the contract could be worth more. The White Sox think the $175 million offer will scare teams away, instead suddenly teams realize that this isn't going to go well over $300 million and they start sniffing around. Other offers start appearing, so Lozano's side goes to the White Sox and says they're going to have to guarantee that money just to get into the conversation. The White Sox gradually increase their guarantee, including right before Soxfest where they think they've done what Lozano asked and they think they're going to get it wrapped up at $200 million or so. Lozano still understands that's no where close to the final total, but every time the White Sox up their offer they think they're doing Machado a favor and bidding against themselves. Meanwhile, the White Sox keep leaking that they think they have a shot at both of them because they could do both for $225 million deals, but Scott Boras has stopped taking their calls because they're so far out of the race they're not worth hearing from, so they haven't talked in weeks. Over the last few weeks the Padres get more serious, realize that this isn't going to break their bank, their GM works with ownership to get ownership on board, and they come in with a strong $280 million guarantee last week. The White Sox up their bid to $250 million guaranteed. They think "They've done everything Lozano asked them to do" because that was something he asked them to do in January - Rick Hahn's words. When the $280 million offer comes through, the White Sox go ahead and add in 2 vesting options that they are convinced are valuable to the player, failing to understand how weak those are from the player's side. When Lozano comes around and says "I'll sign at $300", the White Sox don't even think it's worth talking about because they're convinced they've been bidding against themselves. That pushes the Phillies out, the Padres say yes, and he's a Padre. Meanwhile, everything the insiders heard was true - that the White Sox had a budget for Harper and Machado, that Machado's budget was less, and that they didn't want Machado's money to get into the Harper range, but they thought they were doing Machado a favor by going into that range. Meanwhile, they don't realize nearly how far away they are, and when other teams realize they're scooping up good deals, the White Sox go into "We've got to pay for the rest of our roster" excuse mode. So, we still hear some of the "They have a budget for Harper that was higher than Machado" stuff, but that's because they never realized that the budgets they had for both of them were laughably low. They thought that a $175 million offer would scare teams away, but it did the exact opposite, and they thought they were bidding against themselves as they went through their own ceiling to put that $250 million offer on the table for Machado. I don't know if it's right, but that's basically every single leak this offseason fit into one tidy picture. To believe this is to believe that the Sox thought the Nationals $300 million offer, and Harper's decline of it, was a complete fabrication. I wholeheartedly think that the Sox mishandled the negotiations with Lozano, but I very highly doubt they ever thought they could get Machado or Harper for the prices you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, iamshack said: Keep in mind the Phillies FO. They are very analytical. They stated the reported offer on Manny was higher than their valuations. “Sometimes you have to be willing to walk away.” It remains to be seen how much they may deviate from their internal valuations now that Machado is off the board. An analytical FO will also understand that Harper is the difference between a shot at the playoffs this year and a strong likelihood of missing them with their current roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: An analytical FO will also understand that Harper is the difference between a shot at the playoffs this year and a strong likelihood of missing them with their current roster. Were back to maybe the Sox can get a $1 for .50. Thats exactly how they lost Machado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Thank you to shack for providing clarification. I can't help but think when this is described that it sounds like Ned Stark going to king's landing. Sox have a lot of opinions on the way things ought to work. And by sox I think this ladders up to Jerry. And when other teams don't operate that way he gets mad, and years later it seems like it becomes an owner request in the next CBA so that the league behaves more like jerry should. But the way the sox ought to think it should work and the way it does work is often at odds and it puts them at a disadvantage when going for the big splashes like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Its impossible to back and see what exactly people said. But Machado signed for $300mil. Over a month ago I was saying it likely would take a Sox offer of 8 years $282. 10 years $300mil is actually a better deal for the Sox. None of the insiders were expressing concerns that number was to high. Everyone was saying how optimistic etc. I just dont understand how you can be optimistic if you know the Sox arent willing to go 10 years $300mil? Ultimately I would have to see the information people were given. But my no sauces guess is that it was just general puffery from the Sox about their chances. Which really is no inside information at all. Let’s be clear, I had no sense of exactly where the Sox limits were or were not. If anyone tells you they have that information, they are very likely lying, or you are hearing that, in person, from the folks making those very decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, bmags said: Thank you to shack for providing clarification. I can't help but think when this is described that it sounds like Ned Stark going to king's landing. Sox have a lot of opinions on the way things ought to work. And by sox I think this ladders up to Jerry. And when other teams don't operate that way he gets mad, and years later it seems like it becomes an owner request in the next CBA so that the league behaves more like jerry should. But the way the sox ought to think it should work and the way it does work is often at odds and it puts them at a disadvantage when going for the big splashes like this. Always seemed like the Sox were playing not to lose instead of putting on full court press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Vision Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Lillian said: Regardless of what Hahn might say, it seems very implausible that they would not attempt to sign their other major targeted acquisition. The market seems to be favoring the buyers and with the Phillies now being about the only other team in the Harper sweepstakes, why wouldn't they? I can't imagine that they anticipated such a lack of suitors and if they originally were determined to try to get both, what justification would they now have for passing on the one remaining? It just wouldn't make any sense. That said, as patient as I have been, I too will lose all confidence in this organization if they do not make a concerted effort to sign Harper. If they had never espoused an interest in these two young free agents, I could accept that, but after all of that bluster and bravado, it would just be completely inexcusable. Fortunately, that very odd rationale, which Hahn provided, regarding no longer being in on the Harper negotiations, because they don't want to drive up the cost for the Phillies, suggests to me that he was not being forthright. The only way I can explain that comment is to attribute it to an attempt to conceal their true intentions. Otherwise, it would have to be considered one of the dumbest comments that Hahn has ever made. Why in the world would they want the Phillies to get Harper, at a better price? And finally, as we all know, delivering on Harper is now more important for retaining the fan base, than it was when all of this started. At this point, what Hahn, the twitter posters, or any of us care to postulate, or speculate, is less meaningful than the simple logic. One can only imagine how much pressure there is to get a deal done for Harper. Wouldn't you love to be privy to the internal communications of this front office? It's probably more interesting now, than it has been, at any point in the off season. It probably looks more like a war room, assessing damage control, after a major attack. This is a very good post, but I'm afraid you're making assumptions of reasonableness and logic at a time where none exists. I tend to think that the Sox were only ever willing to sign one of these guys, were overconfident that they were going to get Machado, were shell-shocked when they lost out on Machado, and are in such a state of defeat and self-doubt right now that they simply don't have the intestinal fortitude to go through that again with Harper. Hahn's statement of not wanting to drive up the price on the Phillies is completely nonsensical, but I don't think there's any hidden agenda. He's just not in a good place mentally and can't think of anything reasonable to say about why they aren't pursuing Harper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, fathom said: Always seemed like the Sox were playing not to lose instead of putting on full court press. Their version of a "Full court press" isn't to put the best deal out there, their version of a full court press is the presentation to Harper, it's bringing in Manny's party buddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxwinner Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: An analytical FO will also understand that Harper is the difference between a shot at the playoffs this year and a strong likelihood of missing them with their current roster. especially after trading prospects for JT Realmuto. Harper wants to be on a winner, and we aren't and the Phillies are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, whitesoxwinner said: especially after trading prospects for JT Realmuto. Harper wants to be on a winner, and we aren't and the Phillies are. Haven't we learned enough that in baseball this other stuff doesn't matter unless the money is equal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: Their version of a "Full court press" isn't to put the best deal out there, their version of a full court press is the presentation to Harper, it's bringing in Manny's party buddies. Money isn't everything is their thought, except it is. What's the draw of the white sox offer besides overwhelming money. Its money and it always has been about money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Haven't we learned enough that in baseball this other stuff doesn't matter unless the money is equal? I can count how often players left money on the table over the past decade on one hand. And they shouldn't leave any money on the table. It's a business. Edited February 21, 2019 by GermanSoxFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sockin Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) I think the worst part of missing out on both guys is if they miss the playoffs the next few years (mainly looking at 21-23) due to the offense sucking, fans will be able to point to this offseason as the fuck up. Especially if the Padres/Phillies make it and go deep. Edited February 21, 2019 by Sockin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) Eloy will be in LF/DH for a long while. Robert should fill CF as well. I just hope they don’t pass on Harper for RF using Basabe/Rutherford/Adolfo/Walker/Gonzalez as reasons for not going after Harper. Bring in The Show and use the other guys as trade bait. Edited February 21, 2019 by Harper2Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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