Machado: Update - Manny, do you officially like us?

[Chicago White Sox]

30 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

If this FO is acting like they didn’t know they would have to do this they need to be let go immediately (I know Reinsdorf won’t do it) but this kind of thinking is ridiculous from an FO with no playoffs in a decade+

Trust me Truth, I’m in full agreement that we need to do whatever it takes to land a whale.  And I do they believe they’re willing to offer a record breaking contract, I’m just concerned in the case of Machado they won’t make a Godfather type offer and will instead just assume 10/$325M is way better than 8/$280M.  We’re entering unprecedented territory for the franchise so who really knows though.

[Chicago White Sox]

29 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It depends what type of budget JR is permitting. Assuming it’s $150MM or less, I think it’s insane to tie up more than 25% of your total payroll in one player. I just mentioned in the post above but I envision a trade or two for an established starting pitcher. Also, they need to address the catching position at some point soon. I don’t know what options are available but I don’t have confidence that any of the guys currently in the organization will be average to above average starters two years from now.

I think is realistically our floor once our new TV deal goes into effect.  We have zero long-term commitments, so filling the two holes you mentioned can still be done while adding a whale.

[Chicago White Sox]

23 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Xander Bogaerts would look great in a White Sox uniform in 2020. What type of salary is he expected to command next winter? I can’t imagine it would be anywhere near Machado and he’s the same age as Machado but they wouldn’t have to “waste” a year paying him in 2019.

I’m guessing it won’t be that much less TBH.

[Chicago White Sox]

22 minutes ago, Flash said:

Maybe this was touched on but if Yankees prevail with Machado, would it make sense to offer Alonso to them? Guessing he might bring a decent return, especially if Manny makes a case for him.

The Yankees are not giving up anything decent for Alonso, especially once they have already landed Machado.

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Trust me Truth, I’m in full agreement that we need to do whatever it takes to land a whale.  And I do they believe they’re willing to offer a record breaking contract, I’m just concerned in the case of Machado they won’t make a Godfather type offer and will instead just assume 10/$325M is way better than 8/$280M.  We’re entering unprecedented territory for the franchise so who really knows though.

Hopefully NU, Michigan, Harvard and Stanford teach critical thinking skills which would empower Hahn and KW not to be so easily bamboozled.  

He’s supposed to be the king of contracts and finance, right?

Edited December 31, 2018 by caulfield12

[FT35]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d be so pissed if the Sox signed him for $40M+ AAV over 8 years. That’s “stupid” money and would be a huge mistake for a franchise like the Sox imo.

I’m kinda with you.  Here’s what I think.  $40M/year is stupid in terms of risk.  If Machado somehow bombs, the Yankees are much better equipped to absorb that risk.  Not saying he will bomb—just not the best business decision for us to put our own backs against the wall.

Honestly—these guys are studs, but I think there are better baseball decisions out there and I think there are better baseball PLAYERS out there.  If we miss on these guys, it will be heartbreaking for those of us needing hope in a faster rebuild...but $40M/year could buy you Arenado (who would rake in our stadium too) + another dominant bullpen piece or even a mid-rotation starter.  They would have to overpay in an Arenado trade possibly this year—then resign him.  But if they put as much into getting that done as they did going for Harper/Machado, they might just get a deal done.

Admittingly, that plan would cost prospects AND money as opposed to just money...but it might be surplus prospects who are dealt and a LOT of money saved.  

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m guessing it won’t be that much less TBH.

Really? Maybe I’m way off but I was thinking he’d get $25MM AAV max.

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, FT35 said:

I’m kinda with you.  Here’s what I think.  $40M/year is stupid in terms of risk.  If Machado somehow bombs, the Yankees are much better equipped to absorb that risk.  Not saying he will bomb—just not the best business decision for us to put our own backs against the wall.

Honestly—these guys are studs, but I think there are better baseball decisions out there and I think there are better baseball PLAYERS out there.  If we miss on these guys, it will be heartbreaking for those of us needing hope in a faster rebuild...but $40M/year could buy you Arenado (who would rake in our stadium too) + another dominant bullpen piece or even a mid-rotation starter.  They would have to overpay in an Arenado trade possibly this year—then resign him.  But if they put as much into getting that done as they did going for Harper/Machado, they might just get a deal done.

Admittingly, that plan would cost prospects AND money as opposed to just money...but it might be surplus prospects who are dealt and a LOT of money saved.  

We’re going to end up spending X amount of money on Colome, Castillo and Alonso (even if we dump all three at some point)...that could have been earmarked for Arenado.   Of course, if the rebuild still isn’t progressing in 2019 or Kopech has a setback of some sort, then trading precious resources in-season for Arenado against playoff contenders who desperately are vying for his services (say, Milwaukee) will make even less sense.  

And they’re not going to deal him in the offseason, that would be a Pirates “spitting in the face of your fans” type of move.  Unless they want to publicly announce the numbers he turned down for an extension and harm their own negotiating position (see Harper/Nationals), basically acknowledging they have to trade him and creating an uncomfortable situation for everyone.

[Dick Allen]

9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What else do you supposed doing with this money?

Spend it on players not as good.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Spend it on players not as good.

Or on guys that don’t charge a 25% tariff on an already record breaking deal to play for the Sox because their boyhood dream was to play for NYY...

[Dick Allen]

57 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Or on guys that don’t charge a 25% tariff on an already record breaking deal to play for the Sox because their boyhood dream was to play for NYY...

So what. The White Sox have to break the ice or be the franchise they always have been. Maybe someday, some player will actually want to play for the White Sox instead of one of the other teams that are always interesting. You aren't going to have sustained success without gigantic payrolls. And we aren't signing the checks.

So you either want the Sox to break the bank and sign one of these guys or think the way they have gone about being "all in" is satisfactory. Peaking at 78 wins sucks for me. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Dick Allen

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

So what. The White Sox have to break the ice or be the franchise they always have been. Maybe someday, some player will actually want to play for the White Sox instead of one of the other teams that are always interesting. You aren't going to have sustained success without gigantic payrolls. And we aren't signing the checks.

So you either want the Sox to break the bank and sign one of these guys or think the way they have gone about being "all in" is satisfactory. Peaking at 78 wins sucks for me. 

The Astros have had sustained success without gigantic payrolls. Just sayin.

[Dick Allen]

12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Astros have had sustained success without gigantic payrolls. Just sayin.

You can say that, but they have finished in first place twice.  And espn had them with the 3rd highest payroll in baseball.  And it is only going higher.

[Harry Chappas]

21 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Astros have had sustained success without gigantic payrolls. Just sayin.

Houston and the Cubs torn down their entire organization and rebuilt it from rookie ball to the MLB bringing in new theroies on how to run an organization.

The Sox took a failing model traded away veterans and now they have to hit on all those guys.

There were a couple of window dressing moves like Getz but the failing ideals and practices of the last 10 years remain in place.

I have always been of the mindset that they are half assing this rebuild standing behind loyalty and old school thinking.  This organization is now the Bulls with zero creativity or advanced thinking as well as engaging front office staff that can advance an organization. 

Instead of just taking on shields contract they gave away a lottery ticket that hit big.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Harry Chappas

[Dick Allen]

The Sox have to dare to be different. Try something new. Do whatever it takes to sign one of these guys. Bill Veeck said that paying stars wouldn't kill you, it was paying for mediocrity, which seems to have been a White Sox staple for years. 

[Chicago White Sox]

27 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Astros have had sustained success without gigantic payrolls. Just sayin.

If you’re trying to emulate the Astros with our front office in place and without the same analytics infrastructure we are completely fucked IMO.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

49 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Houston and the Cubs torn down their entire organization and rebuilt it from rookie ball to the MLB bringing in new theroies on how to run an organization.

The Sox took a failing model traded away veterans and now they have to hit on all those guys.

There were a couple of window dressing moves like Getz but the failing ideals and practices of the last 10 years remain in place.

I have always been of the mindset that they are half assing this rebuild standing behind loyalty and old school thinking.  This organization is now the Bulls with zero creativity or advanced thinking as well as engaging front office staff that can advance an organization. 

Instead of just taking on shields contract they gave away a lottery ticket that hit big.

If this is true, then it won’t matter if they sign Manny and/or Harper.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

53 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You can say that, but they have finished in first place twice.  And espn had them with the 3rd highest payroll in baseball.  And it is only going higher.

3rd highest payroll in 2019? Espn might want to double check those numbers...

And the Astros have won 84 or more games in 4 straight seasons (5 after the 2019 season) including a World Series win and another ALCS appearance. What is your definition of sustained success? 

Unless Jerry is willing to consistently spend with the top 5 teams in baseball, the best they’re going to do is a 5/6 year run like the Astros.

[Rooftop Shots]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Astros have had sustained success without gigantic payrolls. Just sayin.

The Astros have also had success with player development  as to why they were able to accomplish that. As someone else once mentioned on the board, ..........besides starting pitching,  what track record do The Sox have in positional / hitting players   besides  Thomas, Crede, Vetura, (just o name a few)  within the past 25 years that have turned into bonafide STARS?? Even now,,,  sure we have a boatload of talent.....................but we still haven't PROVEN to ANYBODY  that we can mold them into being success full MLB  threats.  Example... Astros...Bregman  INSTANT star.  Braves,,Ocunia  Instant start.  ( I could go on to many more)  That's only to name a couple .  All we heard  about is Moncada.......#1 prospect..........STILL WAITING................and KEEP hearing on things that STILL need to be worked on. How it flusters me of how we hear other organizations that have big names  coming up...and they become Just that . BIG names that live up to the hype. Then we look at our track record history. UGHHHHH.   Until this organization can PROVE to everyone that what we have waiting in the wings is LEGIT.......then who the heck  would want to sign with us when we have a history  of not being able to PROVE  anything??    Seems our organization either cant scout or develop into MLB  stars.......without some new excuse of being too young or STILL having to work on something and develop. Because  of what i mentioned above....I REALLY do believe  that is we get Harp or Mach,    it;s only because we are the fallout plan because of where they originally were HOPING  to go....fell through and didn't pan out as they had hoped. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

48 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

If you’re trying to emulate the Astros with our front office in place and without the same analytics infrastructure we are completely fucked IMO.

Well, another couple years of top 5 draft picks and a farm system ranked in the top 3 for several consecutive years will just have to overcome the ineptitude of the front office I suppose. Much like the Royals did a few years back. After awhile you accumulate so many highly regarded prospects and high draft picks that it doesn’t matter the front office isn’t run by Luhnow. Now whether they can sustain more than a 3 year run like the Royals did is a different question altogether. But again I’d be thrilled if this rebuild results in back to back World Series appearances and a World Series title within the next 6 or 7 years. That would be a major win.

[Rooftop Shots]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

So what. The White Sox have to break the ice or be the franchise they always have been. Maybe someday, some player will actually want to play for the White Sox instead of one of the other teams that are always interesting. You aren't going to have sustained success without gigantic payrolls. And we aren't signing the checks.

So you either want the Sox to break the bank and sign one of these guys or think the way they have gone about being "all in" is satisfactory. Peaking at 78 wins sucks for me. 

couldn't have said it any better

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Rooftop Shots said:

The Astros have also had success with player development  as to why they were able to accomplish that. As someone else once mentioned on the board, ..........besides starting pitching,  what track record do The Sox have in positional / hitting players   besides  Thomas, Crede, Vetura, (just o name a few)  within the past 25 years that have turned into bonafide STARS?? Even now,,,  sure we have a boatload of talent.....................but we still haven't PROVEN to ANYBODY  that we can mold them into being success full MLB  threats.  Example... Astros...Bregman  INSTANT star.  Braves,,Ocunia  Instant start.  ( I could go on to many more)  That's only to name a couple .  All we heard  about is Moncada.......#1 prospect..........STILL WAITING................and KEEP hearing on things that STILL need to be worked on. How it flusters me of how we hear other organizations that have big names  coming up...and they become Just that . BIG names that live up to the hype. Then we look at our track record history. UGHHHHH.   Until this organization can PROVE to everyone that what we have waiting in the wings is LEGIT.......then who the heck  would want to sign with us when we have a history  of not being able to PROVE  anything??    Seems our organization either cant scout or develop into MLB  stars.......without some new excuse of being too young or STILL having to work on something and develop. Because  of what i mentioned above....I REALLY do believe  that is we get Harp or Mach,    it;s only because we are the fallout plan because of where they originally were HOPING  to go....fell through and didn't pan out as they had hoped. 

Again, if true, won’t matter if they sign Manny and/or Harper if all the prospects flop.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Well, another couple years of top 5 draft picks and a farm system ranked in the top 3 for several consecutive years will just have to overcome the ineptitude of the front office I suppose. Much like the Royals did a few years back. After awhile you accumulate so many highly regarded prospects and high draft picks that it doesn’t matter the front office isn’t run by Luhnow. Now whether they can sustain more than a 3 year run like the Royals did is a different question altogether. But again I’d be thrilled if this rebuild results in back to back World Series appearances and a World Series title within the next 6 or 7 years. That would be a major win.

Then you’re suggesting a 10 year rebuild, which is not only insanity but would also destroy what little remaining interest our fanbase has in the team.  And the reason for this?  All because you’re scared to spend some money on a big name player.  I honestly can’t comprehend this line of thinking.

[he gone.]

12 hours ago, Flash said:

Maybe this was touched on but if Yankees prevail with Machado, would it make sense to offer Alonso to them? Guessing he might bring a decent return, especially if Manny makes a case for him.

We gave up Alex Call for Alonso..... the Yanks have no need for Alonso ... he would be cut-bait, release material on the Yankees. And the Yankees don't have to pull stunts to get players ... they win.

Alonso was a desperate move, by one of the worst franchises in MLB history with a cheap owner and in a poor run front office. It was a $9mm roll of the dice (maybe $18mm) for a player that will bring nothing than "leadership" (our FO favorite buzz word) in a landscape where $9mm can net you a bunch of better pieces in FA.

$9mm (+$2.5mm on McCann) could have bought you:

Matt Shoemaker, Erasmo Ramirez, Justin Bour, Jung Ho Kang, and Lucroy.

Alonso and McCann have no trade value. absolutely ZERO upside for the future of the franchise. They are place holders. Alonso has that option that zaps any chance of him being traded and McCann is DFA material. At least the list above would have filled some voids (Kang at 3b, Bour wouldn't fill al need, but hes a hell of a lot better than Alonso, Lucroy has 25X potential of bringing back some mid-level prospect over McCann, Shoemaker could have been a nice #5 for 100IP, and Erasmo could fill the swing role of Hector Santiago -- and they're all ONE year options) I'm not saying any of those guys are great or even good, however the way we allocate money in the offseason is pathetic. Don't sell me on leadership. It's a desperate move that we attempted because we're reduced to being clown barkers bringing in brothers of FA we want to sign. It's more sad than anything. It's the equivalent of sending Benny the Bull to O'Hare...  and why? Cause we know the rebuild is doing terribly thus far. Name who from this roster is on this 2021 or 2022 roster that we HOPE competes for something...

Reynaldo Lopez as a #4? Tim Anderson ... probably Yoan as some sort of piece? Anybody else? 3 spots filled. 22 to go. If I'm Machado I'm not going to a franchise for TEN YEARS that doesn't spend and by all accounts at best will be the Tigers, Indians, or Brewers for 5 years before selling off pieces. He had that with the Orioles. I'd sign with teams that have a proven track record that they'll stretch and sign players even when they're at the luxury tax. A proven track record of winning. I'd only sign with the Sox if they gave me a record breaking contract. Otherwise I'd be a Yankee or Phillie. With no ties to the Sox .... no growing up going to Comiskey... no childhood memories.... separate yourselves from the situation and look at it objectively.... very few of us would sign with the Sox.

Sox need to overpay, and overpay a lot. And that's fine. The overpay is due to JR cheap arse underpaying for the past decades. Give Machado 12 years if he needs it. It's the cost of doing business because of the predicament he's put them in over the past decade. If you're not willing to do that, JR won't be willing to do that when it matters either.

Bah Humbug.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Then you’re suggesting a 10 year rebuild, which is not only insanity but would also destroy what little remaining interest our fanbase has in the team.  And the reason for this?  All because you’re scared to spend some money on a big name player.  I honestly can’t comprehend this line of thinking.

Oh no, I’m not scared to spend some money on a big name player. I’m scared to spend big money on Manny Machado specifically, especially if he has no desire to be here. I don’t see that guy as a cornerstone and leader of this rebuild.