Moan4Yoan Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If they thought their offer was more lucrative, it boggles my mind why they wouldn't have given the agent what he wanted, and what they considered a worse deal. Something isn't adding up in the White Sox spin. They got out negotiated. Nothing more, nothing less. They have a chance to right a wrong with Harper, but I suppose because he will want more than $300 million, the White Sox can't pay a guy that and build a winning team. I don't know why they don't try. They have tried to build a winning team on the cheap, and that hasn't worked out. Maybe they just cannot build a winning team. Great post. Hahn and the gang failed miserably at the negotiations table and now are failing at spinning it to the fans. They must assume we are all stupid, meatball fans. No Rick, an incentivized $70 million is not better than $50 million guaranteed. And that’s without even mentioning the lack of an opt-out in their offer. Go try to sell this absolute BS to someone else. The right thing to do now and immediately would be to throw all of their money at the other Hall of Fame player that fills their other massive hole in RF but I don’t expect the Sox to actually do the right thing that makes complete and utter sense. Edited February 20, 2019 by Harper2Sox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If they thought their offer was more lucrative, it boggles my mind why they wouldn't have given the agent what he wanted, and what they considered a worse deal. Something isn't adding up in the White Sox spin. They got out negotiated. Nothing more, nothing less. They have a chance to right a wrong with Harper, but I suppose because he will want more than $300 million, the White Sox can't pay a guy that and build a winning team. I don't know why they don't try. They have tried to build a winning team on the cheap, and that hasn't worked out. Maybe they just cannot build a winning team. Bryce Harper may be overrated from a pure on-the-field perspective, but damn is he exactly what this franchise needs from a relevance standpoint. He’d give the fanbase something to be excited about and the true star we’ve lacked since the Big Hurt. And the best part is we probably could get him right now for something like 10/$326M. I don’t think the Phillies are actually prepared to do something overly crazy and we’re just going to hand him to them. And when we miss out on these guys, it won’t be due to flawed talent evaluation, tons of competition, or a lack of money, but rather operating principles that are both behind the times and quite frankly stupid. No opt-out check. Unwilling to guarantee a 9th & 10th year because you claim you’ll need resources to build a full team in 2027 & 2028 check. Feeling that players will take less from the White Sox for whatever reason (“hey we got yo butt buddies!”) check. This way of thinking is ingrained in the blood of both the front office & ownership group and the problem for us is it will take an old man actually dying for a culture of accountability to be implemented and for real changes to occur. Edited February 20, 2019 by Chicago White Sox 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Bryce Harper may be overrated from a pure on-the-field perspective, but damn is he exactly what this franchise needs from a relevance standpoint. He’d give the fanbase something to be excited about and the true star we’ve lacked since the Big Hurt. And the best part is we probably could get him right now for something like 10/$326M. I don’t think the Phillies are actually prepared to do something overly crazy and we’re just going to hand him to them. And when we miss out on these guys, it won’t be due to flawed talent evaluation, tons of competition, or a lack of money, but rather operating principles that are both behind the times and quite frankly stupid. No opt-out check. Unwilling to guarantee a 9th & 10th year because you claim you’ll need resources to build a full team in 2027 & 2028 check. Feeling that players will take less from the White Sox for whatever reason (“hey we got yo butt buddies!”) check. This way of thinking is ingrained in the blood of both the front office & ownership group and the problem for us is it will take an old man actually dying for a culture of accountability to be implemented and for real changes to occur. I like this offer. A million over the Stanton deal so it is still technically the new largest contract in MLB history? i would do it, you would do it, but Hahn and the gang likely won’t because they are worried about those 9th and 10th years when they have absolutely no clue what the team will look like. Which still seems like an excuse just to not spend money. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 If the Sox are worried about offering money to guys that may have a poor work ethic, Harper is not one of those guys. He busts his tail to win and compete. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 7 hours ago, Jose Abreu said: My 2 cents are that the White Sox front office was completely blindsided by Machado's decision today and is committed to not being a laughingstock for much longer. I trust the insiders who hinted that we were going for both, and I also think it's important to note that Bucket's last update on Harper was that we feel really good about where we're at with him. I believe that Harper doesn't want to play for Philadelphia and has always been drawn to Chicago. By extension, I believe that if we match their offer, he would pick us. Given our financial situation and what just happened with Machado, there is no excuse to not do this. Contradictory front office quotes on $300 million be damned, the Sox know how important this is and I hope that they at least go down swinging. They have said all the right things, but they still can't win the big one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, Harper2Sox said: I like this offer. A million over the Stanton deal so it is still technically the new largest contract in MLB history? i would do it, you would do it, but Hahn and the gang likely won’t because they are worried about those 9th and 10th years when they have absolutely no clue what the team will look like. Which still seems like an excuse just to not spend money. And this is the problem with a culture based on zero accountability. Every other front office is focusing on a mid term plan (~ next 5 years) and would consider the final two years of Machado’s contract the cost of doing business. The reasons for this are twofold. 1) So much can happen beyond five years that’s impossible to plan with any level of precision. 2) No other GMs can bank on being around nine years from now and must focus on a narrower planning window. Hahn & KW have lifetime jobs and therefore can’t say the final few years of these contracts will be the next front office’s problem. That being said, being overly concerned about Manny’s contract in 2027 & 2028 when all our young talent will be hitting free agency and entering their 30’s (i.e. when our contention window is ending) just shows how clueless these guys are even if you want to go down a long-term path. And I’m not suggesting you offer these guys something stupid and completely ignore potential long-term concerns, but 10/$300M with an opt-out after five years is an incredibly team friendly deal for a 26 year old future HOF. Not willing to pay that when your franchise is at an all-time low in terms of relevance and has “unprecedented financial flexibility” is one of the greatest examples of front office incompetence I have witnessed in my lifetime as a sports fan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: And this is the problem with a culture based on zero accountability. Every other front office is focusing on a mid term plan (~ next 5 years) and would consider the final two years of Machado’s contract the cost of doing business. The reasons for this are twofold. 1) So much can happen beyond five years that’s impossible to plan with any level of precision. 2) No other GMs can bank on being around nine years from now and must focus on a narrower planning window. Hahn & KW have lifetime jobs and therefore can’t say the final few years of these contracts will be the next front office’s problem. That being said, being overly concerned about Manny’s contract in 2027 & 2028 when all our young talent will be hitting free agency and entering their 30’s (i.e. when our contention window is ending) just shows how clueless these guys are even if you want to go down a long-term path. And I’m not suggesting you offer these guys something stupid and completely ignore potential long-term concerns, but 10/$300M with an opt-out after five years is an incredibly team friendly deal for a 26 year old future HOF. Not willing to pay that when your franchise is at an all-time low in terms of relevance and has “unprecedented financial flexibility” is one of the greatest examples of front office incompetence I have witnessed in my lifetime as a sports fan. Could not agree more with this post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 One question for the Harper thread. I don't believe the White Sox organization has any idea what they did to their fanbase yesterday. The only way they actually shut up and pay for Harper, IMO, is if they truly realize that their miss on Machado is a singular event that will do a huge amount of damage to their fanbase. If they understand how many people said "that's it, that's the end of the rope I'm giving them", that might motivate them to take more aggressive actions. Does anyone see any evidence that they understand the damage they did yesterday? So far it seems the insiders are playing the same game, and we're hearing that the White Sox haven't even been in contact for weeks. The only way that they recover is if their response is one of panic; they realize that even if they're good in a few years, the damage they did right now will leave them no fan base left to return, so they panic right now and offer a professional contract that they would not offer Machado. Anyone see any evidence they're responding like that? I don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighurt574 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) The hold up on years 9 and 10 is almost certainly an owner issue, not a GM issue. No GM has that much job security. Panicking and over paying for Harper would only compound the mistake, however. If they’re willing to top $300M, they should have given it to Machado, he was the better bet. Edited February 20, 2019 by bighurt574 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: One question for the Harper thread. I don't believe the White Sox organization has any idea what they did to their fanbase yesterday. The only way they actually shut up and pay for Harper, IMO, is if they truly realize that their miss on Machado is a singular event that will do a huge amount of damage to their fanbase. If they understand how many people said "that's it, that's the end of the rope I'm giving them", that might motivate them to take more aggressive actions. Does anyone see any evidence that they understand the damage they did yesterday? So far it seems the insiders are playing the same game, and we're hearing that the White Sox haven't even been in contact for weeks. The only way that they recover is if their response is one of panic; they realize that even if they're good in a few years, the damage they did right now will leave them no fan base left to return, so they panic right now and offer a professional contract that they would not offer Machado. Anyone see any evidence they're responding like that? I don't. No way. Egos are too big. Live in a state of suspended denial...like KW’s purported shock their supposedly more generous offer that was $70 million and a 5 year option short could possibly be turned down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, bighurt574 said: The hold up on years 9 and 10 is almost certainly an owner issue, not a GM issue. No GM has that much job security. How long have these clowns been around? When is the last time the White Sox went into a season with a team universally thought of as a contender? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: How long have these clowns been around? When is the last time the White Sox went into a season with a team universally thought of as a contender? 2009 or maybe 2011...especially after the Dunn signing. From an 892 to abysmal 569 ops in one year...Engle could probably put up those numbers, even. Edited February 20, 2019 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: One question for the Harper thread. I don't believe the White Sox organization has any idea what they did to their fanbase yesterday. The only way they actually shut up and pay for Harper, IMO, is if they truly realize that their miss on Machado is a singular event that will do a huge amount of damage to their fanbase. If they understand how many people said "that's it, that's the end of the rope I'm giving them", that might motivate them to take more aggressive actions. Does anyone see any evidence that they understand the damage they did yesterday? So far it seems the insiders are playing the same game, and we're hearing that the White Sox haven't even been in contact for weeks. The only way that they recover is if their response is one of panic; they realize that even if they're good in a few years, the damage they did right now will leave them no fan base left to return, so they panic right now and offer a professional contract that they would not offer Machado. Anyone see any evidence they're responding like that? I don't. Of course not. The rebuild is still on track. They are still going to spend all that money, just on lesser players.... They have been scaring off the fanbase for years. Now they are scaring off their most loyal customers. It's time for Jerry to sell. He doesn't have the heart to fire RH and KW. They all need to go. JR had a great run. Almost 40 years, but it happens to everyone. He just doesn't have it as a pro sports owner anymore. Edited February 20, 2019 by Dick Allen 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bighurt574 said: The hold up on years 9 and 10 is almost certainly an owner issue, not a GM issue. No GM has that much job security. Panicking and over paying for Harper would only compound the mistake, however. If they’re willing to top $300M, they should have given it to Machado, he was the better bet. If those years are being offered up as options, I'm not so certain of that. We need Jerry to sell the team and just clean house. Edited February 20, 2019 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: How long have these clowns been around? When is the last time the White Sox went into a season with a team universally thought of as a contender? Sadly probably 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 They need to say fuck it and sign Harper after yesterday. How God damn embarassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, bighurt574 said: The hold up on years 9 and 10 is almost certainly an owner issue, not a GM issue. No GM has that much job security. Panicking and over paying for Harper would only compound the mistake, however. If they’re willing to top $300M, they should have given it to Machado, he was the better bet. You can literally go right now and read articles about how it was Preller's faith in Machado and Preller's competent work in San Diego that convinced ownership to spend the money when they were hesitant to do so. It was in my morning newspaper, 2 paragraphs about it. A competent general manager doesn't just work with limits set by ownership, he helps ownership understand what the right limits need to be, and works with ownership to make those limits reasonable. If ownership wasn't going to go with a fair deal then he needs to help ownership understand that and he needs to make other pledges to ownership - fine ownership, if you won't go to $300 million right now, what if I let Abreu walk and save $18 million this season alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangon Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Orlando said: That's assuming Machado was Plan A. If he's Plan B, then that makes sense. I suspect Harper may be Plan A and a larger offer will hit the table now Machado is off the board. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EloyJenkins Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I have had some time to think about the Manny signing let the steam blow over and while I know they won't do 10/326 for Harper...Harper is actually the better fit for this team. We wanted Manny because his defense, war and durability, but honestly....he wouldn't sell tickets. Bryce becomes the face of the City, the division and allows the Sox to what they do best...trade talent for other teams ability to develop talent. Eloy, robert, Harper not only would be the best outfield in our teams history, it could be an all time great in the history of the sport if everything clicks. Harper will be inconsistent, but put him behind moncada and in front of Eloy and you have the best protection for each possible. Now if only someone could possess Jerry for a day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Man... I just don't even care to follow this shit after the Machado failure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Position-wise, Machado was the better fit for this team. However, I've always thought that Harper was the bigger name, and that signing him would be better for the team. He would be a franchise-changing player that instantly changes the perspective of the Sox. Plus, with his power from the left side, he'd be dropping baseballs in the Goose Island all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: One question for the Harper thread. I don't believe the White Sox organization has any idea what they did to their fanbase yesterday. The only way they actually shut up and pay for Harper, IMO, is if they truly realize that their miss on Machado is a singular event that will do a huge amount of damage to their fanbase. If they understand how many people said "that's it, that's the end of the rope I'm giving them", that might motivate them to take more aggressive actions. Does anyone see any evidence that they understand the damage they did yesterday? So far it seems the insiders are playing the same game, and we're hearing that the White Sox haven't even been in contact for weeks. The only way that they recover is if their response is one of panic; they realize that even if they're good in a few years, the damage they did right now will leave them no fan base left to return, so they panic right now and offer a professional contract that they would not offer Machado. Anyone see any evidence they're responding like that? I don't. I don’t. They are pretty clueless. I’ve seen some posting about the ticket office receiving a lot of complaints, butIm sure they will just chalk that up to overreacting. Maybe they’ll come to realize something might be going wrong when Alonso and Jay are berated by fans at every home game, when their attendance drops again, and the closest they get to filling the stands is Eloy’s debut. God help that kid if he struggles. We’ll end up with 1-2 B-level free agents next offseason. They’ll spin it as “we allowcated money into 2 players that help us be a competitive ball club.” This is the White Flag trade all over again IMO. Whoever owns this team after Jerry is gonna have their work cut out for them, but at least expectations will be very low if non-existent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, cjgalloway said: Man... I just don't even care to follow this shit after the Machado failure.... I don't either, but I just can't stop. I might need counseling...or a few beers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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