Machado: Update - Manny, do you officially like us?

[Special K]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I would call it a classic Rick Hahn special. 

Exactly. A rebuild on the fly again.  It would be trash. 

 

If we dont land ine one of the whales, I’ll be much happier with Hahn if we stand pat and don’t make a move and just stay the course of acquiring talent. Anything else would look like panic.

[Flash Tizzle]

2 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

Not that I want this to happen, but let's say the Sox miss on both Harper and Machado but sign Pollock to play CF and Moustakas to play 3B, both on 3 or 4 year deals. How would you guys react to that?  

I’d react with annoyance. Does that put us into a position to win a championship, or barely break .500?

I’d honestly rather lose another 100 games. 

[iamshack]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I would applaud them for landing either of them as they would have successfully put together a plan to create available funds during the big year for free agents and then successfully came forward, understood the market, and used their resources as best they could. I would consider it a major accomplishment.

I would consider failing to land either of them to be yet another on the list of reasons to think we have the worst front office in baseball. To clear space for elite free agents and then declare that you're going after elite free agents and in the end be stuck unable to sign elite free agents...that should be just plain embarrassing. 

See, they have accomplished some of the things you would applaud them for in your first paragraph already. They have created the payroll space, they have clearly understood the market, and they are attempting to use their resources in an aggressive, yet responsible way. 

What if actually landing the player(s) required using their resources in an irresponsible fashion? Would you still consider it “embarrassing” if they failed to land the player(s) if that was the case?

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

I have the same question. But Morosi is one of the major guys. People have bought his stuff all offseason. 

The only thing that might make sense is if they signed Harper, there would be no need for Alonso since they would slide Palka to DH. 

I would imagine Alonso would be in the deal. Jerry D gets to make another trade and saves a little coin. But it still doesn’t make much sense to me from a White asox perspective, and now you have to count on Harper. And he he went somewhere else......

Well there you go....a perfectly reasonable explanation for why we may be making a call and seeing what the market for EE looks like.  Doesn’t mean we’re actively pursuing him, but doing some diligence in the event our plans move in a different direction.

[GreenSox]

2 minutes ago, iamshack said:

We need to allow the plan to play out, and not bail because Lucas Giolito or Yoan Moncada are a bit frustrating in their first full seasons. 

I think that's what most people want.  Don't see a lot of upvoting of the rumored Enarnacion interest or other short term fantasy-land moves.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

Not that I want this to happen, but let's say the Sox miss on both Harper and Machado but sign Pollock to play CF and Moustakas to play 3B, both on 3 or 4 year deals. How would you guys react to that?  

I’d be absolutely enraged, but that’s just me.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, iamshack said:

I don’t really care what 95% of fans care about. 

Rick and Kenny should have the opportunity to see through what they are building. If you didn’t believe that, you should have fired them and brought in someone else to dismantle the mlb team after the ‘16 season. 

Nearly everything they’ve done since the Chris Sale trade has been to put this franchise in a position to sustainably compete, and despite some of the early returns on those moves being frustrating, if you look at the Astros and Cubs rebuilds, it was never about the success of a few guys, but instead, the success of the plan. 

We need to allow the plan to play out, and not bail because Lucas Giolito or Yoan Moncada are a bit frustrating in their first full seasons. 

It’s a lot bigger than just Moncada and Giolito, but there’s no point to rehash half the roster.

An important note here, the Astros STILL managed to have one of the five most improved farm systems this year in the middle of building a juggernaut.  The Cubs, not so much.   The same thing happened in Boston after the first two WS titles for Epstein.   Too many big, bloated contracts.   Veterans, complacency, Chicken Gate.

Btw, that’s one thing the Astros and Dodgers are getting out of the business of offering, albatross dead weight franchise-stalling deals.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Well there you go....a perfectly reasonable explanation for why we may be making a call and seeing what the market for EE looks like.  Doesn’t mean we’re actively pursuing him, but doing some diligence in the event our plans move in a different direction.

But it does suggest the Sox are out on Machado.

[Balta1701]

Just now, iamshack said:

See, they have accomplished some of the things you would applaud them for in your first paragraph already. They have created the payroll space, they have clearly understood the market, and they are attempting to use their resources in an aggressive, yet responsible way. 

What if actually landing the player(s) required using their resources in an irresponsible fashion? Would you still consider it “embarrassing” if they failed to land the player(s) if that was the case?

How do you define irresponsible? Is it the difference between paying $350 million for a player over 10 years or $400 million for that player? Or $425? I don't define that extra $7.25 million per year as irresponsible, I define that as less than the value of one Alex Colome or Ivan Nova or Yonder Alonso. I would define having a limit too low to actually sign one of these guys, and instead being stuck in the middle part of the free agent market forever as being far less responsible. 

The Free Agent market is inherently irresponsible, but if we're going to be on it - the one area where we haven't tried and failed is the absolute top of the market. We set ourselves up to be players there...to dip our toes in the water and then run away in panic to go back to what we already know does not work...that would be the least responsible thing we can do.

[iamshack]

1 minute ago, GreenSox said:

I think that's what most people want.  Don't see a lot of upvoting of the rumored Enarnacion interest or other short term fantasy-land moves.

No, but there is a narrative which continues to push for Hahn and KW to be fired mid-rebuild. 

Whether you agree with it or not, it’s foolhardy to allow someone to complete some of the most significant transactions in your history and then not allow them to reconstruct the organization because there are some very customary bumps in the road. 

[Bob Sacamano]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Sure, but the one Venezuelan connection we got out of Ozzie Guillen over the years was Freddy Garcia.

It’s a nice theory, but we’ll see how it all holds together when/if they dump Abreu.  If this angle was THAT overwhelming, we’d have at least a legit 50/50 shot with Machado because of Renteria, Vizquel, Alonso, Castillo, Colome and perhaps the 2nd most Latin American talent of any organization in MLB besides the Padres.

What the fuck are you even talking about anymore? We traded for Freddy Garcia. What does that have to do with signing an amateur free agent (Luis Robert).

Edited December 29, 2018 by soxfan2014

[iamshack]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

How do you define irresponsible? Is it the difference between paying $350 million for a player over 10 years or $400 million for that player? Or $425? I don't define that extra $7.25 million per year as irresponsible, I define that as less than the value of one Alex Colome or Ivan Nova or Yonder Alonso. I would define having a limit too low to actually sign one of these guys, and instead being stuck in the middle part of the free agent market forever as being far less responsible. 

The Free Agent market is inherently irresponsible, but if we're going to be on it - the one area where we haven't tried and failed is the absolute top of the market. We set ourselves up to be players there...to dip our toes in the water and then run away in panic to go back to what we already know does not work...that would be the least responsible thing we can do.

I actually tend to agree with you on most of this. 

From what I understand, we are not doing any of what you describe in the second paragraph. 

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, iamshack said:

I don’t really care what 95% of fans care about. 

Rick and Kenny should have the opportunity to see through what they are building. If you didn’t believe that, you should have fired them and brought in someone else to dismantle the mlb team after the ‘16 season. 

Nearly everything they’ve done since the Chris Sale trade has been to put this franchise in a position to sustainably compete, and despite some of the early returns on those moves being frustrating, if you look at the Astros and Cubs rebuilds, it was never about the success of a few guys, but instead, the success of the plan. 

We need to allow the plan to play out, and not bail because Lucas Giolito or Yoan Moncada are a bit frustrating in their first full seasons. 

This has been the best post in a long time.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

What the fuck are you even talking about anymore? We traded for Freddy Garcia.

Yes, and why did he agree to sign the extension in the days following that trade, instead of seeking a long-term extension in free agency?   Without that family relationship, no trade...because Garcia would have ended up leaving just like Machado had we traded for him in 2018 or even the prior offseason.

Wikipedia is your friend.

Edited December 29, 2018 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

But it does suggest the Sox are out on Machado.

No, it suggests they’re doing their diligence in case things don’t work out.

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

Not that I want this to happen, but let's say the Sox miss on both Harper and Machado but sign Pollock to play CF and Moustakas to play 3B, both on 3 or 4 year deals. How would you guys react to that?  

I said from Day 1 this winter that we either need to land whales or stay the course.  Past MM and BH, I hate the idea of guys who either aren't temp fillers, or guy who won't be on our next playoff team.  Pollack and Moostaskis would be mistakes.

[TheFutureIsNear]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I would applaud them for landing either of them as they would have successfully put together a plan to create available funds during the big year for free agents and then successfully came forward, understood the market, and used their resources as best they could. I would consider it a major accomplishment.

I would consider failing to land either of them to be yet another on the list of reasons to think we have the worst front office in baseball. To clear space for elite free agents and then declare that you're going after elite free agents and in the end be stuck unable to sign elite free agents...that should be just plain embarrassing. 

I know it’s not a popular opinion, but I don’t either ever really seriously considered the Sox. Don’t get me wrong, that’s ultimately Hahn/KW’s fault because they built this team into the undesirable destination that it is at the moment. But I don’t think the necessary funds available was ever enough for Harper or Manny. 

 

Everyone else is looking at the Alonso deal like it’s some genius move to get Manny. To me it’s a bad front office continuing to be bad thinking they can supplement with mediocre talent like Alonso/Nova/McCann...and I expect another bad move or 2 and the front office trying to sell the roster as a playoff team. We’ll see....

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Yes, and why did he agree to sign the extension in the days following that trade, instead of seeking a long-term extension in free agency?   Without that family relationship, no trade...because Garcia would have ended up leaving just like Machado had we traded for him in 2018 or even the prior offseason.

Wikipedia is your friend.

Wikipedia is your main source of knowledge? Yikes.

[iamshack]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

But it does suggest the Sox are out on Machado.

How do you know it doesn’t mean Lozano is trying to push up their number/years?

Let’s say hypothetically the Yankees are unwilling to make a competitive offer, and Machado doesn’t have a particular interest in playing for Philadelphia. 

What is Dan Lozano going to do?

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, iamshack said:

I actually tend to agree with you on most of this. 

From what I understand, we are not doing any of what you describe in the second paragraph. 

As I said, I'll judge the results once they're official. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You are not being accurate. I am just pointing out several reasons why there could be delays, especially this time of the year.

But literally none of the things you pointed out prevents media outlets reporting Machado and Yankees has deal in place, physicals and press conferences both happens at a later time. You are not willing to acknolwege the most likely scenario, that Machado isn’t going to give any team the confirmation until after the New Years and that Clark was just jumping the gun based on what he heard (which could have a different agenda).

[JoshPR]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This has been the best post in a long time.

Agreed

[caulfield12]

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

Wikipedia is your main source of knowledge? Yikes.

I’m guessing you were probably a teenager (or younger) in 2004 and don’t recall how we got Contreras and Garcia...

[GreenSox]

2 minutes ago, iamshack said:

No, but there is a narrative which continues to push for Hahn and KW to be fired mid-rebuild. 

Whether you agree with it or not, it’s foolhardy to allow someone to complete some of the most significant transactions in your history and then not allow them to reconstruct the organization because there are some very customary bumps in the road. 

Tearing down and rebuilding are 2 distinct tasks.  Ed Wade conducted much of the Astros tear-down; Luhnow rebuilt them.
Hahn's tear down was satisfactory. 
But I saw how he rebuilt from 2014-2016; his moves in this rebuild, minor so far as they may be, are of similar philosophy.  Still behind in analytics.   We'll see.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I’m guessing you were probably a teenager (or younger) in 2004 and don’t recall how we got Contreras and Garcia...

Oh I remember. I was actually at the Sox Cubs game that day Olivo hit a bomb off I believe Maddux and he was having a good game overall only to be taken out half way through the game (dealt mid-game for Freddy Garcia). I was 13 at the time. 

Just don't see how that is relevant to signing an amateur free agent.

Edited December 29, 2018 by soxfan2014