Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: For sure. I keep trying to play devil’s advocate in my mind about this, but I really can’t see it any other way either. Top guys are just getting to be dangerously expensive, which is forcing teams to find creative ways to create value Top guys are not getting dangerously expensive. There is some degree of sticker shock, but inflation of the top level salaries has not kept up with either overall payroll growth or with revenue growth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Don't forget that Moncada is a switch hitter and is better from the left side. Back to Harper though, If the Sox were actually serious they would have gone to Boras and offered 10/335 last week and it would be over. He'd be at Camelback with the guys. Oh, believe me, I haven't forgotten about Moncada and I know that his strength is hitting from the left side. However, I don't view him as a middle of the order hitter. His greater potential is as a lead off hitter. It's there that he can utilize his speed and good plate discipline. He profiles much better there, than as a slugger. I have always hoped that he would become Rickey Henderson, "incarnate". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipps Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said: Here's the thing about them being quiet about their pursuits of Harper (which I'm sure there is some poking but nothing serious). We already know they botched Machado, so we know the money is there and the Sox dicked around for months only to lose out last minute to the fuckin Padres. So if they miss out on Harper to the Phillies for lets say 10/327. Then we already know either A. They colluded and didn't want to match that and the fanbase is angry or B. Are still cheap as shit and the fanbase is angrier. Just get it done, the Padres didn't work in stealth, just offered the most money. Redeem yourself JR, 83 years old and scared to spend, jesus... Yeah that’s the whole hilarious part of all of this. There isn’t some big secret to how you get a deal done with these guys. Offer them the most guaranteed money WITH incentives if you have to. When you structure deals with incentives only to make up for lack of guaranteed money, to me it’s just a con job. It could pay off for some but for most part the team will make out better in the end. You can possibly get away with conning a mid level star but it’s just not going to work with transcendent players like these two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Jack Parkman said: He won't sign for that. 10/330 and he signs tomorrow. The sad part is that 3 months ago, we all would have laughed at the thought of being able to land Harper at 10 for $330. It's a steal, but JR doesn't want to be the one to "ruin" the market for the rest of the owners by giving out such a big contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Lillian said: Oh, believe me, I haven't forgotten about Moncada and I know that his strength is hitting from the left side. However, I don't view him as a middle of the order hitter. His greater potential is as a lead off hitter. It's there that he can utilize his speed and good plate discipline. He profiles much better there, than as a slugger. I have always hoped that he would become Rickey Henderson, "incarnate". I always saw him as a potential 3 hitter, because I believe if the dude makes contact he's a 30/30 guy multiple times. He also has such a good eye that I could see him as a .370+ OBP guy as well. Go look at Jose Ramirez's stats from the last couple years. That is Moncada's ceiling. To be honest, if not Trout, I could see Moncada as being the next threat for 40/40. Yes, I do believe he has that much power. Edited February 25, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said: The sad part is that 3 months ago, we all would have laughed at the thought of being able to land Harper at 10 for $330. It's a steal, but JR doesn't want to be the one to "ruin" the market for the rest of the owners by giving out such a big contract. What's sad is some actually believe the Sox have a shot here, when the only news is the offer might not be as high as anticipated, and the Dodgers have jumped in. No writer has the Sox bidding now. Even Heyman, Boras's water boy. They had SD in the mix for Machado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said: The sad part is that 3 months ago, we all would have laughed at the thought of being able to land Harper at 10 for $330. It's a steal, but JR doesn't want to be the one to "ruin" the market for the rest of the owners by giving out such a big contract. The market is already almost there. That would only represent a small increase. Moreover, I really think that, at his age, J. R. has less interest in the future of free agency, than in increasing the value of his franchise and winning another championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth05 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, shipps said: Yeah that’s the whole hilarious part of all of this. There isn’t some big secret to how you get a deal done with these guys. Offer them the most guaranteed money WITH incentives if you have to. When you structure deals with incentives only to make up for lack of guaranteed money, to me it’s just a con job. It could pay off for some but for most part the team will make out better in the end. You can possibly get away with conning a mid level star but it’s just not going to work with transcendent players like these two. 100% agree, and this whole notion the Sox are "pissed off". Well okay, if they truly are pissed off they'd be finalizing a contract with Harper today after Middleton failed to seal the deal this past weekend in Vegas. Prove how "pissed off" you are at letting your already diminishing fanbase all the way down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Lillian said: The market is already almost there. That would only represent a small increase. Moreover, I really think that, at his age, J. R. has less interest in the future of free agency, than in increasing the value of his franchise and winning another championship. The last week argues pretty strongly against this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kpet1010 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: What's sad is some actually believe the Sox have a shot here, when the only news is the offer might not be as high as anticipated, and the Dodgers have jumped in. No writer has the Sox bidding now. Even Heyman, Boras's water boy. They had SD in the mix for Machado. Dude if they are under the radar and not telling or leaking that they are bidding then how can you just assume they are not in? Why is it sad to you? What the fuck do you care if someone is excited or hopeful? This board is full of people who are so goddamn negative I swear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The last week argues pretty strongly against this. I don't understand exactly why that is true. The Sox did offer a big contract. The fact that they missed does not demonstrate that J. R. is primarily concerned about the future direction of free agency. If that were his main concern, they would not have even entered the Machado "sweepstakes". Edited February 25, 2019 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Vision Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: What's sad is some actually believe the Sox have a shot here, when the only news is the offer might not be as high as anticipated, and the Dodgers have jumped in. No writer has the Sox bidding now. Even Heyman, Boras's water boy. They had SD in the mix for Machado. Only chance is if Hahn told Boras that, after the Machado debacle, they don't want to be publicly linked to Harper and that if Boras were to leak that the Sox were making an offer, they would deny it and walk away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Lillian said: I don't understand exactly why that is true. The Sox did offer a big contract. The fact that they missed does not demonstrate that J. R. is primarily concerned about the future direction of free agency. They offered a clearly below market deal and were unwilling to pay market rate for a player whose contract we could have guessed 6 months ago. They only were willing to sign him if his contract came in below the expected market. That's not the behavior of someone who cares about winning and is willing to make a few last sacrifices financially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, iamshack said: Oh, he is still alive and well. Be that as it may, I do see a difference in the aggressiveness level since Rick took over. They are much more willing to wait out things. In some cases it has been good, such as the Q deal, and in the case of Machado, well, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kpet1010 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Best part is the Padres we're never considered serious suitors by baseball fans alike and the Sox were, then all of a sudden the Padres had signed Machado. It shocked the entire baseball fanbase and the front office of the Sox too. Now the Sox are pissed, and if they are smart they will do the right thing here. But it's been said by multiple Insiders here and through wsd, that they are in stealth mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Kpet1010 said: Dude if they are under the radar and not telling or leaking that they are bidding then how can you just assume they are not in? Why is it sad to you? What the fuck do you care if someone is excited or hopeful? This board is full of people who are so goddamn negative I swear. I think it's sad for the franchise they put their fans through this. Rick Hahn was actually asked at Soxfest if the Sox would go for both. He said it wouldn't make sense financially. Some took that to actually mean, what do you expect him to say, it's obviously a stealth yes. No means yes, yes means yes. People hear what they want to hear. There is no reason to think the Sox are in the middle of this right now. Be excited. Be hopeful. Be ready to be letdown. Again. Edited February 25, 2019 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, shipps said: Yeah that’s the whole hilarious part of all of this. There isn’t some big secret to how you get a deal done with these guys. Offer them the most guaranteed money WITH incentives if you have to. When you structure deals with incentives only to make up for lack of guaranteed money, to me it’s just a con job. It could pay off for some but for most part the team will make out better in the end. You can possibly get away with conning a mid level star but it’s just not going to work with transcendent players like these two. This is why I'm not particularly sympathetic to the sox dealing with disinformation from lozano. He may not have been transparent with an accurate view of the market or deadlines, but at face value he is clearly signifying their offer was not enough at the moment to sign machado. I will apply this to JR, the sox seemed obsessed with signing these guys with not a dollar more than was necessary more so then just getting the player. It clearly had a disadvantage as it both created doubt about their seriousness and opened themselves up to later bidders when they didn't sit at a high enough bid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sockin Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) FWIW Dave says here that the Sox are pissed off and operating in stealth mode on this. They've stayed in touch but thats about it. Edited February 25, 2019 by Sockin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, bmags said: This is why I'm not particularly sympathetic to the sox dealing with disinformation from lozano. He may not have been transparent with an accurate view of the market or deadlines, but at face value he is clearly signifying their offer was not enough at the moment to sign machado. I will apply this to JR, the sox seemed obsessed with signing these guys with not a dollar more than was necessary more so then just getting the player. It clearly had a disadvantage as it both created doubt about their seriousness and opened themselves up to later bidders when they didn't sit at a high enough bid. At the end of the day, Lozano did his job in getting Machado $300 million guaranteed. Teams were certainly nowhere near that a month or two ago, and he proved that holding out and waiting works for elite free agents. Harper will only benefit from Machado's camp holding out for $300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kpet1010 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: I think it's sad for the franchise they put their fans through this. Rick Hahn was actually asked at Soxfest if the Sox would go for both. He said it wouldn't make sense financially. Some took that to actually mean, what do you expect him to say, it's obviously a stealth yes. No means yes, yes means yes. People hear what they want to hear. There is no reason to think the Sox are in the middle of this right now. Be excited. Be hopeful. Be ready to be letdown. Again. I won't be letdown because my expectations are low but it doesn't mean I'm not hoping or wishing for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Kpet1010 said: I won't be letdown because my expectations are low but it doesn't mean I'm not hoping or wishing for it. I would say less than 1% chance the Sox sign Harper at this point. With an estimated price tag of $350-360 million, there is no way the Sox go to that level of commitment. I'm not even sold that Harper is much better than a 3.5-4 WAR player moving forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said: Only chance is if Hahn told Boras that, after the Machado debacle, they don't want to be publicly linked to Harper and that if Boras were to leak that the Sox were making an offer, they would deny it and walk away. Do you really think Scott Boras of all people would keep the Sox on the down low and make sure everyone knows who else is involved? He isn't going to do them any favors. And it isn't like he knows for sure JR would make the best offer. When does that happen? That's about as silly as thinking the White Sox are such the destination, free agents who are supposed to sign record breaking contracts, would accept $50 million less because they so want to play in an empty stadium with no one watching on TV, no one listening on the radio, and the biggest newspaper in town with no beat writer. The White Sox are so insignificant in Chicago. Think what they must be everywhere else. Signing one of these guys would go a long way towards changing that. But the White Sox still require it's done on their terms, so it isn't going to happen. Edited February 25, 2019 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 It would be about as silly as the Sox trading Quintana to the Cubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I'm still kinda excited. Until he signs, despite all the evidence of failed execution there is still a chance for them to turn around and do something different. Like in a bad tv show, where the protagonist does something completely out of character because the writers were lazy and bored. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I'd say....prepare to be letdown, if you're of the mindset that Bryce is an option for this organization. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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