Sox trade for Yonder Alonso; Alex Call to CLE

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

That’s cool it’s not a concern of yours but if you take away the Machado angle this looks exactly like a move the Sox would make from 2010-2016 where they acquire a middling vet hoping for a bounce back and call it progress.

If this was uncoordinated and Machado doesn’t sign, then what it doesn’t do is show me an example of how the Sox will be better at structuring a roster after a decade of this same org trying and failing to structure rosters.

Even for small deals, I just have higher standards than “who cares we didn’t give up much and it doesn’t hurt” because during a rebuild every move that doesn’t add to long term winning is taking time, money, or prospects that could be used toward that front.

If it doesn’t matter, than don’t do it. Put $9 mill toward player development instead.

They can easily trade him if MM doesn’t sign. And then it’s like it never happened. Again, Alonso is on a market value deal and is a well respected vet. And it’s a 1 year deal - the Sox will make sure he doesn’t hit 526 at bats unless they want the option to best because he is raking.

[ron883]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Does anyone really believe Alonso was brought in for some reason other than Manny Machado? 

Our current first baseman plays the position as if he is stuck in a cement and is using a frying pan instead of a glove. At very least we get a better fielder for Timmy and Yoan to throw to.

[fathom]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

They can easily trade him if MM doesn’t sign. And then it’s like it never happened. Again, Alonso is on a market value deal and is a well respected vet. And it’s a 1 year deal - the Sox will make sure he doesn’t hit 526 at bats unless they want the option to best because he is raking.

I think it's more likely that Abreu is dealt if they strike out in the next few weeks on the big 2

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

1. It does improve the team. Incrementally, sure, but it improves 1B defense and Alonso is better than Palka.

2. The $9M wasn’t going to be deposited into an account named “Future Free Agency Fund”. Dollars are fungible, and this wasn’t going to be reallocated to future years. Not how it works. Couldn’t be less concerned about paying a solid major league veteran his market rate. The White Sox have a $1.25 to spend and they just spent away 9 pennies. Big fucking deal. 

Alonso and Palka had the same fWaR and Abreu was higher, so it might improve the team, as I think Palka may be due for an unkind correction. But, doesn’t Abreu not hit as well as a DH?  And isn’t like Alonsois a gold glove type, and what, you go from 65 o 66 wins?  They would be better off handing out $9 million in $100 bills around the city.

i think the Sox would have a hard time getting their money back if Machado signed with the Yankees today, and they put Alonso back on the market.

And  all of this is dismissing Alex Call as a legitimate prospect. That’s probably accurate. No one seems too upset he is gone. But if he develops into a serviceable player and this was only a stunt, and it blows up in the White Sox face, that would be another kick in the balls.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ChiSox59]

Just now, fathom said:

I think it's more likely that Abreu is dealt if they strike out in the next few weeks on the big 2

Sure, that works too. Though I doubt we see that happen.

[oldsox]

1. Alonso makes Sox a better team next year.  He's probably still on team in 2020.

2.  Call was expendable.

3.  If Sox draft Vaughn, he will probably be first baseman sometime in 2021.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Alonso and Palka had the same fWaR and Abreu was higher, so it might improve the team, as I think Palka may be due for an unkind correction. But, doesn’t Abreu not hit as well as a DH?  And isn’t like Alonsois a gold glove type, 

i think the Sox would have a hard time getting their money back if Machado signed with the Yankees today, and they put Alonso back on the market.

And  all of this is dismissing Alex Call as a legitimate prospect. That’s probably accurate. No one seems too upset he is gone. But if he develops into a serviceable player and this was only a stunt, and it blows up in the White Sox face, that would be another kick in the balls.

Alex Call is a 24 year old corner OF that isn’t great defensively and is coming off a AA season OPSing just over .700 with minimal power. At best, he’s in the backend of the Sox top 40 prospects and he has at least 8 OF prospects ahead of him. Sure, maybe he turns into a Brandon Guyer type, that that is about his ceiling. He’s one more poor AA season away from being a lost cause. 

I’ve already laid out in this thread this morning why Alonso is a better bet than Palka in 2019. And I think Palka still gets plenty of at bats if we miss on Harper. 

[Mr. Showtime]

6 minutes ago, fathom said:

I think it's more likely that Abreu is dealt if they strike out in the next few weeks on the big 2

If this in anyway gives the Sox a leg up on Manny, do you think the Yankees change their tune and offer him a bigger contract in years or total dollars? You made the comment about Hahn talking to his agent about this move. In theory, could this be using the Sox to make the Yankees pay out more if that's his preferred spot if the money is close?

[wrathofhahn]

29 minutes ago, The Beast said:

There is no harm in this move. There is wayyy too much b****ing about this move. “If they don’t get Machado then this was a waste” is getting old. They need to fill out the roster while they wait for Machado or Harper to respond to an offer. There are still holes elsewhere and I fully expect them to be filled before Harper or Machado to make up their minds. I fully expect there to be a plan B and that this board will have the same meltdown that I did when Trump won the presidency if neither sign.

The trade only happened 14 hrs ago how could a take on it be getting old.

My take has changed once I found out Yondo had an extra year on his deal there is zero chance Yondo today would get a contract of 2/17 million. Zero. I don't think the plan is Machado either because you'd have to think he'd prefer the 17 million to Alonso. So what is the plan? The hell if I know. I'm hoping it's to move Abreu for premium prospects and play Alonso at 1B but we could have still found someone cheaper.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Showtime said:

If this in anyway gives the Sox a leg up on Manny, do you think the Yankees change their tune and offer him a bigger contract in years or total dollars? You made the comment about Hahn talking to his agent about this move. In theory, could this be using the Sox to make the Yankees pay out more if that's his preferred spot if the money is close?

sure that could be possible, but he would have basically manipulated Hahn into taking on 9 million dollars and risking future negotiations with the Sox for his list of clients.  This is a guy with a lot of big named guys, not just Manny/Alonso.

[username]

He doesn’t have an extra year. He has a vesting option with a buyout. If he sucks and/or we don’t need him he’s not going to get that extra year. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by username

[fathom]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

The trade only happened 14 hrs ago how could a take on it be getting old.

My take has changed once I found out Yondo had an extra year on his deal there is zero chance Yondo today would get a contract of 2/17 million. Zero. I don't think the plan is Machado either because you'd have to think he'd prefer the 17 million to Alonso. So what is the plan? The hell if I know. I'm hoping it's to move Abreu for premium prospects and play Alonso at 1B but we could have still found someone cheaper.

The Sox can EASILY make sure he doesn't get over 500 at bats if they don't want that threshold to get met.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

The trade only happened 14 hrs ago how could a take on it be getting old.

My take has changed once I found out Yondo had an extra year on his deal there is zero chance Yondo today would get a contract of 2/17 million. Zero. I don't think the plan is Machado either because you'd have to think he'd prefer the 17 million to Alonso. So what is the plan? The hell if I know. I'm hoping it's to move Abreu for premium prospects and play Alonso at 1B but we could have still found someone cheaper.

Dude it’s a  vesting option. The only way it will vest as if he hits 526 at bats, the only way he’s going to hit that is if he is playing extremely well and the Sox want it to be hit.  Alonso will be platooned. 

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, fathom said:

sure that could be possible, but he would have basically manipulated Hahn into taking on 9 million dollars and risking future negotiations with the Sox for his list of clients.  This is a guy with a lot of big named guys, not just Manny/Alonso.

And word would get out that he is a snake. There is obviously a lot of BSing in negotiations both ways,, but the vast majority of these guys, Boras included, do operate ethically. I doubt Machado’s agent would risk having his name dragged through the mud, harming future negotiations with all teams.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Mr. Showtime]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

sure that could be possible, but he would have basically manipulated Hahn into taking on 9 million dollars and risking future negotiations with the Sox for his list of clients.  This is a guy with a lot of big named guys, not just Manny/Alonso.

Just tossing it out as a theory, always appreciate your takes.

[wrathofhahn]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Dude it’s a  vesting option. The only way it will vest as if he hits 526 at bats, the only way he’s going to hit that is if he is playing extremely well and the Sox want it to be hit.  Alonso will be platooned. 

The other poster said it was 526 PA. It doesn't take much to get that amount that is basically Davidson territory. 115-125 ish games depending on how the team hits with him in the lineup.

[bmags]

My sense on Yankees and Manny is it’s very much like the Stanton acquisition. “Well if he’s interested we should do our due diligence and try to make it work but if not, no big deal.”

I don’t sense a drive that they must sign him.

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

The other poster said it was 526 PA. It doesn't take much to get that amount that is basically Davidson territory. 115-125 ish games depending on how the team hits with him in the lineup.

4 White Sox reach that total last year. Matt Davidson wasn’t one of them. Anderson, Moncada, Abreu, Sanchez. 

The only way he will reach it is if that is what the White Sox want. It is a non issue.

[wrathofhahn]

Just now, bmags said:

My sense on Yankees and Manny is it’s very much like the Stanton acquisition. “Well if he’s interested we should do our due diligence and try to make it work but if not, no big deal.”

I don’t sense a drive that they must sign him.

There is no need for all this talk about Didi and them needing SS the smarter move would be just to play Torres there and sign one of the many 2B free agents like Kinsler (signed), Schoop (signed), Murphy, Asdrubal, Lowrie, Dozier, Forsythe, LeMahieu, and on and on.

2B is deep this FA. It's why I wouldn't be opposed to moving Moncada to CF

[Chi Town Sox]

37 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

They can easily trade him if MM doesn’t sign. And then it’s like it never happened. Again, Alonso is on a market value deal and is a well respected vet. And it’s a 1 year deal - the Sox will make sure he doesn’t hit 526 at bats unless they want the option to best because he is raking.

I don’t understand why people cannot understand the simple concept of your first sentence. 

 

This isn’t a terrible move and he can be traded at any point if Machado doesn’t sign. 

 

Jesus. 

[wrathofhahn]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

4 White Sox reach that total last year. Matt Davidson wasn’t one of them. Anderson, Moncada, Abreu, Sanchez. 

The only way he will reach it is if that is what the White Sox want. It is a non issue.

It's an issue because it's easy to see a scenario where he reaches it and still isn't worth that amount next year and if he doesn't reach it he still gets 9 million. That's lose -lose.

Either don't play him and pay him 9 million or play him and 17 million. The only way this deal works is if he becomes a 9 million player again. That is a pretty narrow needle to thread.

Edited December 15, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

It's an issue because it's easy to see a scenario where he reaches it and still isn't worth that amount next year and if he doesn't reach it he still gets 9 million. That's lose -lose

No, it’s not. The team is in charge of who gets at bats. If they don’t want him to reach it, he won’t reach it. This isn’t rocket science. 

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

It's an issue because it's easy to see a scenario where he reaches it and still isn't worth that amount next year and if he doesn't reach it he still gets 9 million. That's lose -lose

The only scenario in which he will reach it is if the team wants him to reach it. Which means he is having a big year. If he is his usual mediocre self, he will sit vs,. LHP, he will be n the bench for Palka some, and he will hit down in the order, all limiting his plate appearances.  There is no worry with it. If the option vests, we all will be happy it did.

[fathom]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

The only scenario in which he will reach it is if the team wants him to reach it. Which means he is having a big year. If he is his usual mediocre self, he will sit vs,. LHP, he will be n the bench for Palka some, and he will hit down in the order, all limiting his plate appearances.  There is no worry with it. If the option vests, we all will be happy it did.

if some of the fans on here think that Hahn and the rest of Sox management is too dumb to figure this stuff out, then they really might as well just stop watching baseball until Reinsdorf sells the team.

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Chi Town Sox said:

I don’t understand why people cannot understand the simple concept of your first sentence. 

 

This isn’t a terrible move and he can be traded at any point if Machado doesn’t sign. 

 

Jesus. 

Cleveland traded him to the White Sox for nothing.  Maybe there is another team that will take him for nothing, but it’s pretty doubtful right now, because the Tribe probably would have sent him elsewhere if only because of the small chance he could come back to haunt them.