Sox Sign Jon Jay; 1 year/$4 mil, Charlie Tilson DFA'd

[Jose Abreu]

18 minutes ago, aeichhor said:

 

Is Theo Epstein really a great judge of someone's character...?

[he gone.]

19 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

If they don't sign manny and jon jay nets the Sox the 5th pick instead of the 3rd imma bump this conversation my friend.  throwing a single penny at a marginal player like jay is a no go in a rebuild year.

This narrative bothers me. You can't cheer for a team to win 60 games every year. at some point the clubhouse needs to learn how to win and keep leads and build a culture. The tanking is over. Need to turn the page and improve now. There's a difference between tanking for a few years and becoming the Pirates and Royals of the world.

Also you don't build your team generally through the first round picks whether they are 3rd overall, 5th overall or 13th overall. example a) sale v fulmer example b) you build through ALL rounds of the draft + international and trades. It really doesn't matter that much if we pick 3rd or 8th IMO... You can argue that all you want but lets start with 2004 and Gio Gonzalez since he's still in the league... since that time you have Sale, Anderson and Rodon who have made a difference at the MLB level. I dare throw Beckham into the mix since he had a nice half year.. so you're talking 14 years and 3 guys who have done something.... really only 1 that has blown away his 1st round status.

Time's up on focusing on the 3rd pick overall and tanking. Can't have it both ways. Can't argue for the Sox to spend north of $300mm on Machado and to make this big push, but also take the side if it doesn't work out then you're going to march out Engel and Cordell out there. That's the whole reason no FA wants to come here.......

 

 

[GREEDY]

6 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

 

Can't have it both ways. Can't argue for the Sox to spend north of $300mm on Machado and to make this big push, but also take the side if it doesn't work out then you're going to march out Engel and Cordell out there. 

 

Sure you can.  Because you are getting Machado for multiple years.  In fact, Hahn said specifically that on MLB Network during the winter meetings.  He was only interested in players that would help the long term.  

 

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

This narrative bothers me. You can't cheer for a team to win 60 games every year. at some point the clubhouse needs to learn how to win and keep leads and build a culture. The tanking is over. Need to turn the page and improve now. There's a difference between tanking for a few years and becoming the Pirates and Royals of the world.

Also you don't build your team generally through the first round picks whether they are 3rd overall, 5th overall or 13th overall. example a) sale v fulmer example b) you build through ALL rounds of the draft + international and trades. It really doesn't matter that much if we pick 3rd or 8th IMO... You can argue that all you want but lets start with 2004 and Gio Gonzalez since he's still in the league... since that time you have Sale, Anderson and Rodon who have made a difference at the MLB level. I dare throw Beckham into the mix since he had a nice half year.. so you're talking 14 years and 3 guys who have done something.... really only 1 that has blown away his 1st round status.

Time's up on focusing on the 3rd pick overall and tanking. Can't have it both ways. Can't argue for the Sox to spend north of $300mm on Machado and to make this big push, but also take the side if it doesn't work out then you're going to march out Engel and Cordell out there. That's the whole reason no FA wants to come here.......

 

 

Outside of one exceptional circumstance, Jon Jay is not the difference between this team winning 60 games and learning how to win and keeping leads and building a culture. Jon Jay is not a solid part of building a team. Jon Jay playing substantial amounts of time in 2019 is focusing on the 3rd overall pick and tanking. Jon Jay played for the Royals and Diamondbacks last year - how about those winning cultures? Giving substantial amounts of playing time to players like Jon Jay is a reason why no FA should want to come here. 

If Machado signs, no complaints. You can drop all of this. But if you swapped out Engel for Jay last year, you'd go from 62 wins to...well you'd have a good shot at 62 wins but I guess people would feel better about our veteran culture. 

[chitownsportsfan]

Curses, culture?  Too many shitty players is what leads to bad teams.

Edited January 8, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Curses, culture?  Too many shitty players is what leads to bad teams.

Our last 2 signings played for the Royals in the first half of 2018. That's the kind of winning culture we need to develop.

[ScootsMcGoots]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Our last 2 signings played for the Royals in the first half of 2018. That's the kind of winning culture we need to develop.

Sarcastic much? lol

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Our last 2 signings played for the Royals in the first half of 2018. That's the kind of winning culture we need to develop.

Good point. Manny played for the Orioles. Hope the Sox stay away from him in this case.

[Sleepy Harold]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Our last 2 signings played for the Royals in the first half of 2018. That's the kind of winning culture we need to develop.

They absolutely were never a part of good teams in their recent past, not once not never no sir. 

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

They absolutely were never a part of good teams in their recent past, not once not never no sir. 

And when you added them to the Royals, that fixed their culture and their 2018 season was a spectacular experience. 

Either that, or we should laugh at the people who tell us how much more important some random veteran is to a winning culture than it is to "have good players". 

If having a winning culture is a thing then we need to dump Abreu because this team's culture has been trash his entire career.

It'd be nice if we just never had to hear about this again, but we always will so it's always deserving of scorn.

[TomPickle]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Our last 2 signings played for the Royals in the first half of 2018. That's the kind of winning culture we need to develop.

Kelvin Herrera has a World Series ring. How many other players on the White Sox roster can say the same? Just one, the other guy we signed.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, TomPickle said:

Kelvin Herrera has a World Series ring. How many other players on the White Sox roster can say the same? Just one, the other guy we signed.

James Shields has a Royals ALCS ring and I hear he's available. That'll help our culture improve over last year.

[TomPickle]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

And when you added them to the Royals, that fixed their culture and their 2018 season was a spectacular experience. 

Either that, or we should laugh at the people who tell us how much more important some random veteran is to a winning culture than it is to "have good players". 

If having a winning culture is a thing then we need to dump Abreu because this team's culture has been trash his entire career.

It'd be nice if we just never had to hear about this again, but we always will so it's always deserving of scorn.

I misunderstood your point and made my post before seeing this one. My bad.

Count me squarely in the "winning creates chemistry" camp. This off season just has me stir crazy.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

I misunderstood your point and made my post before seeing this one. My bad.

Count me squarely in the "winning creates chemistry" camp. This off season just has me stir crazy.

Much appreciated. I am also much more ok with getting good players than getting bad players who make other players feel better. 

[caulfield12]

LaRoche, Robertson and Melky were supposed to bring a “winning culture” with them as well...didn’t Melky have some kind of crazy streak of being on playoff teams?

While he’s probably better than Peter Bourjos, we would basically win the same amount of games if you ran 1000 simulations of the 2019 season with Engel or Jay as the starter.   He’s not really a true CFer anymore, but we can get away with it at GRF.

That said, without Machado around, his leash on the position is probably 6-8 weeks at best.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That said, without Machado around, his leash on the position is probably 6-8 weeks at best.

Jon Jay is a veteran. Assuming he stays healthy I imagine he will be starting almost every day, because classical managers always like playing veterans every day. It really won't matter how he performs, he'll help by his veteran grindyness. 

And it's not like there's an obvious CF candidate at Charlotte to replace him...at least not yet.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Jon Jay is a veteran. Assuming he stays healthy I imagine he will be starting almost every day, because classical managers always like playing veterans every day. It really won't matter how he performs, he'll help by his veteran grindyness. 

And it's not like there's an obvious CF candidate at Charlotte to replace him...at least not yet.

That’s the old Ozzie rule.   Juan Pierre, come on down.

The only one you can really argue is Basabe, but odds are his offensive weaknesses would be quickly exposed with where he’s at right now.  It’s possible if he gets really hot in the minors, they might see if they can catch lightning in a bottle, but counting on it would be about as wise as the Sox penciling Burdi into their late season playoff run the year he was drafted.

[greg775]

You all know greg is bizarre and some moves anger him and some don't. I'm trying to remain calm as I have off season, but I want to know how anybody on this board can be in favor of the Jay signing. I really don't want to hear about the intangibles involving he and Manny and he being best buds this time. He already has his brother in law on the team which is good nuff.

I want you advanced stat guys to tell me anything you like about Jay. He's everything "many" advanced stat people hate. Age: a negative. He had 527 at bats for gosh sakes and look at his production last year. He doesn't run, doesn't hit for any power, doesn't knock in runs, and doesn't draw an amazing amount of walks. It is an insult to this Sox fan that they'd release Avi and acquire Mr. Jay. Ugh.

Talk me off the ledge; I don't think you can unless you just say a.) if it helps us get Manny ... b.) he's better than Engel and not blocking anybody. c.) he's a good fourth outfielder. Give me anybody in our organization (especially Avi) over Jon Jay. Sorry if I am mad; I am who I am.

Edited January 8, 2019 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

Just now, greg775 said:

You all know greg is bizarre and some moves anger him and some don't. I'm trying to remain calm as I have off season, but I want to know how anybody on this board can be in favor of the Jay signing. I really don't want the intangibles about Manny and he being best buds this time. He already has his brother in law on the team which is good nuff.

I want you advanced stat guys to tell me anything you like about Jay. He's everything "many" advanced stat people hate. Age: a negative. He had 527 at bats for gosh sakes and look at his production last year. He doesn't run, doesn't hit for any power, doesn't knock in runs, and doesn't draw an amazing amount of walks. It is an insult to this Sox fan that they'd release Avi and acquire Mr. Jay. Ugh.

Talk me off the ledge; I don't think you can unless you just say a.) if it helps us get Manny ... b.) he's better than Engel and not blocking anybody. c.) he's a good fourth outfielder. Give me anybody in our organization (especially Avi) over Jon Jay. Sorry if I am mad; I am who I am.

I feel a lot better about liking this signing now.

[Roughneck]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

Talk me off the ledge

You shouldn't need to be talked off a ledge over a $4 mil one year contract for a decent veteran who is blocking nobody.

[greg775]

4 hours ago, Roughneck said:

Imagine getting so worked up over $4 mil. Imagine raging about a player based on a steamer projection. Imagine anything.

Acquiring guys like Jon Jay just rubs me the wrong way. What does he do well?? Again .. give me anybody in our minor league system (I know, nobody's ready, blah blah) over Jon Jay. I'd rather see some AA guy or AAA guy get a chance and have a revolving door over Jon Jay. I mean, geez, acquiring a guy like this is indefensible IMO.

[greg775]

4 minutes ago, Roughneck said:

You shouldn't need to be talked off a ledge over a $4 mil one year contract for a decent veteran who is blocking nobody.

Roughneck ... wouldn't you rather see anybody from our own system take Jon's at bats? I heard on the radio today in KC (don't blame the messenger) that baseball is in trouble because it's boring. It can't be helped when the White Sox give 300 to 500 at bats to Jon Jay. Good gosh Roughneck, why Jon Jay?? If we're going to lose, I enjoy seeing guys like Davidson and Palka occasionally rock one into the stratosphere. To me, that's excitement. Jon Jay? Oh well, I'll stop now. I'm sure Jon is a nice guy, etc.

Edited January 8, 2019 by greg775

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

Acquiring guys like Jon Jay just rubs me the wrong way. What does he do well?? Again .. give me anybody in our minor league system (I know, nobody's ready, blah blah) over Jon Jay. I'd rather see some AA guy or AAA guy get a chance and have a revolving door over Jon Jay. I mean, geez, acquiring a guy like this is indefensible IMO.

The only one who would take his spot is Adam Engel, the others are either > a few months away at least (Robert) or have failed to establish themselves at AAA (Cordell, others). It's $4 million for a lateral move from Engel to someone who was just about as good as Engel last year. Aside from the aspect of an unnamed 3b, it would be nothing to get excited about, and while it's a waste of money outside that context it's also nothing to be hugely annoyed about.

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Roughneck said:

You shouldn't need to be talked off a ledge over a $4 mil one year contract for a decent veteran who is blocking nobody.

I wish I had $1 for any time someone on a Sox-related message board opined that so and so signing for XXX amount of dollars wouldn’t have ANY effect on future payroll additions, oh, let’s say since 2006.

Then I could at least be as rich as Eric or Donald Jr.

Just two names, although neither are baseball-related due to foot related injuries.

Edited January 8, 2019 by caulfield12

[greg775]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The only one who would take his spot is Adam Engel, the others are either > a few months away at least (Robert) or have failed to establish themselves at AAA (Cordell, others). It's $4 million for a lateral move from Engel to someone who was just about as good as Engel last year. Aside from the aspect of an unnamed 3b, it would be nothing to get excited about, and while it's a waste of money outside that context it's also nothing to be hugely annoyed about.

I just get upset all the time when my favorite White Sox get released or reamed on the board by the analytical guys who are suddenly quiet regarding Jon Jay. I mean there's kind of a double standard when people ream me for loving guys like Davidson/Palka because their advanced stats blow, or worshiping Avi when it's pointed out he'll be too old to be on the WS teams and then we pick up a Jon Jay and nobody's outraged. In pure entertainment value, if Avi stays healthy, you get 30 home runs (EXCITEMENT). Nobody can deny he's not as bad as he once was defensively. There's something to be said bout watching a guy like Avi. What the hell is Jon gonna do next season to thrill anybody? Oh well, I don't think like most of you.

Edited January 8, 2019 by greg775