Machado: Update - Manny, do you officially like us?

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

We gave up Alex Call for Alonso..... the Yanks have no need for Alonso ... he would be cut-bait, release material on the Yankees. And the Yankees don't have to pull stunts to get players ... they win.

Alonso was a desperate move, by one of the worst franchises in MLB history with a cheap owner and in a poor run front office. It was a $9mm roll of the dice (maybe $18mm) for a player that will bring nothing than "leadership" (our FO favorite buzz word) in a landscape where $9mm can net you a bunch of better pieces in FA.

$9mm (+$2.5mm on McCann) could have bought you:

Matt Shoemaker, Erasmo Ramirez, Justin Bour, Jung Ho Kang, and Lucroy.

Alonso and McCann have no trade value. absolutely ZERO upside for the future of the franchise. They are place holders. Alonso has that option that zaps any chance of him being traded and McCann is DFA material. At least the list above would have filled some voids (Kang at 3b, Bour wouldn't fill al need, but hes a hell of a lot better than Alonso, Lucroy has 25X potential of bringing back some mid-level prospect over McCann, Shoemaker could have been a nice #5 for 100IP, and Erasmo could fill the swing role of Hector Santiago -- and they're all ONE year options) I'm not saying any of those guys are great or even good, however the way we allocate money in the offseason is pathetic. Don't sell me on leadership. It's a desperate move that we attempted because we're reduced to being clown barkers bringing in brothers of FA we want to sign. It's more sad than anything. It's the equivalent of sending Benny the Bull to O'Hare...  and why? Cause we know the rebuild is doing terribly thus far. Name who from this roster is on this 2021 or 2022 roster that we HOPE competes for something...

Reynaldo Lopez as a #4? Tim Anderson ... probably Yoan as some sort of piece? Anybody else? 3 spots filled. 22 to go. If I'm Machado I'm not going to a franchise for TEN YEARS that doesn't spend and by all accounts at best will be the Tigers, Indians, or Brewers for 5 years before selling off pieces. He had that with the Orioles. I'd sign with teams that have a proven track record that they'll stretch and sign players even when they're at the luxury tax. A proven track record of winning. I'd only sign with the Sox if they gave me a record breaking contract. Otherwise I'd be a Yankee or Phillie. With no ties to the Sox .... no growing up going to Comiskey... no childhood memories.... separate yourselves from the situation and look at it objectively.... very few of us would sign with the Sox.

Sox need to overpay, and overpay a lot. And that's fine. The overpay is due to JR cheap arse underpaying for the past decades. Give Machado 12 years if he needs it. It's the cost of doing business because of the predicament he's put them in over the past decade. If you're not willing to do that, JR won't be willing to do that when it matters either.

Bah Humbug.

Bah Humbug is right, but you do make several good points. I also LMAO at any poster who thinks Alonso's $9 million is no big deal, but scoff at offering Manny $40 million a year vs. $35 million. WTF? 

But if they miss out on these guys it will be one of 2 things. Either they are not willing to offer the most money, which may someday make them think sweet talk really doesn't work with top free agents. Or they offered the most money by a reasonable amount but the perception of the team they run is so bad, they don't want to play here, even if the manager speaks Spanish. 

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

We gave up Alex Call for Alonso..... the Yanks have no need for Alonso ... he would be cut-bait, release material on the Yankees. And the Yankees don't have to pull stunts to get players ... they win.

Alonso was a desperate move, by one of the worst franchises in MLB history with a cheap owner and in a poor run front office. It was a $9mm roll of the dice (maybe $18mm) for a player that will bring nothing than "leadership" (our FO favorite buzz word) in a landscape where $9mm can net you a bunch of better pieces in FA.

$9mm (+$2.5mm on McCann) could have bought you:

Matt Shoemaker, Erasmo Ramirez, Justin Bour, Jung Ho Kang, and Lucroy.

Alonso and McCann have no trade value. absolutely ZERO upside for the future of the franchise. They are place holders. Alonso has that option that zaps any chance of him being traded and McCann is DFA material. At least the list above would have filled some voids (Kang at 3b, Bour wouldn't fill al need, but hes a hell of a lot better than Alonso, Lucroy has 25X potential of bringing back some mid-level prospect over McCann, Shoemaker could have been a nice #5 for 100IP, and Erasmo could fill the swing role of Hector Santiago -- and they're all ONE year options) I'm not saying any of those guys are great or even good, however the way we allocate money in the offseason is pathetic. Don't sell me on leadership. It's a desperate move that we attempted because we're reduced to being clown barkers bringing in brothers of FA we want to sign. It's more sad than anything. It's the equivalent of sending Benny the Bull to O'Hare...  and why? Cause we know the rebuild is doing terribly thus far. Name who from this roster is on this 2021 or 2022 roster that we HOPE competes for something...

Reynaldo Lopez as a #4? Tim Anderson ... probably Yoan as some sort of piece? Anybody else? 3 spots filled. 22 to go. If I'm Machado I'm not going to a franchise for TEN YEARS that doesn't spend and by all accounts at best will be the Tigers, Indians, or Brewers for 5 years before selling off pieces. He had that with the Orioles. I'd sign with teams that have a proven track record that they'll stretch and sign players even when they're at the luxury tax. A proven track record of winning. I'd only sign with the Sox if they gave me a record breaking contract. Otherwise I'd be a Yankee or Phillie. With no ties to the Sox .... no growing up going to Comiskey... no childhood memories.... separate yourselves from the situation and look at it objectively.... very few of us would sign with the Sox.

Sox need to overpay, and overpay a lot. And that's fine. The overpay is due to JR cheap arse underpaying for the past decades. Give Machado 12 years if he needs it. It's the cost of doing business because of the predicament he's put them in over the past decade. If you're not willing to do that, JR won't be willing to do that when it matters either.

Bah Humbug.

Kang was always sticking with the Pirates for giving him so many chances, and I’m not sure how someone with his off field and visa issues is the best move...Lucroy seems to be done.

The other three, up you could be right...but none of those names will turn into 3-4 WAR prospects in all likelihood.  Of course, the same can be said of Alonso, Castillo, Colome, Nova and McCann.  

Actually, you add it all up...a lot of that money should have been invested in scouting, evaluation, coaching, analytics, international free agents like Kikuchi.  Just TRY something different.   That list from the second paragraph could be a reprint of 2014-16, actually.

Edited December 31, 2018 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

The Sox have to dare to be different. Try something new. Do whatever it takes to sign one of these guys. Bill Veeck said that paying stars wouldn't kill you, it was paying for mediocrity, which seems to have been a White Sox staple for years. 

They are trying something new. They did a total tear down and rebuild to attempt to have a farm system deep enough to have sustained success.

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Bah Humbug is right, but you do make several good points. I also LMAO at any poster who thinks Alonso's $9 million is no big deal, but scoff at offering Manny $40 million a year vs. $35 million. WTF? 

But if they miss out on these guys it will be one of 2 things. Either they are not willing to offer the most money, which may someday make them think sweet talk really doesn't work with top free agents. Or they offered the most money by a reasonable amount but the perception of the team they run is so bad, they don't want to play here, even if the manager speaks Spanish. 

You continue to ignore the 3rd option that the players desire to play for a single above ALL other teams not just the White Sox overwhelmed all other factors.

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Oh no, I’m not scared to spend some money on a big name player. I’m scared to spend big money on Manny Machado specifically, especially if he has no desire to be here. I don’t see that guy as a cornerstone and leader of this rebuild. 

This isn’t the NFL, we don’t need Machado to be a leader, we just need him to keep putting up 6 win seasons.  The value of having a star contributor like Manny would be absolutely huge for the rebuild.  You only have so many roster spots and the marginal benefit of a high win player is significant.  Unfortunately, guys like this typically don’t hit free agency at 26 and teams like us should be doing everything in our power to land these type of players when the opportunities present themselves.  It sounds like you just don’t like him for personal reasons and that’s a poor way to contract a baseball team.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You continue to ignore the 3rd option that the players desire to play for a single above ALL other teams not just the White Sox overwhelmed all other factors.

It's time the White Sox attempt to make themselves one of those teams, instead of  just trying. 

Making excuses shows you have accepted mediocrity at best. 

If you want to be the best, you have to act like the best. Corbin wanted to play for the Yankees as well. But the Nats offered him $40 million more. He's a Nat. It's OK for the Yankees because they have others that will sign with them, despite guys like Stanton getting booed out of the building. 

[Dick Allen]

12 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They are trying something new. They did a total tear down and rebuild to attempt to have a farm system deep enough to have sustained success.

How can you say that? If, and it's a huge if, Cease and Kopech turn into Sale and Q, how is the rotation better than when they won 78 games? Eaton was a 6.0 WAR corner OF. If Eloy is one, great. Maybe they get back to that level with a lot of these guys working out. But sustained success? That's crazy at this point. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

It's time the White Sox attempt to make themselves one of those teams, instead of  just trying. 

Making excuses shows you have accepted mediocrity at best. 

If you want to be the best, you have to act like the best. Corbin wanted to play for the Yankees as well. But the Nats offered him $40 million more. He's a Nat. It's OK for the Yankees because they have others that will sign with them, despite guys like Stanton getting booed out of the building. 

100% agree.  And I think a key thing that shouldn’t be overlooked is there are two whales on the market.  If the Sox are prepared to do some crazy shit, there is zero excuse for not landing one of these guys.  The odds of both of them turning down substantial amounts of money is probably near zero.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This isn’t the NFL, we don’t need Machado to be a leader, we just need him to keep putting up 6 win seasons.  The value of having a star contributor like Manny would be absolutely huge for the rebuild.  You only have so many roster spots and the marginal benefit of a high win player is significant.  Unfortunately, guys like this typically don’t hit free agency at 26 and teams like us should be doing everything in our power to land these type of players when the opportunities present themselves.  It sounds like you just don’t like him for personal reasons and that’s a poor way to contract a baseball team.

Well, it would be nice to have a somewhat likable franchise cornerstone.   Albert Belle as the best example in franchise history isn’t much of a bar to clear (in terms of character), but when you’re investing $300-400 million...shouldn’t we have some minimal expectation that the player will do more than just collect a paycheck?

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

100% agree.  And I think a key thing that shouldn’t be overlooked is there are two whales on the market.  If the Sox are prepared to do some crazy shit, there is zero excuse for not landing one of these guys.  The odds of both of them turning down substantial amounts of money is probably near zero.

And if they can't offer what it will take now, when will they?

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

Well, it would be nice to have a somewhat likable franchise cornerstone.   Albert Belle as the best example in franchise history isn’t much of a bar to clear (in terms of character), but when you’re investing $300-400 million...shouldn’t we have some minimal expectation that the player will do more than just collect a paycheck?

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but this is somewhat absurd.  There are only so many stars that hit free agency in their prime.  If you’re going place a requirement that they be likable, a leader, etc., you’ve just eliminated half of the options that will be available this offseason.  We aren’t the Yankees or Dodgers who can be a little more picky, we have to sign whichever whale we can get.  Now don’t get me wrong, I would prefer Harper because of the intangibles  he provides, but we can not afford to pass on Machado while we wait for Bryce.  Even above star power, we need impact talent more than anything.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This isn’t the NFL, we don’t need Machado to be a leader, we just need him to keep putting up 6 win seasons.  The value of having a star contributor like Manny would be absolutely huge for the rebuild.  You only have so many roster spots and the marginal benefit of a high win player is significant.  Unfortunately, guys like this typically don’t hit free agency at 26 and teams like us should be doing everything in our power to land these type of players when the opportunities present themselves.  It sounds like you just don’t like him for personal reasons and that’s a poor way to contract a baseball team.

I’m always skeptical of guys that have career years prior to FA. I’m also skeptical of guys that are expected to be leaders of a rebuild that have publicly admitted they don’t bust ass. Maybe I’m old school, but to me this guy has all the makings of a clubhouse cancer if he joins a team with a bunch of young guys still trying to figure out what it means to be big leaguers, losing 85+ games for a couple more years, and didn’t really want to be here in the first place (but decided the stupid money was too much to pass up).

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

How can you say that? If, and it's a huge if, Cease and Kopech turn into Sale and Q, how is the rotation better than when they won 78 games? Eaton was a 6.0 WAR corner OF. If Eloy is one, great. Maybe they get back to that level with a lot of these guys working out. But sustained success? That's crazy at this point. 

It's not crazy. You are looking at very few of the players coming through the system. If those 3 players you mentioned are the only ones, sure. But add Collins, Robert, Rutherford, Hansen, Madrgal, Burdi, Basaabe, Dunning am9 g others and they have a system that is capable of sustained production.

[GreenSox]

52 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Well, another couple years of top 5 draft picks and a farm system ranked in the top 3 for several consecutive years will just have to overcome the ineptitude of the front office I suppose.

The front office is perfectly capable of screwing up drafts in which they have a top 5 pick.  That's no salve.  If they can't do it with these players and prospects, it's not happening.
As for the idea of the Sox being good at developing starting pitching, where is it?  Oh sure Sale and Q 7 years ago.....

Edited December 31, 2018 by GreenSox

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m always skeptical of guys that have career years prior to FA. I’m also skeptical of guys that are expected to be leaders of a rebuild that have publicly admitted they don’t bust ass. Maybe I’m old school, but to me this guy has all the makings of a clubhouse cancer if he joins a team with a bunch of young guys still trying to figure out what it means to be big leaguers, losing 85+ games for a couple more years, and didn’t really want to be here in the first place (but decided the stupid money was too much to pass up).

IMO Harper has a chance to be a bigger clubhouse cancer.  

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It's not crazy. You are looking at very few of the players coming through the system. If those 3 players you mentioned are the only ones, sure. But add Collins, Robert, Rutherford, Hansen, Madrgal, Burdi, Basaabe, Dunning am9 g others and they have a system that is capable of sustained production.

None of them have shown sustained success in the minor leagues yet.  

I have bought Rick Hahn's BS for way too long. Not anymore. He's been the GM for 6 seasons, and the team is 134 games under .500, and most likely is headed for another rough one. But hey, they are rebuilding. They weren't winning when they were going for it with guys like Sale, and Q and Eaton signed to team friendly deals. How will this be any different?

[he gone.]

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It's time the White Sox attempt to make themselves one of those teams, instead of  just trying. 

Making excuses shows you have accepted mediocrity at best. 

If you want to be the best, you have to act like the best. Corbin wanted to play for the Yankees as well. But the Nats offered him $40 million more. He's a Nat. It's OK for the Yankees because they have others that will sign with them, despite guys like Stanton getting booed out of the building. 

Bingo. Money talks. Corbin was linked to the Yanks for so long... one extra year on a contract and he was a Nat. Maybe sometime in our future we can be like one of those franchises, but at this point we have to be willing to pay extra or a longer contract. I'd rather be sitting in 2030 in the last year of a Machado deal knowing we went for it all from 2020-2027 than watching him hit a clutch homer for the Yanks against us in 2022 ALCS. Look at these beefed up rosters from the BoSox, Astros, Yanks, etc. We're not going to compete with them if we don't sign ultra talent. Open the pocketbook.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And if they can't offer what it will take now, when will they?

I think they will try again next year with Arenado & Rendon (if they make it), but those guys will be entering age 29 season (so less attractice to us) and who knows they just may have more suitors than the current whales do.  If you told me a year ago there would only be three teams in the mix for Machado & Harper I would have said you were crazy.  The reality is none of the traditional big spenders are involved for these guys and plan to do whatever it takes land one of them.  This honestly may be the best opportunity we have to land a whale and that’s the primary reason I’ve been so optimistic.  If we’re prepared to spend, there is zero excuse not landing one of these guys.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, BrianAnderson said:

Bingo. Money talks. Corbin was linked to the Yanks for so long... one extra year on a contract and he was a Nat. Maybe sometime in our future we can be like one of those franchises, but at this point we have to be willing to pay extra or a longer contract. I'd rather be sitting in 2030 in the last year of a Machado deal knowing we went for it all from 2020-2027 than watching him hit a clutch homer for the Yanks against us in 2022 ALCS. Look at these beefed up rosters from the BoSox, Astros, Yanks, etc. We're not going to compete with them if we don't sign ultra talent. Open the pocketbook.

Roland Hemond once spoke about when the White Sox signed Carlton Fisk. He wanted 3 years. Hemond told JR that he figured Fisk had 2 years left, but the Sox were trying to do what they supposedly are trying to do now, and establish themselves as a player in MLB, so they wound up giving him the 3 years figuring the last one would be the tax they paid. Of course he played 13 more years. And JR pretty much had instant success with a team that had been a doormat for years. I don't understand why they got away from that. 

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m always skeptical of guys that have career years prior to FA. I’m also skeptical of guys that are expected to be leaders of a rebuild that have publicly admitted they don’t bust ass. Maybe I’m old school, but to me this guy has all the makings of a clubhouse cancer if he joins a team with a bunch of young guys still trying to figure out what it means to be big leaguers, losing 85+ games for a couple more years, and didn’t really want to be here in the first place (but decided the stupid money was too much to pass up).

Career year?  How was this season that much different than his 2015 & 2016 seasons?  And do you not expect young players to improve as they reach their prime?  Come on man, just come out and say you don’t like the dude and are unable to be objective.

Also, if you’re only interesting in signing players that want to be here, then god only knows when the next free agent will be joining us.  Outside of summers in Chicago, we aren’t a very desirable destination at the moment and won’t be until we have some level of sustained success.

[GreenSox]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Roland Hemond once spoke about when the White Sox signed Carlton Fisk. He wanted 3 years. Hemond told JR that he figured Fisk had 2 years left, but the Sox were trying to do what they supposedly are trying to do now, and establish themselves as a player in MLB, so they wound up giving him the 3 years figuring the last one would be the tax they paid. Of course he played 13 more years. And JR pretty much had instant success with a team that had been a doormat for years. I don't understand why they got away from that. 

They signed Floyd Bannister to a 5 year deal too. I always figured it related to Eddie Einhorn taking a step back from Sox operations after the 1980s.

[ptatc]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

None of them have shown sustained success in the minor leagues yet.  

I have bought Rick Hahn's BS for way too long. Not anymore. He's been the GM for 6 seasons, and the team is 134 games under .500, and most likely is headed for another rough one. But hey, they are rebuilding. They weren't winning when they were going for it with guys like Sale, and Q and Eaton signed to team friendly deals. How will this be any different?

You haven't given the rebuild a chance. It's been 2 years. I agree if the rebuild doesn't work they need to clean house. But you need to give a total rebuild a chance to succeed. Changing it in mid process wont help. They need to see if they prospects will indeed work. If not it's going to be another 5 years of the same process with another FO. Build with just FA is not a winning formula.

[Chicago White Sox]

I know some of you guys have already abandoned the Machado ship, but I’m going to reiterate the silence from legit insiders is deafening.  Not a single guy has responded to Dan Clark’s report.  If things were really as close as some of these minor / New York “insiders” were suggesting, one of the national guys would have gotten some indication on this by now and tweeted accordingly.  I truly don’t think a decision has been made yet and fully believe we’re still in this thing.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You haven't given the rebuild a chance. It's been 2 years. I agree if the rebuild doesn't work they need to clean house. But you need to give a total rebuild a chance to succeed. Changing it in mid process wont help. They need to see if they prospects will indeed work. If not it's going to be another 5 years of the same process with another FO. Build with just FA is not a winning formula.

I think it's ridiculous these dopes were given the chance to do the rebuild. They already have shown their incompetence. We will wait for next year's free agents, and get shutout and say well he really wanted to be a Yankee or a Cub or a Red Sox or a Dodger, nothing could have been done.  Oh well, maybe Yolmer will dump some water on his head again.  Why doesn't anyone have their heart set to be a White Sox? We know why, it's because they suck. 

[Ducksnort]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I think it's ridiculous these dopes were given the chance to do the rebuild. They already have shown their incompetence. We will wait for next year's free agents, and get shutout and say well he really wanted to be a Yankee or a Cub or a Red Sox or a Dodger, nothing could have been done.  Oh well, maybe Yolmer will dump some water on his head again.  Why doesn't anyone have their heart set to be a White Sox? We know why, it's because they suck. 

Someone's having a shitty Monday