Jack Parkman Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Roughneck said: Clearly not all teams want to win. The problem is that the teams which do want to win seem set at a lot of these positions. Players are in a rough spot because so many teams are rebuilding, and the teams trying to win seem set either set at a lot of these positions or at payroll limits. If the Cubs/Yankees/Boston/Dodgers had legitimate needs at 3B or OF, Harper and Machado would be looking at much bigger contracts and the Sox might not be in on this. Maybe the problem was the players agreeing to the current penalty system, because those teams clearly are profiting like crazy, but no longer willing to spend the taxed money because it also comes with other penalties. A guy like Dozier could moderately improve a lot of teams, but that's the exact move the Sox would have made in years past which would drive fans insane - a pretty good veteran who is too old to be on your next good team, who will help a contender but do just well enough for you to worsen your draft position. The goal from the MLBPA's perspective is to set the system up so that it is more beneficial to all 30 teams to try to win, rather than tank/rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roughneck Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Agreed. At this point the MLBPA could go to court and claim the owners aren't acting in good faith on the current CBA, and they wouldn't If the players aren't getting their retirement contracts, then the negotiated 6 years of control is just being exploitative and nothing more. There are two options currently: 1. Cap and Floor 2. Arbitration kicks in after 1st full season in the Majors. I don't think the owners would go for 2. so they have to seriously consider the cap and floor model. The owners have called for #1 (or at least a cap). The players don't want a cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 I think there probably needs to be a floor as well. I don't have a problem with the payroll ceiling but if they have that, they should have a payroll floor and have teams be taxed if they don't spend enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, yesterday333 said: I think there probably needs to be a floor as well. I don't have a problem with the payroll ceiling but if they have that, they should have a payroll floor and have teams be taxed if they don't spend enough. The players don't want a floor, because with a floor comes a ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, jenksycat said: The only players getting screwed are the young guys, not the dudes making hundreds of millions. The MLBPA has been selling out young talent for decades so 30 year old guys could sign massive deals. Teams finally smartened up and stopped handing those deals out so now those deals are gone. Their next deal needs to have massive pay increases for young guys Yes. I've said all along the worst thing that happened to the players was the Cubs and Astros winning. It showed teams that fans would tolerate losing and going young to rebuild . The rebuilds worked the fans returned and it was done with you g controlled players with a couple of the high end players thrown in. Mid range players are squeezed out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said: Big changes are absolutely needed. I haven't spent too much time looking into it -- but it feels like Executives in the front office are pocketing more of the money and are using the young players who make next to nothing to field their team. MLB Players need to get paid significantly more for the years that they are valuable (younger years). It’s not entirely the owners fault though. It’s how the system works and they are completely taking advantage of it. The players union negotiated a bad deal and now they are paying for it. Teams are a lot smarter too thanks to all the advance metrics that prove a lot of players were being overpaid for their services. I actually think the market is correcting itself in an odd way. I would like to see a system implemented that models restricted and unrestricted free agents. Make it replace the arbitration system. I think that would be a good compromise that forces teams to better pay the young studs or risk losing them. Also places a timeframe to get these deals done before real free agency hits. It would help take the money the older players aren’t seeing anymore and pump it back into the system only earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Man how long ago does Tuesday feel when we were actually getting relevant news? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Dick Allen said: The players don't want a floor, because with a floor comes a ceiling. Well they have a soft ceiling already, and right now teams aren't willing to go much beyond that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Tony said: So here's the thing, and why I sort of agree with something big needing to change with structure of contracts. As it currently stands, baseball doesn't want to pay "older" players for future performance based on the past. And I don't really disagree with that. If I'm the White Sox, why am I going to give Brian Dozier a three year deal after he just came off a really bad season, will be 32 for most of the 2019 season. How much of what I'm paying Brian Dozier has to do with his 2016 season? Why am I paying for that if I'm the White Sox? I don't see that return. The problem is the pendulum has swung so hard back to valuing younger players and prospects, those guys need to get paid A LOT more. While what you say is 100% true, the system was set up so it rewarded being able to stick in the Majors. Under this system, a guy who has 3 great years, gets hurt and is never heard from again makes more money than a career utility player/reliever who sticks for 7-10 seasons. The economic system is just fucked up, and I'd go and say that it reflects what is happening in everyday life for most of us, just with the baseball players there is much more money involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: Man how long ago does Tuesday feel when we were actually getting relevant news? Was it relevant though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I don't know, I think best thing for players would just be to restructure and try and get arb in year 2 and make year 6 a team option. At that point it's legitimate salary and could give them an additional year of free agency. And quite frankly I think teams would like more actual free agents too. It's not just that teams value free agents less, it's that they are just a much worse pool to build teams on then 15 years ago when players somehow aged much more gracefully (at least it felt that way!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Rowand44 said: Was it relevant though? it was pro white sox so it was totally relevant. Non pro white sox is irrelevant because they must be mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: It’s not entirely the owners fault though. It’s how the system works and they are completely taking advantage of it. The players union negotiated a bad deal and now they are paying for it. Teams are a lot smarter too thanks to all the advance metrics that prove a lot of players were being overpaid for their services. I actually think the market is correcting itself in an odd way. I would like to see a system implemented that models restricted and unrestricted free agents. Make it replace the arbitration system. I think that would be a good compromise that forces teams to better pay the young studs or risk losing them. Also places a timeframe to get these deals done before real free agency hits. It would help take the money the older players aren’t seeing anymore and pump it back into the system only earlier. This is a good idea as well, but it doesn't work without a salary cap. Otherwise, teams like the Yankees/Sawx/Cubs would just give huge deals to young stars and poach them constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: The system is broken. They have to do something to compensate players properly. If every FO is not going to sign a top FA to a huge contract because they're unlikely to live up to it, then the system is busted. The players give 6 years of control in return for big retirement contracts. Compensate players properly? Compared to what? The players have absolutely no risk, the owners do, and get paid astronomically numbers. Both of these players will make 30 million dollars per year with absolutely no risk to their earnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: it was pro white sox so it was totally relevant. Non pro white sox is irrelevant because they must be mistaken. Absolutely correct. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, ptatc said: Compensate players properly? Compared to what? The players have absolutely no risk, the owners do, and get paid astronomically numbers. Both of these players will make 30 million dollars per year with absolutely no risk to their earnings. Incorrect. If a player has an unlucky year or gets injured in a contract year, it severely impacts his future earning potential. There is risk on both sides, and failing to acknowledge otherwise is management bullshit speak 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, bmags said: it was pro white sox so it was totally relevant. Non pro white sox is irrelevant because they must be mistaken. You trust Bob Nightengale and Bruce Levine more than Bucket, raBBit, and WSD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I just can’t get worked up over the plight of unionized labor force with a $500,000 minimum wage and $4,000,000 median salary, not to mention free high end medical benefits. If they aren’t making enough, it’s their own damn fault. They have ALL the tools to take care of themselves and decades of precedent doing so. They screwed themselves over in the last CBA a bit for sure, but take a look at salary growth over the last thirty years, both gross and in terms of percentage of revenue. Their union has been one of the strongest in history. They enjoy benefits and protections that most other industries dream of, and get paid ten times more. In what other billion dollar industry does non-executive labor get anywhere CLOSE to the fraction of revenue that players get? If we want to be outraged about economic equality we need to stop crying about these athletes and turn out rage toward those who actually need it. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Jose Abreu said: You trust Bob Nightengale and Bruce Levine more than Bucket, raBBit, and WSD? TRUST NO ONE 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: This is a good idea as well, but it doesn't work without a salary cap. Otherwise, teams like the Yankees/Sawx/Cubs would just give huge deals to young stars and poach them constantly. To make it more fair with risk/reward for both side, institute a salary cap and floor but also make the player contracts non-guaranteed like football. Now both sides will have a little skin in the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Jose Abreu said: You trust Bob Nightengale and Bruce Levine more than Bucket, raBBit, and WSD? I have no idea how you took that away from that sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tony said: You can make the argument that the player that had 3 "great years" as you put it deserves to get paid more than the utility player that sticks around for 7-10 years. You can and I don't disagree. but the guy who sticks around feels screwed by the guy who doesn't. It is a really delicate situation. Anyway, the RFA/UFA model doesn't work without a cap and the only alternative is arbitration from years 2-end of team control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Eminor3rd said: I just can’t get worked up over the plight of unionized labor force with a $500,000 minimum wage and $4,000,000 median salary, not to mention free high end medical benefits. If they aren’t making enough, it’s their own damn fault. They have ALL the tools to take care of themselves and decades of precedent doing so. They screwed themselves over in the last CBA a bit for sure, but take a look at salary growth over the last thirty years, both gross and in terms of percentage of revenue. Their union has been one of the strongest in history. They enjoy benefits and protections that most other industries dream of, and get paid ten times more. In what other billion dollar industry does non-executive labor get anywhere CLOSE to the fraction of revenue that players get? If we want to be outraged about economic equality we need to stop crying about these athletes and turn out rage toward those who actually need it. If I were going to get incensed about a labor situation in baseball, it's the plight of minor league athletes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: I have no idea how you took that away from that sentence. You were making a joke that you think people only trust the positive news and distrust the negative news (a joke I disagree with because I see it more the other way around, but that's beside the point). The positive news came from Bucket, raBBit, and WSD. The negative news came from Nightengale and Levine. That's where I'm coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: Incorrect. If a player has an unlucky year or gets injured in a contract year, it severely impacts his future earning potential. There is risk on both sides, and failing to acknowledge otherwise is management bullshit speak 101. If a players gets injured his contract is still guaranteed. Once he hits the MLB he is guaranteed to make around 1 million per year. Playing poorly does not constitute risk as he has total control over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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