Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, iamshack said: Lozano supposedly asked for final numbers prior to New Years’ Day. How many times might he have done this? This thing was almost done many times, only to then suddenly stop. With the benefit of hindsight, the time Lozano honestly was closing it out was the time it is easy to criticize the Sox for not biting. You have no idea how many other times they didn’t bite and nothing happened. So your defense of the White Sox is that "I don't know how many time might he have done this", meaning you're saying that you believe it was possible that Lozano put a reasonable contract, $300 million over 10 years, out as something they would have signed more than once, all the way back in January, and the White Sox said no over and over and over again to a reasonable contract, while he waited for someone to meet it? That...would be worse. Much worse. Frankly, if they had been doing that, then Lozano was being overly nice to the White Sox by even coming back to them after the Padres put a higher offer on the table, because that's a statement that the White Sox front office is a bunch of jokes who can't recognize a fair contract when one is staring them in the face. How is it that any time I accept one of these so-called defenses it makes the White Sox look less competent? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: There was talk all winter of Yoan playing 3B. There was a thread about it. Nothing from the team or its mouth pieces. It was more fan speculation than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 28 minutes ago, iamshack said: You act like the agents don’t feed teams pure bullshit throughout the entire process. I cannot speak for sports agents, but I have been involved in numerous multi million dollar negotiations. In most, both sides realize that during a bid process there will be more bids in the future. If I ever found a salesperson who fed me pure BS, I would not allow them any future bids. It happened maybe twice to me in 25 years. As much as companies are in competition, I would always share info w my counterparts in other companies. Now in Sports there are media reports which can skew the process with rumors. But lets say if Lozano told JR the Padres offered $325 and then they announced a $300 settlement, what happens the next time Lozano has a FA. I am sure JR would tell his fellow owners Lozano lied during negotiations and cannot be trusted. Maybe contract negotiations in sports are totally unethical but this is not a one time event and I think both sides do not want to burn bridges for the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, iamshack said: Lozano supposedly asked for final numbers prior to New Years’ Day. How many times might he have done this? This thing was almost done many times, only to then suddenly stop. With the benefit of hindsight, the time Lozano honestly was closing it out was the time it is easy to criticize the Sox for not biting. You have no idea how many other times they didn’t bite and nothing happened. They negotiated like a bunch of posters on this board wanted them to. "Dont bid against yourself", they said. "No one else will enter this late", they said. Strange part is, youd think those posters would be happy with the result, because it was the likely outcome when things didnt get done in January. You lose momentum, you lose the deal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: So your defense of the White Sox is that "I don't know how many time might he have done this", meaning you're saying that you believe it was possible that Lozano put a reasonable contract, $300 million over 10 years, out as something they would have signed more than once, all the way back in January, and the White Sox said no over and over and over again to a reasonable contract, while he waited for someone to meet it? That...would be worse. Much worse. Frankly, if they had been doing that, then Lozano was being overly nice to the White Sox by even coming back to them after the Padres put a higher offer on the table, because that's a statement that the White Sox front office is a bunch of jokes who can't recognize a fair contract when one is staring them in the face. How is it that any time I accept one of these so-called defenses it makes the White Sox look less competent? I think Lozano put similar numbers out and the Sox refused thinking they were the only game in town. And I think youre misunderstanding Shack. I think he believes that there negotiation wasnt very good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said: Nothing from the team or its mouth pieces. It was more fan speculation than anything. Quote General manager Rick Hahn was asked about Moncada switching positions during his year-end interview session last Wednesday. His answer was steeped more in the hypothetical. "It's conceivable if we made a decision as an organization to try him elsewhere that we would do it as soon as this offseason or next Spring Training, you'd see it in action," Hahn said. "He has made a great deal of progress at second base. "I also think he has the athleticism to be an above-average defender at other positions, too. It's a subject for further conversation. But as he sits here today, I am pleased with the progress and the pitch-to-pitch focus and the athleticism, the arm strength, and foot movement and his hands at second base." https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/yoan-moncada-wants-to-stay-at-second-base/c-296665770 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Balta1701 said: So your defense of the White Sox is that "I don't know how many time might he have done this", meaning you're saying that you believe it was possible that Lozano put a reasonable contract, $300 million over 10 years, out as something they would have signed more than once, all the way back in January, and the White Sox said no over and over and over again to a reasonable contract, while he waited for someone to meet it? That...would be worse. Much worse. Frankly, if they had been doing that, then Lozano was being overly nice to the White Sox by even coming back to them after the Padres put a higher offer on the table, because that's a statement that the White Sox front office is a bunch of jokes who can't recognize a fair contract when one is staring them in the face. How is it that any time I accept one of these so-called defenses it makes the White Sox look less competent? I’m not offering any defense. I’m just trying to point out that things aren’t as simple as you’d like to pretend. I’m sure reasonably bright individuals can discuss geology (or whatever science is your expertise) with you, but that doesn’t make them “professionals.” Yeah, I think Rick is probably questioning everything that happened and how he could have done better. Me personally, I would have been willing to overpay, market be damned. But I don’t know that Rick had that freedom, tbh. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth G.O.A.T. Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: So your defense of the White Sox is that "I don't know how many time might he have done this", meaning you're saying that you believe it was possible that Lozano put a reasonable contract, $300 million over 10 years, out as something they would have signed more than once, all the way back in January, and the White Sox said no over and over and over again to a reasonable contract, while he waited for someone to meet it? That...would be worse. Much worse. Frankly, if they had been doing that, then Lozano was being overly nice to the White Sox by even coming back to them after the Padres put a higher offer on the table, because that's a statement that the White Sox front office is a bunch of jokes who can't recognize a fair contract when one is staring them in the face. How is it that any time I accept one of these so-called defenses it makes the White Sox look less competent? It seems every other team in the market said no repeatedly as well. SD finally did not. I believe the Sox misread that and did not believe the SD offer was at that level. Rick said they heard rumblings about that offer. But I don't think they actually believed it until it went down. They did not want to bid against themselves and that is likely the reason they lost out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth G.O.A.T. Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, iamshack said: I’m not offering any defense. I’m just trying to point out that things aren’t as simple as you’d like to pretend. I’m sure reasonably bright individuals can discuss geology (or whatever science is your expertise) with you, but that doesn’t make them “professionals.” Yeah, I think Rick is probably questioning everything that happened and how he could have done better. Me personally, I would have been willing to overpay, market be damned. But I don’t know that Rick had that freedom, tbh. I agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/yoan-moncada-wants-to-stay-at-second-base/c-296665770 It's conceivable, play him elsewhere, if we made the decision as an organization, above average defense at other positions, etc. Nothing said about playing third base. We know that it was a possibility because of NM coming up. The point is, it wasn't set in stone third base until the day before Manny signed. Looks to me like they were holding off moving him to third until Manny signed. Edited February 25, 2019 by SonofaRoache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, iamshack said: I’m not offering any defense. I’m just trying to point out that things aren’t as simple as you’d like to pretend. I’m sure reasonably bright individuals can discuss geology (or whatever science is your expertise) with you, but that doesn’t make them “professionals.” Yeah, I think Rick is probably questioning everything that happened and how he could have done better. Me personally, I would have been willing to overpay, market be damned. But I don’t know that Rick had that freedom, tbh. 1. For not offering any defenses, your last line offers a defense. 2. Failing to understand that $300 million was not an overpay is an indictment. 3. If Rick did not have that freedom, Rick Hahn needed to work better with ownership to make ownership understand the importance of this deal. That is exactly what a professional front office person, AJ Preller did with his ownership. If Ownership was not on board then Rick needed to get them on board. For example, I know of $40 million they could have saved this offseason if ownership was not ok with spending $300 million, $56 if you count Abreu's arbitration offer. If ownership is giving edicts like "Don't spend $300 million but $250 is ok", which are going to hurt the franchise, the General Manager needs to figure out how to work with ownership to find a way to make ownership content. We saw exactly that happen in San Diego. 4. If he did have that kind of limit and ownership could not get around it and they knew that, then every single time this organization opened their mouths this offseason about adding premium talent, they were putting their feet in their mouths. Every time they leaked confidence to people, they were lying to the people who pay their bills. That behavior would be completely unprofessional as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: I don’t think that was a big deal. It had been in the works since the end of last season. Had they signed him. He would have gone back to second. Not saying it wasn't in the works because Nick is coming up. I'm saying the timing of it was no coincidence. He moved to third 12 hours prior to Manny's signing being official. This announcement could have been official a week prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: 1. For not offering any defenses, your last line offers a defense. 2. Failing to understand that $300 million was not an overpay is an indictment. 3. If Rick did not have that freedom, Rick Hahn needed to work better with ownership to make ownership understand the importance of this deal. That is exactly what a professional front office person, AJ Preller did with his ownership. If Ownership was not on board then Rick needed to get them on board. For example, I know of $40 million they could have saved this offseason if ownership was not ok with spending $300 million, $56 if you count Abreu's arbitration offer. If ownership is giving edicts like "Don't spend $300 million but $250 is ok", which are going to hurt the franchise, the General Manager needs to figure out how to work with ownership to find a way to make ownership content. We saw exactly that happen in San Diego. 4. If he did have that kind of limit and ownership could not get around it and they knew that, then every single time this organization opened their mouths this offseason about adding premium talent, they were putting their feet in their mouths. Every time they leaked confidence to people, they were lying to the people who pay their bills. That behavior would be completely unprofessional as well. The Phillies thought it was overpayment. Come on, dude. Give some people that do this for a living a little deference. What happened to you that you became so omniscient? Did you find a radioactive rock or something? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, iamshack said: The Phillies thought it was overpayment. Come on, dude. Give some people that do this for a living a little deference. What happened to you that you became so omniscient? Did you find a radioactive rock or something? I will not give deference to someone who flat out failed at their job as badly as anyone. They have done nothing whatsoever to deserve deference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Balta1701 said: I will not give deference to someone who flat out failed at their job as badly as anyone. They have done nothing whatsoever to deserve deference. Matt Klentak, too? He’s terrible at his job as well? Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, iamshack said: Matt Klentak, too? He’s terrible at his job as well? Come on. I think he’s referring to the obvious KW/RH....the Phillies have made moves, the Sox on the other hand put all their eggs in one basket and got burned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, iamshack said: Matt Klentak, too? He’s terrible at his job as well? Come on. To be fair, I think Phils get Harper. Sox took what seemed like a guaranteed shot of getting Harper or Machado, and turned it into 0. Its pretty remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Soxbadger said: To be fair, I think Phils get Harper. Sox took what seemed like a guaranteed shot of getting Harper or Machado, and turned it into 0. Its pretty remarkable. Yeah, might. Right now, looks like they’re working on Sox/Machado 2.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, iamshack said: Yeah, might. Right now, looks like they’re working on Sox/Machado 2.0. I hope you are right and the Phillies fail but I don’t see another team that makes more sense to nab him other than the Sox, but it seems Harper will be too expensive for their tastes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, iamshack said: Yeah, might. Right now, looks like they’re working on Sox/Machado 2.0. Are you talking Phillies here? Even if the Phillies strike out here they wouldn’t get as much backlash as the Sox because they landed one of the best catchers in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Bleacher Report’s Lefkoe is now claiming that a deal has been agreed between Harper and Phillies, with a press conference scheduled for Wednesday. He claims that the deal will be worth around $330 million, which will be an MLB record but the exact length of the contract still remains unclear, with it expected to be either for eight or 10 years. https://www.ibtimes.com/mlb-rumors-bryce-harper-phillies-330m-deal-agreed-press-conference-scheduled-2767898 For some reason, the International Business Times is picking up that story from hours ago about the 8-10 years and $330 million and WED press conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, beckham15 said: Are you talking Phillies here? Even if the Phillies strike out here they wouldn’t get as much backlash as the Sox because they landed one of the best catchers in the game. They'd probably get more backlash because it's Philadelphia, and they'd probably deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, beckham15 said: Are you talking Phillies here? Even if the Phillies strike out here they wouldn’t get as much backlash as the Sox because they landed one of the best catchers in the game. If you add Segura, Robertson, McCutcheon and Realmuto AND sign Aaron Nola to a long-term contract extension...well, that's probably already the best offseason of any team not named the Padres. Harper is just the icing on the cake, and makes them the odds-on favorite for the NL East. Right now, it's a 3 team race with the Mets trying to "get a seat at the table" in terms of their quixotic series of moves this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, beckham15 said: Are you talking Phillies here? Even if the Phillies strike out here they wouldn’t get as much backlash as the Sox because they landed one of the best catchers in the game. Check their social media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, iamshack said: Yeah, might. Right now, looks like they’re working on Sox/Machado 2.0. If the Phils blow it and the Sox get Harper, obviously it changes things. But I dont see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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