Harper to Phillies 13yr/330 mil

[Y2Jimmy0]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think that the White Sox leaked like a sieve for the last 2 months because it tells such a complete story. I think WSD was right and the White Sox seriously increased their offer to Machado right around Soxfest, and he probably heard "The White Sox are going to sign Machado this weekend for 8/$200" or something that was a ridiculously low contract, but the White Sox's player valuations are so screwed up that the White Sox organization believed that was a fair offer that Machado's side would jump at. They said to everyone who would listen  "we have a great offer on the table and they're going to sign it this weekend", because the org believed it. 

I would bet he's basing that tweet on how the org is sounding right now.

Just a few things here: I wouldn't assume that Dave's tweets in the lead up to Soxfest were a reference to Manny Machado. None of the "insiders" actually thought that Machado was signing during Soxfest. Those were complete rando's that thought that. 

You also keep talking about their valuation. The Sox valued Manny Machado similarly or greater to how he was valued by the Yankees and Phillies as well. I don't agree with those valuations. I am stunned that Manny Machado didn't have 10/300 offers in November. This is why the pursuit took so long. The Padres entered the talks publicly on the Friday night of Soxfest. All indications are that the Sox had the highest offer at the time and that held true into January and likely February. The Padres got it done. The Sox failed. The White Sox didn't negotiate in a manner that an organization of their caliber should have if they really wanted the player. They opened themselves up to be outbid and that's ultimately what happened. 

I don't think it's about the White Sox valuation model though. It's a major league baseball issue if anything that the majority of these teams have basically the same pricepoint on many of these guys. 

[EvilJester99]

The “insiders” you have to take the info with a grain of salt.. it’s nice if the info is good but a lot times turns out not to be. Shit changes at times as well. It’s nice to hear the Sox are involved with so and so but until they land them.. it’s pretty much rumor. 

[soulfly]

20 minutes ago, iamshack said:

All i’ll say is this: if you consider that the Sox may have 1) always considered signing both players; 2) potentially preferred to sign Harper if Machado’s market price outpaced their own internal valuation by a certain margin; or 3) preferred Harper but believed converting on Machado may have been easier, given the way the market developed, is it not feasible to see how things may have reached this point?

Been saying the same thing for a while now.  Harper was the main target and that Machado was if the price was right.  They most certainly aren't out on Harper.  They just don't want to get the fan base thinking they have it in the bag again to look even worse than they currently do for not signing Machado.  Again, it's not just the fact they didn't sign him.  It's that they traded for his brother in law and signed his friend, that makes them look like total fools since they didn't land him.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by soulfly

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, shipps said:

To each is own but the insider stuff just doesn’t bother me. I’m angry with the Sox not the guys who were getting info from the Sox. Some weren’t accurate but others were in terms of how the dumbass FO was telling it at the time. The Sox had an arrogant and confident perception of where there were at with Manny and that showed through some of the insiders view of this whole thing. All this anger toward the messenger is misplaced in my opinion. In the end all that was said from the insiders could have been easily ignored. They may have given some a hard time for all the panic but I think in a lot of cases they just wanted everyone to not worry so damn much. It wasn’t a matter of your dumb if you think I am wrong. If that’s how some perceived it, so be it, that’s how you feel. Ultimately the insiders are the ones that look the most silly for believing their sources were as good as gold, not the average Joe which is the majority around here so why the rage? 

I think there is a line here for me.  The people who tried to share what the believed was good information don't deserve scorn.  Soxtalk has always been fine with that, all of the way back to the SI days.  This winter we saw the proliferation of people who were lying to get attention, and it buried some good people in the avalanche.  Of course a decent portion of the board didn't feel like separating the two things, and were more worried about if it worked out like was said or not, so they tarred everyone with the same brush.  A few have even really enjoyed trolling about the insiders the last two days without any real care of who they slandered.

It's just shame that it all fell apart like it did.  It would be nice if we could work backwards as a group to some of the more nuanced discussions instead of just the outrage culture that seems to be infecting this board from the outside world.

[Soxbadger]

13 minutes ago, iamshack said:

Badger, perhaps in retrospect we should have shared nothing. My apologies. 

All i’ll say is this: if you consider that the Sox may have 1) always considered signing both players; 2) potentially preferred to sign Harper if Machado’s market price outpaced their own internal valuation by a certain margin; or 3) preferred Harper but believed converting on Machado may have been easier, given the way the market developed, is it not feasible to see how things may have reached this point?

 

Shack,

No need to apologize. Irrespective of the outcome, I still would have your back in the future. I am more just trying to point out what some people's comments have made others feel like. I really dont think I am the only one, and again Im not really sure why it became a thing but this offseason there was just a different vibe. I have speculated the rise of twitter/facebook/etc has lead to this. Maybe its the "like" function on the board. Who knows. If people want to share what their told, feel free. But this whole idea of who is worthy, etc just doesnt feel right on this board.

As for the last part. If that is true, then really no one knows anything about the their intention. No insider, no reporter, no one. To me it seems backwards to go after Machado first, if you think Harper is more valuable. I would think you push the limit on Harper, and then if it goes beyond, you circle back to Machado. Anything is possible, and obviously I would be happy if the Sox get Harper.  

[Peacock Wrestler]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think there is a line here for me.  The people who tried to share what the believed was good information don't deserve scorn.  Soxtalk has always been fine with that, all of the way back to the SI days.  This winter we saw the proliferation of people who were lying to get attention, and it buried some good people in the avalanche.  Of course a decent portion of the board didn't feel like separating the two things, and were more worried about if it worked out like was said or not, so they tarred everyone with the same brush.  A few have even really enjoyed trolling about the insiders the last two days without any real care of who they slandered.

It's just shame that it all fell apart like it did.  It would be nice if we could work backwards as a group to some of the more nuanced discussions instead of just the outrage culture that seems to be infecting this board from the outside world.

Agreed.   I don't have any problem with anybody giving information from a source and it doesn't come true.  Most of the time, the person admits they were wrong and were relaying the information they received.  The problem is indeed the "fake" sources.   Those are the most annoying and irritable.  Unfortunately, there has been so many "sources" this offseason that it makes the ones that actually have insider information seem irrelevant.  

[iamshack]

Just now, Soxbadger said:

Shack,

No need to apologize. Irrespective of the outcome, I still would have your back in the future. I am more just trying to point out what some people's comments have made others feel like. I really dont think I am the only one, and again Im not really sure why it became a thing but this offseason there was just a different vibe. I have speculated the rise of twitter/facebook/etc has lead to this. Maybe its the "like" function on the board. Who knows. If people want to share what their told, feel free. But this whole idea of who is worthy, etc just doesnt feel right on this board.

As for the last part. If that is true, then really no one knows anything about the their intention. No insider, no reporter, no one. To me it seems backwards to go after Machado first, if you think Harper is more valuable. I would think you push the limit on Harper, and then if it goes beyond, you circle back to Machado. Anything is possible, and obviously I would be happy if the Sox get Harper.  

Boras was likely never going to allow for that to happen.

[shipps]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think there is a line here for me.  The people who tried to share what the believed was good information don't deserve scorn.  Soxtalk has always been fine with that, all of the way back to the SI days.  This winter we saw the proliferation of people who were lying to get attention, and it buried some good people in the avalanche.  Of course a decent portion of the board didn't feel like separating the two things, and were more worried about if it worked out like was said or not, so they tarred everyone with the same brush.  A few have even really enjoyed trolling about the insiders the last two days without any real care of who they slandered.

It's just shame that it all fell apart like it did.  It would be nice if we could work backwards as a group to some of the more nuanced discussions instead of just the outrage culture that seems to be infecting this board from the outside world.

Also, there were soooooo many random tweets of "insider" information I think the insider narrative became extremely convoluted. People were attributing some things that were tweeted with others that weren't even correct. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, shipps said:

Also, there were soooooo many random tweets of "insider" information I think the insider narrative became extremely convoluted. People were attributing some things that were tweeted with others that weren't even correct. 

I know the term is overused now for some strange reason, but even if we had signed Machado, I think this would have been the winter of "Fake News".  It became really hard to track information, where it came from, and if it came from a true source such as a writer, or someone who had information, or someone who was really just looking for attention.

[Soxbadger]

3 minutes ago, iamshack said:

Boras was likely never going to allow for that to happen.

Ultimately the fact that there were 2 options was a gift and a curse. It was a gift because it conceivably increased your chances of getting 1. It was a curse because the ego of the players/agents became a thing. I dont know what Boras would have done. I know he wants Harper to get more. If Sox are at 10/350mil to Harper, and they know Manny will take 10/300. Does Boras blink if the Sox tell him, we sign Machado tomorrow if you dont agree?

I really dont know. But the main issue is, that it appears the Sox never were really driving the negotiation. They seem to have wanted to counter punch. There is nothing wrong with that, and many times its a good strategy. But its not how I would have played it, if what you are saying is true. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Soxbadger

[bmags]

16 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Just a few things here: I wouldn't assume that Dave's tweets in the lead up to Soxfest were a reference to Manny Machado. None of the "insiders" actually thought that Machado was signing during Soxfest. Those were complete rando's that thought that. 

You also keep talking about their valuation. The Sox valued Manny Machado similarly or greater to how he was valued by the Yankees and Phillies as well. I don't agree with those valuations. I am stunned that Manny Machado didn't have 10/300 offers in November. This is why the pursuit took so long. The Padres entered the talks publicly on the Friday night of Soxfest. All indications are that the Sox had the highest offer at the time and that held true into January and likely February. The Padres got it done. The Sox failed. The White Sox didn't negotiate in a manner that an organization of their caliber should have if they really wanted the player. They opened themselves up to be outbid and that's ultimately what happened. 

I don't think it's about the White Sox valuation model though. It's a major league baseball issue if anything that the majority of these teams have basically the same pricepoint on many of these guys. 

Yeah, it's hard to understand what are just post hoc rationalizations. Obviously, the sox weren't supposed to be strong players for machado because their valuation model was correctly pointing to idea he was good, it was, in my interpretation, supposed to be that their financial flexibility should have allowed them to afford Manny on a price that exceeded others valuation models which meant they could get him. Obviously that was up to a point. But I thought the point was that we could afford machado at a level exceeding what we would normally target free agents.

[iamshack]

Just now, Soxbadger said:

Shack,

No need to apologize. Irrespective of the outcome, I still would have your back in the future. I am more just trying to point out what some people's comments have made others feel like. I really dont think I am the only one, and again Im not really sure why it became a thing but this offseason there was just a different vibe. I have speculated the rise of twitter/facebook/etc has lead to this. Maybe its the "like" function on the board. Who knows. If people want to share what their told, feel free. But this whole idea of who is worthy, etc just doesnt feel right on this board.

As for the last part. If that is true, then really no one knows anything about the their intention. No insider, no reporter, no one. To me it seems backwards to go after Machado first, if you think Harper is more valuable. I would think you push the limit on Harper, and then if it goes beyond, you circle back to Machado. Anything is possible, and obviously I would be happy if the Sox get Harper.  

Boras was likely never going to allow for that to happen.

[Balta1701]

24 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Just a few things here: I wouldn't assume that Dave's tweets in the lead up to Soxfest were a reference to Manny Machado. None of the "insiders" actually thought that Machado was signing during Soxfest. Those were complete rando's that thought that. 

You also keep talking about their valuation. The Sox valued Manny Machado similarly or greater to how he was valued by the Yankees and Phillies as well. I don't agree with those valuations. I am stunned that Manny Machado didn't have 10/300 offers in November. This is why the pursuit took so long. The Padres entered the talks publicly on the Friday night of Soxfest. All indications are that the Sox had the highest offer at the time and that held true into January and likely February. The Padres got it done. The Sox failed. The White Sox didn't negotiate in a manner that an organization of their caliber should have if they really wanted the player. They opened themselves up to be outbid and that's ultimately what happened. 

I don't think it's about the White Sox valuation model though. It's a major league baseball issue if anything that the majority of these teams have basically the same pricepoint on many of these guys. 

With how the final few days went down it is 100% clear that the White Sox do not have the same price point as other teams for top flight players and that will infect every move they try to make from now on.

You do not cockily insist that you will be adding a middle of the order hitter even at Soxfest and add the guys relatives and then slap up a wall saying you will not go to a salary that everyone else thought the guy would get. You do not ignore their offer on Monday if you understand player costs.That is a clear, systemic problem. If you think you’ll get the guy if there’s a huge discount, you don’t do all the other stuff. You do that if you don’t realize you’re demanding a huge discount.

[Jose Abreu]

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think there is a line here for me.  The people who tried to share what the believed was good information don't deserve scorn.  Soxtalk has always been fine with that, all of the way back to the SI days.  This winter we saw the proliferation of people who were lying to get attention, and it buried some good people in the avalanche.  Of course a decent portion of the board didn't feel like separating the two things, and were more worried about if it worked out like was said or not, so they tarred everyone with the same brush.  A few have even really enjoyed trolling about the insiders the last two days without any real care of who they slandered.

 It's just shame that it all fell apart like it did.  It would be nice if we could work backwards as a group to some of the more nuanced discussions instead of just the outrage culture that seems to be infecting this board from the outside world.

 

8 minutes ago, shipps said:

Also, there were soooooo many random tweets of "insider" information I think the insider narrative became extremely convoluted. People were attributing some things that were tweeted with others that weren't even correct. 

 

Well put, both of you. It seems as though people are lumping those burner Twitter accounts, Patriots insider guy, etc. with Shack, Dave, and the rest of them as one collective "insider". The reality is that the latter group is actually honest, well-intentioned, and connected while the former is most likely just attention seeking. 

[Frank the Tank 35]

Good gracious. I don't post anymore, but I do come frequently for the rumors since I don't follow all these random social media outlets. As some others have already stated, the normal banter here nowadays isn't really what I'd like to participate in. It's probably me though; I'm getting too old. Honestly, what's the difference between long-time board "insiders" and all the national or local media "insiders?" Have they been any more right or wrong than them? Let me dream a little! Dissecting the minutiae of how it was phrased and being indignant about it feels like I'm watching an episode of my wife's Real Housewives shows. Seems like a sign of the times to get triggered off misplaced or misinterpreted phrasing. Not that I'm an important member of this community, but I'd certainly be out if not for the rumor bearers. I'll go back to my cave now, but I hope the "insiders" know their contributions are appreciated by some regardless of the way the information is delivered. Thanks all. 

[Southwest Sider]

13 minutes ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

Good gracious. I don't post anymore, but I do come frequently for the rumors since I don't follow all these random social media outlets. As some others have already stated, the normal banter here nowadays isn't really what I'd like to participate in. It's probably me though; I'm getting too old. Honestly, what's the difference between long-time board "insiders" and all the national or local media "insiders?" Have they been any more right or wrong than them? Let me dream a little! Dissecting the minutiae of how it was phrased and being indignant about it feels like I'm watching an episode of my wife's Real Housewives shows. Seems like a sign of the times to get triggered off misplaced or misinterpreted phrasing. Not that I'm an important member of this community, but I'd certainly be out if not for the rumor bearers. I'll go back to my cave now, but I hope the "insiders" know their contributions are appreciated by some regardless of the way the information is delivered. Thanks all. 

Yes. This. I know who I trust and I know who I don't. Reasonable people can reach the same conclusions.

I go back to the idea that everything is always fluid. This was talked about more earlier this offseason, but still rings true today. Machado was a fluid situation again as soon as SD entered the game.

The narrative that Harper is still a Sox target makes too much sense. I hope that its true and they convert.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 minutes ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

Good gracious. I don't post anymore, but I do come frequently for the rumors since I don't follow all these random social media outlets. As some others have already stated, the normal banter here nowadays isn't really what I'd like to participate in. It's probably me though; I'm getting too old. Honestly, what's the difference between long-time board "insiders" and all the national or local media "insiders?" Have they been any more right or wrong than them? Let me dream a little! Dissecting the minutiae of how it was phrased and being indignant about it feels like I'm watching an episode of my wife's Real Housewives shows. Seems like a sign of the times to get triggered off misplaced or misinterpreted phrasing. Not that I'm an important member of this community, but I'd certainly be out if not for the rumor bearers. I'll go back to my cave now, but I hope the "insiders" know their contributions are appreciated by some regardless of the way the information is delivered. Thanks all. 

Hit the nail on the head. So much discussion was about what a twitter comment meant. They are usually intentionally vague to create chatter and clicks. It was extended here. Not once have I or will I PM anyone here asking to or wanting to discuss rumors. I got what I wanted in the end and that was where Machado ends up . Rumors and twitter and insiders here do nothing to change the outcome. However it does make the off season more lively, not exhausting not frustrating . You create your own exhaustion or frustration by buying into the hype.

[wegner]

I was a long time lurker here and joined in the discussion a bit because of the pursuit of the whales.  Have I been spending more time here than I should lately?  Maybe.  But it has been for the most part fun.  I look forward to discussing White Sox baseball with real fans because without a doubt this is the best place to go to find a whole lot of them. 

Thanks to all here.

[Jack Parkman]

I appreciate everything about this board. I don't have a lot of friends who are Sox fans, so you guys are it. I've appreciated being a part of this community for the past 13 years. Thanks to Jason and the staff for making this a great board!

[almagest]

I'm surprised this has been so quiet since Machado signed. Seemed like we'd see this get done quickly, and there hasn't really been anything other than "Sox are out, Phillies still in". Either Harper doesn't want to go to Philadelphia or no one is close to a reasonable offer yet. 

[whitesoxwinner]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Haven't we learned enough that in baseball this other stuff doesn't matter unless the money is equal?

that's fair, but part of my point was that if they're trading top prospects to win now, I doubt they will be outbid for harper

[Perfect Vision]

Have to think Boras is trying to get the Sox in.  He wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't give the Sox a day to lick their wounds and then spend a day or two trying to convince Jerry why Harper will be the answer to all his problems.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Perfect Vision

[GenericUserName]

10 minutes ago, almagest said:

I'm surprised this has been so quiet since Machado signed. Seemed like we'd see this get done quickly, and there hasn't really been anything other than "Sox are out, Phillies still in". Either Harper doesn't want to go to Philadelphia or no one is close to a reasonable offer yet. 

Fangraphs had an article saying Harper might not have a deal to match Machado. It basically said that since Harper and Machado are projected to be so similar with Machado maybe being a bit better, teams' valuations of Harper are probably below Machado and the Phillies said Machado went above their valuation so they didn't match the Padres offer. If that is the case, then they are likely offering less than $300m, the Nationals moved on from their $300m offer, the Sox said we were out, and the Giants seem to only want him on a short term deal. So they said Boras might try to save face and get a record AAV instead of breaking $300 if those offers aren't out there. Honestly, a deal like we offered Machado might actually get it done for Harper.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/it-seems-unlikely-scott-boras-has-a-300-million-bid-for-bryce-harper/

[Peacock Wrestler]

2 minutes ago, GenericUserName said:

Fangraphs had an article saying Harper might not have a deal to match Machado. It basically said that since Harper and Machado are projected to be so similar with Machado maybe being a bit better, teams' valuations of Harper are probably below Machado and the Phillies said Machado went above their valuation so they didn't match the Padres offer. If that is the case, then they are likely offering less than $300m, the Nationals moved on from their $300m offer, the Sox said we were out, and the Giants seem to only want him on a short term deal. So they said Boras might try to save face and get a record AAV instead of breaking $300 if those offers aren't out there. Honestly, a deal like we offered Machado might actually get it done for Harper.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/it-seems-unlikely-scott-boras-has-a-300-million-bid-for-bryce-harper/

I don't see Boras allowing it to happen.   If anything, he'll bring this into the regular season.  

[Perfect Vision]

A lot of people don't like Boras, but he is our best friend right now.  He is the voice of Soxtalk haha.  Where Hahn failed, Boras is the one who is going to successfully convince Jerry to greenlight a huge offer for all of the reasons that we've been discussing for months.