Machado: Update - Manny, do you officially like us?

[Ross Gload Fan]

20 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

The funny thing is ... the return from the Cubs trade hasn't even hit the majors yet so... we don't know how successful it will truly be. 

I was just about to say this. Kopech can still be an ace, I really like what I see from Lopez (coaching and conditioning could help), Robert is still getting used to things and getting over nagging dumb injuries. The talent is there and just needs more time. I think the true fans respect and see this. It's  the people who dont make it their life to know about this that are blind to see it.

[Special K]

What seems different about the Sox rebuild (and sucks) is that they haven’t had a breakout prospect... I expect Eloy to be that, but until that happens, everything with the rebuild has been a massive disappointment.

Moncada, Giolito, Burger, Kopech, Adolfo, Fulmer, Collins, Robert... all disappointing in some degree whether injuries or poor play. These are supposed to be the “core pieces”

now look at all the other rebuilding teams, they’ve all had breakout stars... see Cubs, Braves, Astro’s, etc. 

Not sure it’s ever going to happen for our Sox. We’re going to have to be a team that catches lightning in a bottle every 20 or so years. We can’t get big time FAs, and out front office / scouting isn’t as good as the big dogs who know how to rebuild.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Ross Gload Fan said:

I was just about to say this. Kopech can still be an ace, I really like what I see from Lopez (coaching and conditioning could help), Robert is still getting used to things and getting over nagging dumb injuries. The talent is there and just needs more time. I think the true fans respect and see this. It's  the people who dont make it their life to know about this that are blind to see it.

I agree, and I still think Moncada can be a star and Giolito can be anywhere from an ace to a #3 if they put it all together. I haven't closed the book on either guy personally. (admittedly, I still might be the most optimistic on Giolito) I can't deny Giolito's been god awful at the MLB level so far but so was Roy Halladay at the beginning of his career. He didn't figure it out until age 25-26. 

I'm not saying the Sox don't have incredibly talented players, because they do, but their entire strategy was to grab Boom/Bust guys and so far they've completely struck out. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[NotHahn]

To look at this from a glass half full prospective. Manny and his wife get to spend Christmas and New Years with Yonder and his wife. So maybe Yonder keeps the White Sox pitch going and talk more about a future on the South Side. Don't undervalue a comfortable family situation.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Well this board has gone completely doom and gloom tonight, has the grinch come out and stole everyone’s Christmas already? Are we destined for failure if we don’t overpay for Machado or Harper?

Baseball is a long game, one season does not define the career of a prospect. If this team is making you that depressed, you should step away from this board and come back in a year (Parkman you seriously never have anything positive to write about).

This season hasn’t been great in terms of the player development, but there are positives and that constantly being overlooked - Cease went from a destined bullpen guy to a TOR type pitcher, Rutherford bounced back decently from an awful first year, guys like Basabe, Adolfo, and Dunning (amongst others) showing significant improvements. Eloy was actually more impressive this year than last, but I guess people are tired of placing hope on him already. Injury bug bit us pretty bad, but that shouldn’t stop the kids from bouncing back next season when health (with maybe only Burger having long term impact from injury). The only top prospect you could really write off right now is Fulmer.

On the ML side Moncada and Giolito has shown signs of being quality MLB players, even though they may not be perennial all stars and they should still be MLB regulars cost controlled for the next 5 years. Lopez at least looks like a solid future #3.

I think had injuries not hit, this season would be in line with how player development would play out for most organizations save the Braves. It’s not all doom and gloom as guys are making it seem after losing hope on MM and Harper.

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

40 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't disagree with you, which is why I believe the window will be short and shut quickly if it works. Think Royals instead of Cubs/Astros. It will be like a great comet. 

You do realize the Royals went to the World Series back to back in 2014 & 2015? I'll gladly take that.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

48 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't know what your definition of a blue chip prospect is, but to me the guy has to be at least a 60 FV to be a blue chipper. Eloy is the only guy the Sox have that currently has that type of rating. 

Top 50 is usually what I consider a blue chip prospect, but just going off your definition of 60FV+, how many teams even have one of those? Or multiple? 

No reason to panic.

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

You do realize the Royals went to the World Series back to back in 2014 & 2015? I'll gladly take that.

Absolutely, if it works I think that is the best case scenario at this point. The Sox still have a couple top 5 draft picks coming in 2019 and 2020 so it isn't out of the question they hit a HR there and extend the window past that. I'm not expecting anything out of this team until 2021 at the earliest. 

However, the Royals window slammed shut after 2016 though and 2014 was the first year it really opened. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Top 50 is usually what I consider a blue chip prospect, but just going off your definition of 60FV+, how many teams even have one of those? Or multiple? 

No reason to panic.

Yeah not every team has one. They are rare across baseball, IMO. 

T50 isn't a blue chipper, top 10-15 is. 

A blue chip prospect that didn't turn out would be near the top of every all-time prospect bust list. 

 Delmon Young, Maybe Buxton if he doesn't figure it out, those type of guys. 

With the Sox, the reason to panic is also reason for optimism. 

How many teams have had 4 players that at at the time of MLB debut were rated 60+ FV? The Sox will have had 3 players make their team debut with a FV of 65. (Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and Kopech was a 60. That is almost unheard of. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah not every team has one. They are rare across baseball, IMO. 

T50 isn't a blue chipper, top 10-15 is. 

A blue chip prospect that didn't turn out would be near the top of every all-time prospect bust list. 

 Delmon Young, Maybe Buxton if he doesn't figure it out, those type of guys. 

Feel free to use what symantics you want to, but my point still stands. Sox have a bunch of "very good" prospects still on their way. The cavalry is just beginning

[Flash]

22 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Well this board has gone completely doom and gloom tonight, has the grinch come out and stole everyone’s Christmas already? Are we destined for failure if we don’t overpay for Machado or Harper?

Baseball is a long game, one season does not define the career of a prospect. If this team is making you that depressed, you should step away from this board and come back in a year (Parkman you seriously never have anything positive to write about).

This season hasn’t been great in terms of the player development, but there are positives and that constantly being overlooked - Cease went from a destined bullpen guy to a TOR type pitcher, Rutherford bounced back decently from an awful first year, guys like Basabe, Adolfo, and Dunning (amongst others) showing significant improvements. Eloy was actually more impressive this year than last, but I guess people are tired of placing hope on him already. Injury bug bit us pretty bad, but that shouldn’t stop the kids from bouncing back next season when health (with maybe only Burger having long term impact from injury). The only top prospect you could really write off right now is Fulmer.

On the ML side Moncada and Giolito has shown signs of being quality MLB players, even though they may not be perennial all stars and they should still be MLB regulars cost controlled for the next 5 years. Lopez at least looks like a solid future #3.

I think had injuries not hit, this season would be in line with how player development would play out for most organizations save the Braves. It’s not all doom and gloom as guys are making it seem after losing hope on MM and Harper.

 

Generally agree except the part about Moncada and Giolito being quality MLB players. As the two highest profile rebuilding additions, they have both disappointed and, despite the sentiments of many on this board, neither inspire reason to be optimistic. 

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Flash said:

Generally agree except the part about Moncada and Giolito being quality MLB players. As the two highest profile rebuilding additions, they have both disappointed and, despite the sentiments of many on this board, neither inspire reason to be optimistic. 

Yoan you see the tools to absolutely dream about.  Giolito looks like someone that would struggle in AAA.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Flash said:

Generally agree except the part about Moncada and Giolito being quality MLB players. As the two highest profile rebuilding additions, they have both disappointed and, despite the sentiments of many on this board, neither inspire reason to be optimistic. 

Moncada probaly has top 5 tools in all of baseball and a great eye, so plenty of reason to be optimistic with him despite struggling some as a 23 year old.

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Yoan you see the tools to absolutely dream about.  Giolito looks like someone that would struggle in AAA.

Do you guys remember Daniel Cabrera from the O's? That is how I'd describe Giolito right now....like a young Daniel Cabrera. Gio doesn't throw as hard but mid 90s with wicked movement is still really good. Breaking stuff is excellent. If he ever learns to harness his stuff you can absloutely see an ace there. His command and control (or lack thereof) is what is holding him back at this point, as we found through the course of this season that his diminished stuff was completely related to his mechanics being out of whack, leading to flying open. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Do you guys remember Daniel Cabrera from the O's? That is how I'd describe Giolito right now....like a young Daniel Cabrera. Gio doesn't throw as hard but mid 90s with wicked movement is still really good. Breaking stuff is excellent. If he ever learns to harness his stuff you can absloutely see an ace there. His command and control (or lack thereof) is what is holding him back at this point, as we found through the course of this season that his diminished stuff was completely related to his mechanics being out of whack, leading to flying open. 

I don’t see ace upside with Giolito, but maybe a quality #3 starter with a few more ticks and more consistent command.

[shago]

2 hours ago, BigHurt3515 said:

If Machado goes to NYY and Harper goes to LAD, is there any hope for smaller teams and smaller market teams to ever get the big fish? White Sox are a big city team but are 2nd rate to the baseball community and the Phillies are in a similar boat. Both had all the money to offer the best contract to each player. I can't imagine there will be better circumstances for a team like the White Sox, Phillies, Padres, etc to sign one of these players. I feel like this is just bad for baseball

These two guys really are different, the top two egos in all of baseball ... both want to be in big, showtime markets. Teams like Sox can get real free agents, but not these two clowns (thankfully) ... 

While Chicago is the best city in the country, it’s not big pimpin’ media like NY or LA. White Sox brought into the mix because their mgmt wanted to be there to ‘excite’ the fanbase that they’re in next phase of rebuild and agents wanted them there to drive prices under the credible ploy of new tv contract in Chicago market and a small payroll. No intention of them getting either. Still two years from real contention, even if some prospects start playing ... Call me a cynic?

#AJpartII #MooseKAKis

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t see ace upside with Giolito, but maybe a quality #3 starter with a few more ticks and more consistent command.

Gavin Floyd 2.0 - with probably a little less upside. He was awful and it took a while for him to be a valuable rotation arm.

[thxfrthmmrs]

46 minutes ago, Flash said:

Generally agree except the part about Moncada and Giolito being quality MLB players. As the two highest profile rebuilding additions, they have both disappointed and, despite the sentiments of many on this board, neither inspire reason to be optimistic. 

They’re both not finished products and have shown flashes of their potential. When it’s all said and done they could still be very good players. And I don’t think anyone considers Giolito to be higher profile or more critical addition than Eloy, Kopech or Robert.

[joejoesox]

2 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Well this board has gone completely doom and gloom tonight, has the grinch come out and stole everyone’s Christmas already? Are we destined for failure if we don’t overpay for Machado or Harper?

Baseball is a long game, one season does not define the career of a prospect. If this team is making you that depressed, you should step away from this board and come back in a year (Parkman you seriously never have anything positive to write about).

This season hasn’t been great in terms of the player development, but there are positives and that constantly being overlooked - Cease went from a destined bullpen guy to a TOR type pitcher, Rutherford bounced back decently from an awful first year, guys like Basabe, Adolfo, and Dunning (amongst others) showing significant improvements. Eloy was actually more impressive this year than last, but I guess people are tired of placing hope on him already. Injury bug bit us pretty bad, but that shouldn’t stop the kids from bouncing back next season when health (with maybe only Burger having long term impact from injury). The only top prospect you could really write off right now is Fulmer.

On the ML side Moncada and Giolito has shown signs of being quality MLB players, even though they may not be perennial all stars and they should still be MLB regulars cost controlled for the next 5 years. Lopez at least looks like a solid future #3.

I think had injuries not hit, this season would be in line with how player development would play out for most organizations save the Braves. It’s not all doom and gloom as guys are making it seem after losing hope on MM and Harper.

 

Sox Free Agency Eulogy 

[Orlando]

How likely is it that Eloy out performs Harper?

[greg775]

1 hour ago, shago said:

These two guys really are different, the top two egos in all of baseball ... both want to be in big, showtime markets. Teams like Sox can get real free agents, but not these two clowns (thankfully) ... 

I agree. These two are different. Once the Sox get good again, we will be a destination for top free agents. I think if Eloy stays healthy he's for real and Moncada and Tim are special young talents. We also have some pitching that is probably going to click at some point and we are gonna start winning and we'll get free agents. The Sox will be popular again. 

[Flash Tizzle]

2 hours ago, Special K said:

What seems different about the Sox rebuild (and sucks) is that they haven’t had a breakout prospect... I expect Eloy to be that, but until that happens, everything with the rebuild has been a massive disappointment.

Moncada, Giolito, Burger, Kopech, Adolfo, Fulmer, Collins, Robert... all disappointing in some degree whether injuries or poor play. These are supposed to be the “core pieces”

now look at all the other rebuilding teams, they’ve all had breakout stars... see Cubs, Braves, Astro’s, etc. 

Not sure it’s ever going to happen for our Sox. We’re going to have to be a team that catches lightning in a bottle every 20 or so years. We can’t get big time FAs, and out front office / scouting isn’t as good as the big dogs who know how to rebuild.

Having that player who experiences immediate success would be such a jolt for the rebuild. We can’t expect a timeline for sustained success (which is the point of this whole rebuild) if Gio/Moncada don’t take immediate steps forward and Cease/Jiminez don’t immediately produce. At some point, it’ll all have to come together. Every promoted player can’t have a 3-4 year learning curve. 

Honestly, if we can’t get Harper or Machado, I’d rather just go through another 100+ loss season. That’ll be the only way we’ll get a player comparable to either of those two. Are we going to accept the pre 2017 method of roster construction with 1-2 year deals on second, third tier talent? If thats part of “the plan” then I’d rather lose and watch player development

 

[Flash Tizzle]

11 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I agree. These two are different. Once the Sox get good again, we will be a destination for top free agents. I think if Eloy stays healthy he's for real and Moncada and Tim are special young talents. We also have some pitching that is probably going to click at some point and we are gonna start winning and we'll get free agents. The Sox will be popular again. 

Again, chicken/egg scenario. How can we get good without help from QUALITY free agents?  

[fathom]

Time for the Sox to change the narrative, as who says they don't get media coverage?

 

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said:

Again, chicken/egg scenario. How can we get good without help from QUALITY free agents?  

Then Rick Hahn needs to be 100% perfect with his player selection and development, and we absolutely can't afford anything like last year's debacles. And health no longer can be an excuse.