Offseason plan in the event the Sox don't get HarpChado

[LittleHurt05]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Because they already had that trend of being pretty boring/mediocre every other season.

2007-09-11-13

The Adam Dunn fiasco was yet another huge setback...followed up by LaRoche and Melky.  Bad decisions and poor talent evaluation compounding, mixed in with Beckham/Viciedo sliding  backwards and Quentin’s health going.   Tried to hold the veteran core together too long, there are so many things we could point to.

Exactly my point. A total rebuild isn't gonna cost them the fanbase. It's an already weak fanbase that's dealt with mind numbing mediocrity for years.

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, Baron said:

Sure it might be record breaking. The problem is the other teams probably have comparable record breaking offers. 

Correct. But the question was if they even offered a record breaking deal.

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

Exactly my point. A total rebuild isn't gonna cost them the fanbase. It's an already weak fanbase that's dealt with mind numbing mediocrity for years.

It may. With all of the meathead comments on just here of posters saying  they will be more mad at them for saying they were actually trying to get the big FAs and not getting them as opposed to not even trying, they may lose fans.

Even you said you would attend and watch less games.

[beautox]

If the sox don't land Harpchado I'd like to see these moves happen.

Abreu to TB for 2B Vidal Brujan# + LHP Resly Linares*

Alonso to NYY for OF Jacoby Ellsbury*(+8M) + OF Clint Frazier + OF Estevan Florial*

Castillo & Jones to COL for 1B Grant Lavigne* + LHP Breiling Eusebio*

Hold Colome & Nova till mid season

DH - Palka*
C - McCann
1B - Delmonico*
2B - Sanchez#
SS - Anderson
3B - Moncada#
LF - Frazier
CF - Garcia#
RF - Jimenez

[hi8is]

21 minutes ago, beautox said:

Alonso to NYY for OF Jacoby Ellsbury*(+8M) + OF Clint Frazier + OF Estevan Florial*

wtf

[The Beast]

If they miss out on Machado and Harper, sign relievers and starting pitchers to fill out the roster and try to flip for prospects at the deadline or see if they can be a part of the 25 man roster when it is time to compete. Consider Moustakas if Abreu or Alonso get moved and sign him to a two year deal. Prepare to go and get Arenado next offseason and throw cash at him if he is worth it. Continue with the rebuild.

[Quin]

1 hour ago, hi8is said:

wtf

I would also greatly like this, but unless this is Machado's contingent on signing with the Yankees, I' not seeing it.

[caulfield12]

58 minutes ago, The Beast said:

If they miss out on Machado and Harper, sign relievers and starting pitchers to fill out the roster and try to flip for prospects at the deadline or see if they can be a part of the 25 man roster when it is time to compete. Consider Moustakas if Abreu or Alonso get moved and sign him to a two year deal. Prepare to go and get Arenado next offseason and throw cash at him if he is worth it. Continue with the rebuild.

Cue “Bird Box” GIFs...

[Flash Tizzle]

I’m not even upset that Williams and Hahn raised expectations this offseason, I’m more worried what direction this team will go if they fail to sign Machado or Harper. It honestly feels like this moment is the proverbial fork in the road — bring in the whales and it signifies the next chapter of the rebuild. Not that anyone believes that one move puts us over the top, but it’s a huge morale and financial boost nonetheless. It would be ideal for renewing interest among the casual fans which translates to added revenue. Thus, momemtun carries forward for 2020

Alternatively, missing out on either isn’t going to doom our franchise (unless Harper goes to the Cubs...); but the negative effects are felt amongst the fans as well. It is such a deflating feeling to go through another shoulder shurg, “well we tried” moment. Whatever the reason, whatever excuse is given for neither player signing Sox it won’t matter. If the alternatives listed within this thread are what we have to look forward to (ie, more mid level talent), I’d rather lose another 100 games sticking to the rebuild. 

What I feel is in the works if we miss out on Harper/Machado is a trade for someone elite, like Arenado. White Sox cannot possibly fool themselves into believing they have a shot for him on the open market after this offseason. However, is it unreasonable to believe the same team that uses Machado’s brother in law as a bargaining chip would acquire Arenado with the intention of signing him to a long term deal.....exclusively?  Unfortunately, I envision something like Rodan/Abreu/Eloy being enough for a package revolving around Arenado/Rodgers/etc. Believe me, I’d rather do none of the above and merely overpay for him; but after this Alonso situation, it really has me worried. From the beginning, it just came off as extremely desperate. As if someone jokingly mentioned it during a phone call never expecting the White Sox to follow through.

 

Now, with it sounding like Machado is looking elsewhere Hahn has to be feeling the animosity among fans. I can feel it just reading these boards. I don’t see how they could look fans in the face and try to sell them on Moustakas, Pollack as being the pieces of the plan. “We failed acquiring more desirable talent so these are the mercenaries who you’ll pay to make 2019 slightly more bearable than 2018. We promise 2020 will be different” 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Flash Tizzle

[Dick Allen]

9 hours ago, LittleHurt05 said:

Exactly my point. A total rebuild isn't gonna cost them the fanbase. It's an already weak fanbase that's dealt with mind numbing mediocrity for years.

Look at what the rebuilds did to the Indians fan base, and they have actually had some on field success. 

White Sox attendance has decreased from the previous season every year beginning in 2007 except for one, when they slashed ticket prices and there was a modest increase. If they don't start winning soon, the people who found some other way to spend their time while they sucked, will be less inclined to come back. 

I do think their public acknowledgement of their pursuits will have a more negative impact than when they usually strike out with little comment.  I think there were a very high percentage of White Sox fans who thought at least one of these guys was going to be a White Sox. If that doesn't happen, a lot is going to have to go right in 2019 for the trend not to continue. 

[Bob Sacamano]

13 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said:

I’m not even upset that Williams and Hahn raised expectations this offseason, I’m more worried what direction this team will go if they fail to sign Machado or Harper. It honestly feels like this moment is the proverbial fork in the road — bring in the whales and it signifies the next chapter of the rebuild. Not that anyone believes that one move puts us over the top, but it’s a huge morale and financial boost nonetheless. It would be ideal for renewing interest among the casual fans which translates to added revenue. Thus, momemtun carries forward for 2020

Alternatively, missing out on either isn’t going to doom our franchise (unless Harper goes to the Cubs...); but the negative effects are felt amongst the fans as well. It is such a deflating feeling to go through another shoulder shurg, “well we tried” moment. Whatever the reason, whatever excuse is given for neither player signing Sox it won’t matter. If the alternatives listed within this thread are what we have to look forward to (ie, more mid level talent), I’d rather lose another 100 games sticking to the rebuild. 

What I feel is in the works if we miss out on Harper/Machado is a trade for someone elite, like Arenado. White Sox cannot possibly fool themselves into believing they have a shot for him on the open market after this offseason. However, is it unreasonable to believe the same team that uses Machado’s brother in law as a bargaining chip would acquire Arenado with the intention of signing him to a long term deal.....exclusively?  Unfortunately, I envision something like Rodan/Abreu/Eloy being enough for a package revolving around Arenado/Rodgers/etc. Believe me, I’d rather do none of the above and merely overpay for him; but after this Alonso situation, it really has me worried. From the beginning, it just came off as extremely desperate. As if someone jokingly mentioned it during a phone call never expecting the White Sox to follow through.

 

Now, with it sounding like Machado is looking elsewhere Hahn has to be feeling the animosity among fans. I can feel it just reading these boards. I don’t see how they could look fans in the face and try to sell them on Moustakas, Pollack as being the pieces of the plan. “We failed acquiring more desirable talent so these are the mercenaries who you’ll pay to make 2019 slightly more bearable than 2018. We promise 2020 will be different” 

I'm 100% certain they continue in the current direction. I don't think we have to worry.

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

I'm 100% certain they continue in the current direction. I don't think we have to worry.

I would imagine so. The problem is, if they don't improve much, and take a swing at next year's free agents, they will have the same problem as this year. Bad team, not much interest, more desirable destinations. 

Hopefully, Moncada and Eloy, and TA can all take a leap forward, and Gio, Rodon, and Lopez do the same, and Cease continues improving, and Dunning puts his elbow issues behind him, so at least they will have a little more to hang their hat on. 

[Flash Tizzle]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I would imagine so. The problem is, if they don't improve much, and take a swing at next year's free agents, they will have the same problem as this year. Bad team, not much interest, more desirable destinations. 

Hopefully, Moncada and Eloy, and TA can all take a leap forward, and Gio, Rodon, and Lopez do the same, and Cease continues improving, and Dunning puts his elbow issues behind him, so at least they will have a little more to hang their hat on. 

If those players don’t take a big leap forward they’ve also lost their sales pitch. Who knows how effective it is to begin with, but you can’t say we’re on the verge of greatness with young talent, come play for us, if said talent doesn’t step up. 

[caulfield12]

https://sports.yahoo.com/phillies-rumors-best-available-backup-163541158.html

This pretty much is the same situation the White Sox fans are facing...except the Phillies are really stuck in the middle about competing or tearing down if they can’t add a whale or trade for Realmuto.

That leaves Pollock, Markakis (yuck), Moustakas and Marwin Gonzalez as the four best remaining options...unless you start looking at bargain/buy low guys like Dozier or Lowrie that don’t fit the window.

Most Phillies fans want to try for Trout after 2020...but 15-20 teams have that same idea, with 8 teams having the resources to actually pull it off.

 

 

 

[Hamhock]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Most Phillies fans want to try for Trout after 2020...but 15-20 teams have that same idea, with 8 teams having the resources to actually pull it off.

The slight advantage that the Phillies would have with Trout is that he came from the area and grew up a Phillies fan; as we see from the possible Machado/Yankees situation, “always wanted to be a _____ growing up” has a bit of weight behind it.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, Hamhock said:

The slight advantage that the Phillies would have with Trout is that he came from the area and grew up a Phillies fan; as we see from the possible Machado/Yankees situation, “always wanted to be a _____ growing up” has a bit of weight behind it.

I don’t think baseball could take Trout to the Yankees, another realistic option given where he grew up.

If the Phillies can’t keep moving forward, they’re going to be screwed.  What member of their offense can be identified by casual fans, other than Hoskins?   If Trout can’t get to the playoffs with the Angels, his immediate concern will be signing with an almost automatic playoff contender.

For the White Sox, it means we probably sign Jason Kipnis, lol.  We already missed Cliff Floyd and Granderson.

 

[hogan873]

Obviously we can choose to believe or not believe the rumors about both Harper and Machado, but we can probably all agree that we wouldn't be surprised if they sign elsewhere.  That being said, does doing nothing else make sense?  If they miss out on both and end up not making another move, how much better is this team in 2019 even if Moncada, Anderson, Giolito, and Lopez make strides?  What concerns me is the lack of big free agents after this coming season.

Would it make sense to sign Moustakas and Pollack?  I'm not sure what kind of money they would be getting, but I would suspect that both could be signed for about what one of Harper or Machado would cost.  How much do those guys improve the Sox, though?

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Obviously we can choose to believe or not believe the rumors about both Harper and Machado, but we can probably all agree that we wouldn't be surprised if they sign elsewhere.  That being said, does doing nothing else make sense?  If they miss out on both and end up not making another move, how much better is this team in 2019 even if Moncada, Anderson, Giolito, and Lopez make strides?  What concerns me is the lack of big free agents after this coming season.

Would it make sense to sign Moustakas and Pollack?  I'm not sure what kind of money they would be getting, but I would suspect that both could be signed for about what one of Harper or Machado would cost.  How much do those guys improve the Sox, though?

You could get those two for $100 million total, 3 years for each...or 2 Moustakas, 4 Pollock.

Arenado, Rendon, Bogaerts, Goldschmidt, JD Martinez (will be 32 at end of next season, opt out a good bet if he repeats), Sale, Cole, Bumgarner, Verlander, Wheeler, Porcello...feels like a lot more options that we would be targeting long-term if they were available right now, yes?

Edited December 31, 2018 by caulfield12

[hogan873]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You could get those two for $100 million total, 3 years for each...or 2 Moustakas, 4 Pollock.

Arenado, Rendon, Bogaerts, Goldschmidt, JD Martinez (will be 32 at end of next season, opt out a good bet if he repeats), Sale, Cole, Bumgarner, Verlander, Wheeler, Porcello...feels like a lot more options that we would be targeting long-term if they were available right now, yes?

Yeah, I was thinking annually those two guys combined would cost the same or less than Harper or Machado.  Arenado would be a nice option, but I feel he may extend with the Rockies.  Rendon would be a great fit as would Bogaerts.  And a #1 or #2 starter would be huge (Sale or Cole, especially).

Maybe I'm more concerned about the perception if the Sox miss out on the big two and don't do anything.  Many fans, possibly myself included, would not have much faith in the team's ability to get one of the those bigger names next off season.

[Flash Tizzle]

5 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Yeah, I was thinking annually those two guys combined would cost the same or less than Harper or Machado.  Arenado would be a nice option, but I feel he may extend with the Rockies.  Rendon would be a great fit as would Bogaerts.  And a #1 or #2 starter would be huge (Sale or Cole, especially).

Maybe I'm more concerned about the perception if the Sox miss out on the big two and don't do anything.  Many fans, possibly myself included, would not have much faith in the team's ability to get one of the those bigger names next off season.

No one could possibly have faith in them. They just haven’t earned it. Arenado, no. Bogaerts, no. I’d have to believe Verlander, Cole, and especially Sale will not be receiving record breaking deals with the White Sox. Especially as pitchers. Houston, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Philadelphia and the Rockies all have modest (under $80 mil) payroll obligations for 2020. That’s not including any of the high payroll teams that always are in the mix

[beautox]

11 hours ago, hi8is said:

wtf

Whats not to get if they're missing out on Harper and Machado and Manny signs with the yankees, might as well ship Yonder over to the yankees take on the majority of Ellsbury's contract and get two good looking young OF prospects for the dead money owed on Jacoby's contract.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, beautox said:

Whats not to get if they're missing out on Harper and Machado and Manny signs with the yankees, might as well ship Yonder over to the yankees take on the majority of Ellsbury's contract and get two good looking young OF prospects for the dead money owed on Jacoby's contract.

They wouldn’t even trade Florial for Kluber. 

[beautox]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

They wouldn’t even trade Florial for Kluber. 

Florial's value by fangraph's account is roughly $26M. Ellsbury is owed 47.2M, Frazier has health question marks due to his concussion hes a former 55FV I personally put his value around 21M. This doesn't even take into account the added tax value elevation for the yankees by moving an AAV of nearly 22M dropping their current payroll from 192 to 170ish before adding Yonder and Manny's respective contracts. The yankees would have roughly 36M before the new tax threshold of 206.

[Whisox05]

Wouldn't mind to see if the Sox could try to get Raimel Tapia and Ryan McMahon from the Rockies. Both were high end specs and are blocked/ fallen out of favor with the club. 

[LittleHurt05]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Look at what the rebuilds did to the Indians fan base, and they have actually had some on field success. 

White Sox attendance has decreased from the previous season every year beginning in 2007 except for one, when they slashed ticket prices and there was a modest increase. If they don't start winning soon, the people who found some other way to spend their time while they sucked, will be less inclined to come back. 

I do think their public acknowledgement of their pursuits will have a more negative impact than when they usually strike out with little comment.  I think there were a very high percentage of White Sox fans who thought at least one of these guys was going to be a White Sox. If that doesn't happen, a lot is going to have to go right in 2019 for the trend not to continue. 

The Indians rebuilds aren't comparable. They had to rebuild because ownership was too cheap to pay good players on successful teams.  The White Sox are rebuilding because the front office couldn't put together a winning team.