ptatc Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: I feel the baseball players association is the weakest/worst of all associations. What can they really do? Tell a player to sign for less than what the player wants? Until they get a salary cap with a salary floor, this is how its going to be. I think it's one of the strongest. The only one to not have any type of cap placed upon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Just now, Soxbadger said: I feel the baseball players association is the weakest/worst of all associations. What can they really do? Tell a player to sign for less than what the player wants? Until they get a salary cap with a salary floor, this is how its going to be. But really, are they going to get more? What difference does it make to these teams if he is making his decision today or next week or the week after? Until they know it's about to happen, their best offers are probably not on the table. If anything, he may lose a team or two and some leverage because if they are contending, they may have to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: I feel the baseball players association is the weakest/worst of all associations. What can they really do? Tell a player to sign for less than what the player wants? Until they get a salary cap with a salary floor, this is how its going to be. Why wouldn't they instead just fight to get paid earlier in career? Reduce 6 years of control to 4 years? That's a better deal for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said: Then Hahn better be putting on his running shoes because I doubt Machado would sign with the Sox for much less than that if the Yankees offer 275M. Nothing has suggested the Yankees will come close to offering $275M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peavy44 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, fathom said: I like these negotiations a hell of a lot more than the Harper one. The Harper ones looks like he wants go back to nats all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, ptatc said: I think it's one of the strongest. The only one to not have any type of cap placed upon them. Id have to do more research than its worth, but I think not having a cap has hurt them. When there is a cap/floor teams generally spend to the cap, even when they suck. When you have a cap thats tied to revenue/profit, the players keep getting increases and its almost impossible for the owners to keep the market down. Id have to look, but Id guess that NFL salaries have increased at a higher pace than MLB salaries for this very reason. I think that the illusion of no cap makes the MLBPA think they are getting a better deal, when they arent. Imagine if every team in baseball spent $150mil per year. That would be a hell of a lot more money for players. Now maybe it hurts the megastars (ie Lebron James could make $50mil plus with no restriction on his salary), but for the average player it would help. 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: But really, are they going to get more? What difference does it make to these teams if he is making his decision today or next week or the week after? Until they know it's about to happen, their best offers are probably not on the table. If anything, he may lose a team or two and some leverage because if they are contending, they may have to move on. They obviously think it makes a difference. Lozano hasnt historically pulled this junk (as compared to Boras) so I think that they must really believe they are getting low balled. 1 minute ago, bmags said: Why wouldn't they instead just fight to get paid earlier in career? Reduce 6 years of control to 4 years? That's a better deal for them. Because that doesnt help the majority of current players. Why would a guy who is already out of arb years care about that? The MLBPA represents current players, the deals are always going to be skewed to help the majority. Its just like when its always easy to agree to rules that screw future rookies. They arent in the MLBPA so none of the voters care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If he signs for 7 years, Bruce Levine is owed several apologies. Ha, but if you heard him on the radio reporting it, you wouldn't say this. Also he was insufferable on inside the clubhouse this weekend interviewing the cubs new hitting coach complaining about millenials not listening to older people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, ptatc said: I would sprint away from the table if I was hahn if that's what it will take. I'd sprint to the contract lawyer before the Yankees change their mind. The risk is the years, not the AAV. Edited January 7, 2019 by chitownsportsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Id have to do more research than its worth, but I think not having a cap has hurt them. When there is a cap/floor teams generally spend to the cap, even when they suck. When you have a cap thats tied to revenue/profit, the players keep getting increases and its almost impossible for the owners to keep the market down. Id have to look, but Id guess that NFL salaries have increased at a higher pace than MLB salaries for this very reason. I think that the illusion of no cap makes the MLBPA think they are getting a better deal, when they arent. Imagine if every team in baseball spent $150mil per year. That would be a hell of a lot more money for players. Now maybe it hurts the megastars (ie Lebron James could make $50mil plus with no restriction on his salary), but for the average player it would help. They obviously think it makes a difference. Lozano hasnt historically pulled this junk (as compared to Boras) so I think that they must really believe they are getting low balled. Because that doesnt help the majority of current players. Why would a guy who is already out of arb years care about that? The MLBPA represents current players, the deals are always going to be skewed to help the majority. Its just like when its always easy to agree to rules that screw future rookies. They arent in the MLBPA so none of the voters care. Do you have numbers on that? I'd imagine majority of players are on their first contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Soxbadger said: Id have to do more research than its worth, but I think not having a cap has hurt them. When there is a cap/floor teams generally spend to the cap, even when they suck. When you have a cap thats tied to revenue/profit, the players keep getting increases and its almost impossible for the owners to keep the market down. Id have to look, but Id guess that NFL salaries have increased at a higher pace than MLB salaries for this very reason. I think that the illusion of no cap makes the MLBPA think they are getting a better deal, when they arent. Imagine if every team in baseball spent $150mil per year. That would be a hell of a lot more money for players. Now maybe it hurts the megastars (ie Lebron James could make $50mil plus with no restriction on his salary), but for the average player it would help. I think this would only happen if a floor was in place as well. Teams in other sports may spend to the cap but I'm not sure that other sports have the disparity in revenue that baseball has. you're right that it's more owrk than it's worth but the MLBPA has kept the oweners for getting what they want more than the other sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) Sign Manny and Gio Gonzalez and I'm good with next year's team. Not that I expect them to, but they could possibly catch lightning in a bottle and contend for the division with some strides from the youngsters. Edited January 7, 2019 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Just now, soxfan2014 said: Sign Manny and Gio Gonzalez and I'm good with next year's team. Could possibly catch lightning in a bottle and contend for the division with some strides from the youngsters. I still want Harper too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Just now, South Side Fireworks Man said: I still want Harper too. Yeah same, but my comment was a more realistic take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Just now, bmags said: Do you have numbers on that? I'd imagine majority of players are on their first contracts. You may be right, there is no database that I can find to give me the raw numbers. But I went through some teams and it looks like a majority are arb/pre arb. I still think its a hard sell because there is a good percentage of players that it doesnt help. The other issue is that it keeps the same system where now teams are just looking for even younger players that are cost controlled. Until they tie revenue to salary, the owners can do whatever they want and there will always be collusion theories. 1 minute ago, ptatc said: I think this would only happen if a floor was in place as well. Teams in other sports may spend to the cap but I'm not sure that other sports have the disparity in revenue that baseball has. you're right that it's more owrk than it's worth but the MLBPA has kept the oweners for getting what they want more than the other sports. There would have to be cap/floor. Eventually over time the cap becomes the floor, but to start theyd need a floor. I personally think that they just have the illusion of getting more than other sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I wanted Harper at 10 and 400. If we can get Manny for 275, try to get Harper as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksnort Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, aeichhor said: Nice analysis there. If Machado does end up making our dreams come true, this is going to shock all of baseball nation, and totally changes the dynamic of this team in so many different ways, all positively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 https://mobile.twitter.com/BNightengale/status/1082346780023345152 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: OMG, it was like five games. Why do you keep drawing conclusions from his ridiculously brief stint with the Red Sox? I am not looking at the defensive side. He was switched to 3B in AA for the last 10 games and he struggled. He then struggled in the field, w the bat and even had a couple of big mental mistakes when he was called up. Immediately after the trade, Hahn came out and said he was moving him back to 2B. You can guess why. Then after this season, Moncada said he hopes to stay at 2B and Hahn said he finally looks comfortable playing the position. If he did not have offensive issues, a move to 3B makes sense to me. But until he seems comfortable at the plate, I think another change in position may have a negative impact on his overall mental approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: You may be right, there is no database that I can find to give me the raw numbers. But I went through some teams and it looks like a majority are arb/pre arb. I still think its a hard sell because there is a good percentage of players that it doesnt help. The other issue is that it keeps the same system where now teams are just looking for even younger players that are cost controlled. Until they tie revenue to salary, the owners can do whatever they want and there will always be collusion theories. There would have to be cap/floor. Eventually over time the cap becomes the floor, but to start theyd need a floor. I personally think that they just have the illusion of getting more than other sports. I think so many years of salary cap being the bogey man mean that shorter control is more likely. It will negatively impact vets as you say (crowding of market), but i do think they can get solidarity on that push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 minute ago, SCCWS said: I am not looking at the defensive side. He was switched to 3B in AA for the last 10 games and he struggled. He then struggled in the field, w the bat and even had a couple of big mental mistakes when he was called up. Immediately after the trade, Hahn came out and said he was moving him back to 2B. You can guess why. Then after this season, Moncada said he hopes to stay at 2B and Hahn said he finally looks comfortable playing the position. If he did not have offensive issues, a move to 3B makes sense to me. But until he seems comfortable at the plate, I think another change in position may have a negative impact on his overall mental approach. There is zero reason to move Moncada to 3B. You'd be taking away his biggest long term asset which is going to be incredible range up the middle and a strong pivot. And his hands are never going to be great which is basically the most important tool at 3B a long with 1st step and reaction. You're putting a huge cap on his value moving him to 3B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 40 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I have heard it speculated that Harper and Machado are holding up the rest of the market. If it's even slightly true, wouldn't the players association be putting some pressure on them to sign something? Saw a piece yesterday that the two agents are also rivals and neither wants to give in first. Not exactly the best thing for their clients it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Just now, chitownsportsfan said: There is zero reason to move Moncada to 3B. You'd be taking away his biggest long term asset which is going to be incredible range up the middle and a strong pivot. And his hands are never going to be great which is basically the most important tool at 3B a long with 1st step and reaction. You're putting a huge cap on his value moving him to 3B. yep, would much rather see him in CF than at 3B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, bmags said: I think so many years of salary cap being the bogey man mean that shorter control is more likely. It will negatively impact vets as you say (crowding of market), but i do think they can get solidarity on that push. Maybe, but its going to be a tricky one. What do you do for players who are under control already? Do they immediately become FAs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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