Roughneck Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: And they don't take that profit out. They allegedly put it back into the team. But you know how this works. They set a range for what they want to spend in a given year, and that fluctuates depending on how good the team is, obviously. If they value a winning team at $200 million, they aren't going to spend $260 mil in a year just because they saved that money the previous year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 If they can convince Machado to only play for the bargain price of $200 million to play with his buddies...then, Boom!, $100-200 million in savings, oops, minus $13 million for Alonso and Jay. Then we can go to Rodon, Moncada, Jimenez and Lopez...and ask them what similar things we can do to get them to sign extensions, ala Eaton/Sale/Q, into their first couple of years of free agency? Btw, isn’t anyone the least bit concerned that Renteria and Hahn will have no way of controlling the monster of all cliques they’re going to be creating in the clubhouse, by giving Machado this special kind of treatment that almost no free agent has ever received? Sure, it will be fine if they’re winning and happy...but what if they struggle to win 70 games despite all the new additions? What will they have to do in the future to attract free agents if this whole thing blows up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, Flash Tizzle said: If it works awesome, but honestly —is this is what we have to do to convince premier FAs to sign with us? Anyone else feel it’s just....kind of sad? Only if it fails but the players union is probably thrilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREEDY Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, BigHurt3515 said: Who cares if they spend $13M this year that will be off the books? This year is a wash anyways especially if we don't sign Machado/Harper. Alonso and Jay could and probably will be dealt at the deadline if they have a decent first half of the season. There is 0 harm in having Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso on this team. People will b**** to b**** This is not a great line of thinking. There is no proof that 13,000,000 saved couldn't be used on a future payroll. Alonso/Jay have almost zero upside. Even if they have a nice first half both will have trade value similar to the money they are owed for the remainder of the season. And finally, the most important aspect on why I don't want to watch the Sox acquire Stop-Gap type players in an effort to win 75 games: The opportunity/plate appearances could be given to a player with control remaining. A failed prospect. A lottery ticket... anything that might help the Sox win down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said: Context. If it's 4th and 12 on your 48 and you go for it yea we can question the process. Given that 29 other team s aren't going the friends and family plan I think this process is open to ridicule should it fail. Exactly. It's all about context. In your football scenario, I would say it is a horrible decision to go for it, even if you convert it. In this Machado situation, there is no way for us to know what Hahn knows right now. So how can you complain and say it's a terrible decision to sign Jay if we don't land Machado? If signing Alonso and Jay didn't increase our chances of Machado at all, then I would say it was a poor decision. But if signing them increased our chances from 30% to 70%, and he still ultimately chose New York, then I would say it was a great move, even though it failed. The problem is that we will never know how much it really increased their chances, so why complain about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 25 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Say you have $20k in the bank you would consider spending money. You decide, you know what, I need a blow out vacation. I am going to spent $15k on it. The next year your car breaks down, you need a new one. Would your car budget be higher, lower or the same had you not spent the $15k on the vacation? I cannot understand how anyone cannot get the logic that money spent now is money that will not be in the bank for later. It is the very reason the White Sox are even mentioned when Machado and Harper come up. Unfortunately, you have no idea what the Sox do with their profits. You assume they just keep a bunch of excess cash on their balance sheet, but they may cash out each year and pay their owners a dividend. The reality is we have no idea how the Sox operate their business. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said: If it works awesome, but honestly —is this is what we have to do to convince premier FAs to sign with us? Anyone else feel it’s just....kind of sad? The Sox were always going to have to pay a we suck tax. Hopefully this is part of it. If they have to pay the tax and still not get the player, then it would be more than kind of sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Is this a $13M distraction and it’s Harper or bust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said: Exactly. It's all about context. In your football scenario, I would say it is a horrible decision to go for it, even if you convert it. In this Machado situation, there is no way for us to know what Hahn knows right now. So how can you complain and say it's a terrible decision to sign Jay if we don't land Machado? If signing Alonso and Jay didn't increase our chances of Machado at all, then I would say it was a poor decision. But if signing them increased our chances from 30% to 70%, and he still ultimately chose New York, then I would say it was a great move, even though it failed. The problem is that we will never know how much it really increased their chances, so why complain about it? Uh, yeah I'd rather just go with the "pay him more money" option then. There is a baseline assumption that sox are being aggressive in obviously matching and exceeding the dollar amounts required and I don't assume that. Very much is a concern they are doing this as a "creative" workaround to paying the dollars required to land him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Context. If it's 4th and 12 on your 48 and you go for it yea we can question the process. Given that 29 other team s aren't going the friends and family plan I think this process is open to ridicule should it fail. So then you agree that they shouldn't try everything to convince hi. to come here. Edited January 8, 2019 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) What’s to prevent all the young impressionable members of the White Sox from wanting their own “Machado Treatment” when it comes to dealing with the ballclub in the future? Is Renteria going to bust everyone’s ass about hustling and let the veterans who are employed mostly to keep Manny contented on a losing team get a free pass? Something about this seems so anti-White Sox that it’s possible they’re the only team that could come up with such a cockamamie scheme like this. I know a team like St. Louis with their “Cardinals’ Way” would never elevate Heyward or David Price over the rest of the roster to sign them. Maybe we simply have no other choice. Edited January 8, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Unfortunately, you have no idea what the Sox do with their profits. You assume they just keep a bunch of excess cash on their balance sheet, but they may cash out each year and pay their owners a dividend. The reality is we have no idea how the Sox operate their business. In a Tribune article a few years ago, White Sox investors claimed they have never taken a dividend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, caulfield12 said: What’s to prevent all the young impressionable members of the White Sox from wanting their own “Machado Treatment” when it comes to dealing with the ballclub in the future? Is Renteria going to bust everyone’s ass about hustling and let the veterans who are connected to keep Manny contented on a losing team get a free pass? Something about this seems so anti-White Sox that it’s possible they’re the only team that could come up with such a cockamamie scheme like this. I know a team like St. Louis with their “Cardinals’ Way” would never elevate Heyward or David Price over the rest of the roster to sign them. Maybe we simply have no other choice. yeah well the cardinals haven't signed anyone big for a while despite making money hand over fist and the entire city claiming it's greatest in the world so maybe they screwed up then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, bmags said: yeah well the cardinals haven't signed anyone big for a while despite making money hand over fist and the entire city claiming it's greatest in the world so maybe they screwed up then. Or refusing to give those deals to Pujols, Heyward and Price is what has kept them so competitive in one of the smallest media markets. I guess we’ll see if the charm works on Goldschmidt. And, despite all his various complaints about the front office, the StL fan support definitely made a positive impression on Tommie Pham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 45 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: The $13 million, if not spent, would not magically disappear. It would still be available. It also wouldn't be sitting a checking account labeled "future free agency fund" as you seem to suggest. This is not how things work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roughneck Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bmags said: Uh, yeah I'd rather just go with the "pay him more money" option then. There is a baseline assumption that sox are being aggressive in obviously matching and exceeding the dollar amounts required and I don't assume that. Very much is a concern they are doing this as a "creative" workaround to paying the dollars required to land him. If it comes to that, you can light your torch from mine as we storm the G-Rate. But the vague reports we have so far say that the Sox are offering the most money. Maybe the Sox are saying to Machado "Money aside, 2019 is going to be a rough year on the field. But what if we made it a little more fun and let you play with your besties why we get the kids ready for our title run?" Might be a way to make the one should-be bad year of his contract more tolerable. 11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: What’s to prevent all the young impressionable members of the White Sox from wanting their own “Machado Treatment” when it comes to dealing with the ballclub in the future? Is Renteria going to bust everyone’s ass about hustling and let the veterans who are employed mostly to keep Manny contented on a losing team get a free pass? Something about this seems so anti-White Sox that it’s possible they’re the only team that could come up with such a cockamamie scheme like this. I know a team like St. Louis with their “Cardinals’ Way” would never elevate Heyward or David Price over the rest of the roster to sign them. Maybe we simply have no other choice. Are the young impressionable members of the Sox in the running for $300 mil contracts? Different rules. Besides, Jay and Alonso are at worst decent veterans. It's not like the Cavs putting Lebron's doofus friends on payroll. Edited January 8, 2019 by Roughneck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Or refusing to give those deals to Pujols, Heyward and Price is what has kept them so competitive in one of the smallest media markets. I guess we’ll see if the charm works on Goldschmidt. And, despite all his various complaints about the front office, the StL fan support definitely made a positive impression on Tommie Pham. They actually offered more money guaranteed money than the Cubs did for Heyward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 23 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said: If it works awesome, but honestly —is this is what we have to do to convince premier FAs to sign with us? Anyone else feel it’s just....kind of sad? We've been a sad organization for a while now. That's why signing either Manny or Bryce is such a big thing for this franchise. You get the on field benefits and it goes a long way in changing the perception of the team so maybe in the future we don't have to jump through all these hoops to get a premier fa to sign here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: It also wouldn't be sitting a checking account labeled "future free agency fund" as you seem to suggest. This is not how things work. Man, you sure are going to great lengths to defend the signing of Jon Jay even if Machado doesn't come along. Keep in mind the last time Jon Jay put up at least a 2.0 fWAR was 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I'll simplify for those catching up on this thread. The Sox signed Jay to a ONE YEAR, $4mm deal. He doesn't strikeout and has OBP better than 90% of the team. He can spell each of the guys in the OF as well as be a late inning replacement for Palka in almost every game. There are two sides of the argument here from what I can tell. Those who are always angry. Those who aren't. Also apparently now we have economic majors on the board who are arguing about JR's pocketbook and how this $4mm affects his ability to spend $4mm in 2025. Carry on. 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 To put it in perspective we signed Mat Latos to a 1 year, $3mm deal and let him go in May. Nobody cared. We also signed James McCann to a $2.5mm deal to play like 34 games at catcher. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 to put it in further perspective Jon Jay has STOLEN engel, Delmonico, cordell and tilsons future world series rings in 2023 by robbing them the opportunity to prove this year that they are part of a future world series roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said: I'll simplify for those catching up on this thread. The Sox signed Jay to a ONE YEAR, $4mm deal. He doesn't strikeout and has OBP better than 90% of the team. He can spell each of the guys in the OF as well as be a late inning replacement for Palka in almost every game. There are two sides of the argument here from what I can tell. Those who are always angry. Those who aren't. Also apparently now we have economic majors on the board who are arguing about JR's pocketbook and how this $4mm affects his ability to spend $4mm in 2025. Carry on. Very accurate re-cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said: To put it in perspective we signed Mat Latos to a 1 year, $3mm deal and let him go in May. Nobody cared. We also signed James McCann to a $2.5mm deal to play like 34 games at catcher. But then we were leading the AL Central on May 6th and because we hadn’t added a better option before the season, we spent $30-35 million more on Shields and traded away Tatis, Jr. (who’s worth how much surplus value?) $3 million led to a potential $100 million hole. All self induced. Heck, if we had Tatis, there’s a possibility we could get away with not spending $300 million on Machado. So make that $400 million. Edited January 8, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: Man, you sure are going to great lengths to defend the signing of Jon Jay even if Machado doesn't come along. Keep in mind the last time Jon Jay put up at least a 2.0 fWAR was 2012. Not really. I just think you're b****ing about nothing. $4M is nothing. Jon Jay is likely going to be the best OF the Sox have in their opening day lineup. We have no CF of consequence on the roster that is a future piece, and we have no CF prospect of consequence that will be ready until late 2019 (being generous here). Adam Engel sucks. He's a 4th OF if everything works out. I have no problem with him Jay and Engel platooning, or Engel going back to Charlotte. This improves the team (marginally) for 2019, and gives Manny another one of his boys to play with in what is likely a losing season in 2019. I see absolutely zero reason to be upset about this, but far from shocked that you found a way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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