Harper to Phillies 13yr/330 mil

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Meanwhile I just left Orland Mall and a big sports store there didn’t have a single Sox jersey 

And that’s the saddest part of this all.  The Sox are literally losing the next generation of fans with their shit product and complete lack of star appeal.  Harper would have instantly changed that but alas this organization has zero long-term vision and would rather die a long, slow death than take on any short financial risk.

[Balta1701]

20 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

BaltaBot, this may be your worst post ever.  First, you still don’t understand what selling high means.  Second, it what world are relievers of Colome’s quality getting a 1/$7M contract with a team option?  I actually don’t think there is a ton of surplus value, but to say Colome somehow represents negative value is quite frankly stupid as fuck.

Do you really need to write an insult? 

Jesse Chavez put up a 2.55 ERA, 1.17 WAR last year, 1.059 WHIP, he got 2 years and $8 million. He's 35, but you get 2 years of him for 1 of Colome.

Justin Wilson - 0.74 WHIP ,3.46 ERA last year, $7.5 million, age 31.

Brad Bach: 3.59 ERA, terrible WHIP last year but prior to that better numbers than Colome, 1 year, $4.35 million.

Jake Diekmann; 0.77 WAR, bad ERA last year but solid in previous years, 1 year, $2.75 million.

Shawn KElly - 2.94 ERA last year ,sub-1 WHIP, $2.75 million.

Adam Warren: 3.14 ERA, 0.7 WAR, $2.5 million.

David Phelps: 3.40 ERA, $2.5 Million.

Alex Colome, 1.2 WHIP, 3.04 ERA, 1.0 WAR, 30 years old, $7 million.  

He's getting paid comparable to Soria next year. Picking up his option - he'll get paid like a closer. That's selling low.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:Do you really need to write an insult? 

Jesse Chavez put up a 2.55 ERA, 1.17 WAR last year, 1.059 WHIP, he got 2 years and $8 million. He's 35, but you get 2 years of him for 1 of Colome.

Justin Wilson - 0.74 WHIP ,3.46 ERA last year, $7.5 million, age 31.

Brad Bach: 3.59 ERA, terrible WHIP last year but prior to that better numbers than Colome, 1 year, $4.35 million.

Jake Diekmann; 0.77 WAR, bad ERA last year but solid in previous years, 1 year, $2.75 million.

Shawn KElly - 2.94 ERA last year ,sub-1 WHIP, $2.75 million.

Adam Warren: 3.14 ERA, 0.7 WAR, $2.5 million.

David Phelps: 3.40 ERA, $2.5 Million.

Alex Colome, 1.2 WHIP, 3.04 ERA, 1.0 WAR, 30 years old, $7 million.  

He's getting paid comparable to Soria next year. Picking up his option - he'll get paid like a closer. That's selling low.

 

Lol...are we only evaluating relievers based based on their prior season now? Colome has a nice track record of success and has proven himself able to handle the 9th inning.  I strongly believe he would have gotten a little bit more than Herrera in this market.  There is some surplus value there IMO, although admittedly not a ton.  Either way, selling high means you sold an asset at peak value.  You may not like the return we got for him, but 0 WARP catchers coming off flukey offensive seasons aren’t that valuable.  The time to sell Narvaez was this offseason.

[soxfan49]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And that’s the saddest part of this all.  The Sox are literally losing the next generation of fans with their shit product and complete lack of star appeal.  Harper would have instantly changed that but alas this organization has zero long-term vision and would rather die a long, slow death than take on any short financial risk.

 

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Meanwhile I just left Orland Mall and a big sports store there didn’t have a single Sox jersey 

And I was there recently as well and I'm almost positive that the Sox team store that they opened there less than 6 months ago has already been closed.

EDIT- just checked their website and yes it's indeed been shut down already

Edited March 4, 2019 by soxfan49

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...are we only evaluating relievers based based on their prior season now? Colome has a nice track record of success and has proven himself able to handle the 9th inning.  I strongly believe he would have gotten a little bit more than Herrera in this market.  There is some surplus value there IMO, although admittedly not a ton.  Either way, selling high means you sold an asset at peak value.  You may not like the return we got for him, but 0 WARP catchers coming off flukey offensive seasons aren’t that valuable.  The time to sell Narvaez was this offseason.

Almost all of those guys have similar records of success. I even dropped Greg Holland from the list because he was terrible last year, but he got 1/2 as much as Colome. 

And you insult me as stupid and then you say that Narvaez is a 0  WARP player, so you go specifically to the one where he looks the worst, but he was a 2 WAR player in both B-R and Fangraphs last year and the projections put him from 1-1.5 next year, and that's without any additional coaching.

So in my eyes, the White Sox gave up a more valuable, 1-2 WAR player from last year for a 1 WAR player and the right to pay him more than market value. You can disagree with me fine, but you needed to make it personal.

I'll point this out every time you want to rip him because it's flat out true, the White Sox would have been better off releasing him and signing a FA, but I'm done for now so call me stupid all you want and I hope it brings you joy.

[Chicago White Sox]

48 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Almost all of those guys have similar records of success. I even dropped Greg Holland from the list because he was terrible last year, but he got 1/2 as much as Colome. 

And you insult me as stupid and then you say that Narvaez is a 0  WARP player, so you go specifically to the one where he looks the worst, but he was a 2 WAR player in both B-R and Fangraphs last year and the projections put him from 1-1.5 next year, and that's without any additional coaching.

So in my eyes, the White Sox gave up a more valuable, 1-2 WAR player from last year for a 1 WAR player and the right to pay him more than market value. You can disagree with me fine, but you needed to make it personal.

I'll point this out every time you want to rip him because it's flat out true, the White Sox would have been better off releasing him and signing a FA, but I'm done for now so call me stupid all you want and I hope it brings you joy.

I went with the WAR that is the most complete for catchers and accounts for pitch framing.  By all means debate the value of pitch framing, but ignoring it all together is flat out wrong and misses an element of Omar’s game that is really poor.

I also think evaluating relievers strictly based on their WAR is stupid, but that’s an entirely different debate.  Regardless, you continue to ignore Colome’s track record as a closer and the value of that context.  He has nearly 100 saves over the past three seasons, which is the 5th most in all of baseball.  The guy can handle high leverage situations and close out games.  There is value in that even if you don’t want to admit it.

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

, the White Sox would have been better off releasing him and signing a FA, 

They would have been best off keeping him and Smith and dumping Castillo for nothing.

[chitownsportsfan]

In case anybody wants to feel extra worse:  @JeffPassan For some context on how incredible the response in Philadelphia has been to the Bryce Harper signing: In the first 24 hours after the launch of his jersey, according to @Fanatics, Harper's No. 3 sold more than LeBron James' Lakers jersey did the first day.

Coulda been us with Manny but nope penny smart pound foolish ownership.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just looking at the Phillies offseason and it’s crazy how much they accomplished.  Harper, Realmuto, Segura, & Cutch just on the positional side.  They also were able to move a bad contract in Santana and shift Hoskins to 1B, which is also a big positive.  Throw in Robertson and they had the best offseason bar none.

The sad reality is we could have accomplished something similar over the next two offseasons.  All it took was landing Manny or Bryce this offseason.  After those misses, I just don’t see a great path forward for us in free agency nor do I see a quick turnaround.

[BackDoorBreach]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Just looking at the Phillies offseason and it’s crazy how much they accomplished.  Harper, Realmuto, Segura, & Cutch just on the positional side.  They also were able to move a bad contract in Santana and shift Hoskins to 1B, which is also a big positive.  Throw in Robertson and they had the best offseason bar none.

The sad reality is we could have accomplished something similar over the next two offseasons.  All it took was landing Manny or Bryce this offseason.  After those misses, I just don’t see a great path forward for us in free agency nor do I see a quick turnaround.

They also extended Nola, which is pretty impactful going forward.

[GreenSox]

On 3/3/2019 at 10:43 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

Narvaez can’t catch and his bat doesn’t play anywhere, so they made the right call and sold high on him.

.362 OBP (who on the Sox matches that), 9 homers in 1/2 a season of at bats, .794 OPS all in his 3rd major league season.  He was the 2nd to best hitter on this team last year, which is one place his bat plays just fine.
Colome, not controlled in the Sox competitive window, is a homogeneous average closer...flippable, based on history, for Madeiros or Cordell....
 

Edited March 5, 2019 by GreenSox

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

.362 OBP (who on the Sox matches that), 9 homers in 1/2 a season of at bats, .794 OPS all in his 3rd major league season.  He was the 2nd to best hitter on the team last year, which is one place he can play. 
Colome is fungible...flippable, based on history, for Madeiros or Cordell....
 

Right, you can look at who he has been traded for to date. The guy is what he is, pretty decent reliever getting paid market rate to be so. If he was making 1 million he'd be really nice to have, at 7 mill this year and probably 8 next year, it's not going to get you more than some 16-30 prospect on a teams list.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Narvaez literally could not catch the ball though. He could not be trusted to handle a younger pitching staff.

[yesterday333]

I think I have decided there was collusion between the sox and the phils this offseason. To me that is the only logical reason no to go after Harper after MM signed. There had to have been a "gentlemen's" agreement that if they backed off MM we wouldn't try for Harper. it might sound conspiratorial but I really cant think of a good reason not to go for Harper. (he ended up being cheaper than MM)

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

I think I have decided there was collusion between the sox and the phils this offseason. To me that is the only logical reason no to go after Harper after MM signed. There had to have been a "gentlemen's" agreement that if they backed off MM we wouldn't try for Harper. it might sound conspiratorial but I really cant think of a good reason not to go for Harper. (he ended up being cheaper than MM)

Yeah...it's hard to tell because JRs gut instincts are always to self-police contracts to players that will not be used to increase labor leverage.

Just reading the rundowns of the harper signing from the philly perspective, they did make it seem like they prioritized machado and then harper opened up around when we all heard, mid january or whenever. So there are things out there that make it seem like it was mostly JR self policing.

But it just wouldn't surprise me if the phillies owner and JR shared their top-line numbers for both players, and the sox was higher than phills for machado and theirs for harper was higher than sox, and they agreed not to bid against eachother just to bid up the price when they know the other team will go higher. There you have the phil rogers ...intel? insight? tweet that the sox don't feel they will get harper and don't want to just bid up the price against phils when they won't get him.

But reading the athletic rundown from the phils perspective. They were offering 330 million. They weren't going over. They preferred that be as long a contract as possible, and eventually agreed to 13 years.

So if the sox had offered 10 for 330 I think they get him. If they offer 12 for 335 I think they get him. But they didn't because apparently internally, if we believe kenny williams, they valued harper at below machado, who they tried to hardball and lost.

[Orlando]

8 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

I think I have decided there was collusion between the sox and the phils this offseason. To me that is the only logical reason no to go after Harper after MM signed. There had to have been a "gentlemen's" agreement that if they backed off MM we wouldn't try for Harper. it might sound conspiratorial but I really cant think of a good reason not to go for Harper. (he ended up being cheaper than MM)

Not only that but the fact that all of the Sox mouthpieces quickly flatout said they were not in play for Harper as soon as Manny signed. There was definitely something weird about it. Reinsdorf is also the most likely owner to pull something like that in my opinion.

[Dick Allen]

It would have been interesting to see exactly what happened if the Sox signed one of these guys. It might have really changed things forever. The fan base has been beat down so much and so long, it's just assumed the White Sox operate like they are the Pittsburgh Pirates. Who knows what this might have started.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Dick Allen

[steveno89]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

It would have been interesting to see exactly what happened if the Sox signed one of these guys. It might have really changed things forever. The fan base has been beat down so much and so long, it's just assumed the White Sox operate like they are the Pittsburgh Pirates. 

After what just happened this offseason, I have serious doubts about our ability to make big additions in future offseasons as well. If we weren't going to be players for 26 year old stars, why would we pony up for 29-30 year old guys? 

It very well may be a year early, but you cannot control when premium talent will be available for only money. Using our financial flexibility to sign elite players should absolutely be a large part of our rebuilding effort. 

I believe they did try hard for Machado, and felt they had the best offer until the Padres blew them out of the water at the last minute. Fault still lies with the organization for not getting it done. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

.362 OBP (who on the Sox matches that), 9 homers in 1/2 a season of at bats, .794 OPS all in his 3rd major league season.  He was the 2nd to best hitter on this team last year, which is one place his bat plays just fine.
Colome, not controlled in the Sox competitive window, is a homogeneous average closer...flippable, based on history, for Madeiros or Cordell....
 

The OBP is nice, but the power last year was flukey.  Do you actually want to roll him out at DH or are you ok with his horrific defense / framing at catcher?

[chitownsportsfan]

3 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Narvaez literally could not catch the ball though. He could not be trusted to handle a younger pitching staff.

It's funny I heard a report out of spring training for the Mariners here that said they were working with him on keeping his mitt still and receiving the ball.   Good luck.  If it was easy to fix, he would have fixed it years ago.  I like Narvaez, his bat plays, but his receiving problems make him ideally suited to a backup role twice a week with veteran pitchers.  

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

It's funny I heard a report out of spring training for the Mariners here that said they were working with him on keeping his mitt still and receiving the ball.   Good luck.  If it was easy to fix, he would have fixed it years ago.  I like Narvaez, his bat plays, but his receiving problems make him ideally suited to a backup role twice a week with veteran pitchers.  

This assumes competent coaches. You can't fix a problem with framing if your coaching staff doesn't work with the player on fixing it, and especially if the coaching staff doesn't even realize it's a problem in the first place.

[chitownsportsfan]

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This assumes competent coaches. You can't fix a problem with framing if your coaching staff doesn't work with the player on fixing it, and especially if the coaching staff doesn't even realize it's a problem in the first place.

well that's true but he's a Mariner now!  They have about the same level of MLB development through the last decade as our Sox.  Ackley, Zunino, and so on.  They get credit for Seger I guess but he kinda sucks now as well.  Got old quick.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This assumes competent coaches. You can't fix a problem with framing if your coaching staff doesn't work with the player on fixing it, and especially if the coaching staff doesn't even realize it's a problem in the first place.

yet, this is the same organization that took in Tyler Flowers and turned him into an elite framer.

Navarez is 27 years old - he's a bad receiver. That is not going to change at 28.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

yet, this is the same organization that took in Tyler Flowers and turned him into an elite framer.

Navarez is 27 years old - he's a bad receiver. That is not going to change at 28.

Tyler Flowers was a decent framing catcher going back to 2011. He also dramatically improved in his framing between 2016 and 2017 while working with another coaching staff, 2017 was his first elite framing year. So, you've got a guy who was always decent at it with the White Sox even before it became a thing to be measured, and he dramatically improved after leaving and being coached on it. 

Your example suggests to me it's not a big deal for the White Sox and that guys can improve with proper coaching.

[fathom]

I will never understand why they gave up on him

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarksReeseWIP/status/1103011984528891905