Is anyone else embarrassed and somewhat worried about the lengths White Sox going to get Machado?

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, SoxFanForever said:

The rebuild isn't going well?  If your expectation was for all of these guys to catch fire right out of the gate and be called up in 2018 maybe.

 

Lopez  had a very solid first season and looks to already be a mid-rotation starter.

Moncada, in what is considered a bad first full year still hit 17 HR, had 55 XBH and played solid defense.  

Eloy has raked in every level so far and looks to be no later than mid-April.

Cease looked excellent, especially after his promotion to AA and looks to be on the same trajectory as Kopech was in 2018.

Dunning - similar story to Cease.

Kopech looked like he belonged in the MLB prior to his injury and hopefully will bounce back to be excellent when he returns.

This is without even talking about guys like Basabe, Robert, Madrigal, etc. who are probably 2 years away.  To call the rebuild disappointing this early on is pretty ridiculous.

Kopech, Giolito and Moncada though are the main concerns...then you have lots of uncertainty with Dunning/Hansen and significant injury setbacks with Robert, Burger and Adolfo.   That’s not even counting all the questions about Fulmer/Collins/Burdi.

Cease and Jimenez...even positives from Rutherford/Gonzalez, and drafting Madrigal/Walker, can’t counterbalance all that.  

Tons of potential...but who knows much about where any of these guys end up other than Jimenez right now?

Yes, that’s pretty much the whole system, but overall...more down/red arrows than green ones.   Most/many thought at least 1 or 2 of the Kopech/Moncada/Gio trio would be absolute studs.

[SoxFanForever]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Kopech, Giolito and Moncada though are the main concerns...then you have lots of uncertainty with Dunning/Hansen and significant injury setbacks with Robert, Burger and Adolfo.   That’s not even counting all the questions about Fulmer/Collins/Burdi.

Cease and Jimenez...even positives from Rutherford/Gonzalez, and drafting Madrigal/Walker, can’t counterbalance all that.  

Tons of potential...but who knows much about where any of these guys end up other than Jimenez right now?

Yes, that’s pretty much the whole system, but overall...more down/red arrows than green ones.   Most/many thought at least 1 or 2 of the Kopech/Moncada/Gio trio would be absolute studs.

I think that's fair to say that a lot of it is unknown right now.  But, if we hit on even a quarter of these guys I think it has to be considered a success.  

I guess it just seems a bit early to me to call the rebuild a disappointment when there was a bit of bad injury luck and a lot of these guys were getting their first significant taste at the MLB level.

[fathom]

Just now, SoxFanForever said:

I think that's fair to say that a lot of it is unknown right now.  But, if we hit on even a quarter of these guys I think it has to be considered a success.  

I guess it just seems a bit early to me to call the rebuild a disappointment when there was a bit of bad injury luck and a lot of these guys were getting their first significant taste at the MLB level.

2018 was definitely challenging, but one thing it did was illustrate the need for some star-power from outside the organization.  Thus, why Manny makes sooooo much sense.  

[Roughneck]

2 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

I would give Lyle Mouton a 10 year, $20 million contract to play for the current White Sox

Fixed

[BlackSox13]

5 hours ago, SoxFanForever said:

I really don't get how he was 8th in MVP votes that year.  His numbers were just pure insanity.  Better than everyone above him.

I think it was more to do with who he was and not what had done. Joey wasn't very well liked in baseball.

[vilehoopster]

"Moncada, in what is considered a bad first full year still hit 17 HR, had 55 XBH and played solid defense."

Come on, man, it WAS a bad first full year, just plan bad. When we got him, he was considered the # 1 prospect in all of baseball. What was it, 210 strike outs or something like that? You can't put a good face on that. Also, his defense was far, far from solid. I would use the adjective terrible. Yes, great arm strength and coverage range, and I am confident that he will soon play very good defense, but last year was not solid. You lose credibility when you say otherwise. 

Also, let's compare his year with the most recent # 1 prospect in all of baseball,  Acuna. Last year Acuna hit .293 with 26 home runs and he did it in almost 150 less at bats. That's what I would expect from a # 1 prospect in all of baseball in his first year, not .234 and an OBP of .315. 

Now, I'm not saying that Moncada is a bust, nor is the rebuild a bust. But the truth is that Moncada is coming along significantly slower when anyone (realistically) expected. Let's hope that next year is a break-thru year for him and his talent or the rebuild will certainly take a setback. 

[southsider2k5]

49 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

"Moncada, in what is considered a bad first full year still hit 17 HR, had 55 XBH and played solid defense."

Come on, man, it WAS a bad first full year, just plan bad. When we got him, he was considered the # 1 prospect in all of baseball. What was it, 210 strike outs or something like that? You can't put a good face on that. Also, his defense was far, far from solid. I would use the adjective terrible. Yes, great arm strength and coverage range, and I am confident that he will soon play very good defense, but last year was not solid. You lose credibility when you say otherwise. 

Also, let's compare his year with the most recent # 1 prospect in all of baseball,  Acuna. Last year Acuna hit .293 with 26 home runs and he did it in almost 150 less at bats. That's what I would expect from a # 1 prospect in all of baseball in his first year, not .234 and an OBP of .315. 

Now, I'm not saying that Moncada is a bust, nor is the rebuild a bust. But the truth is that Moncada is coming along significantly slower when anyone (realistically) expected. Let's hope that next year is a break-thru year for him and his talent or the rebuild will certainly take a setback. 

You do realize a guy can both be the #1 prospect in baseball and be raw with some holes, right?

[SCCWS]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You do realize a guy can both be the #1 prospect in baseball and be raw with some holes, right?

Agree but in hindsight, a player who is raw with some holes probably should have spent more time in AAA

[BFirebird]

On 1/8/2019 at 11:12 AM, bschmaranz said:

Yup, that's where it gets embarassing imo, we can't let the big boys crush us with their wallets.

I agree with this 100%. We cannot be outbid. 

[iWiN4PreP]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You do realize a guy can both be the #1 prospect in baseball and be raw with some holes, right?

And you realize what expectations are, correct? Especially for a #1 prospect in baseball, one that we sold Chris Sale for?

[greg775]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

"Moncada, in what is considered a bad first full year still hit 17 HR, had 55 XBH and played solid defense."

Come on, man, it WAS a bad first full year, just plan bad. When we got him, he was considered the # 1 prospect in all of baseball. What was it, 210 strike outs or something like that? You can't put a good face on that. Also, his defense was far, far from solid. I would use the adjective terrible. Yes, great arm strength and coverage range, and I am confident that he will soon play very good defense, but last year was not solid. You lose credibility when you say otherwise. 

Also, let's compare his year with the most recent # 1 prospect in all of baseball,  Acuna. Last year Acuna hit .293 with 26 home runs and he did it in almost 150 less at bats. That's what I would expect from a # 1 prospect in all of baseball in his first year, not .234 and an OBP of .315. 

Now, I'm not saying that Moncada is a bust, nor is the rebuild a bust. But the truth is that Moncada is coming along significantly slower when anyone (realistically) expected. Let's hope that next year is a break-thru year for him and his talent or the rebuild will certainly take a setback. 

I like Moncada a lot and he passes my eye test. I laugh though when they use traditional stats to praise certain guys. 17 HR? What?

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

And you realize what expectations are, correct? Especially for a #1 prospect in baseball, one that we sold Chris Sale for?

If your expectations were instant star, that was nuts.

[Flash]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I like Moncada a lot and he passes my eye test. I laugh though when they use traditional stats to praise certain guys. 17 HR? What?

Knowing what you know now, would you make that trade over again if you are Sox?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Knowing what you know now, would you make that trade over again if you are Sox?

Obviously not with the Kopech injury.

The problem is we were never getting Benintendi, and the bloom is off the Devers rose a bit now as well.

[Flash Tizzle]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If your expectations were instant star, that was nuts.

What’s a realistic expectation though? We cannot have this rebuild move forward unless players like Moncada and Giolitto take huge strides forward. And quickly. Everyone cant be on a “well, let’s wait 3-4 years for them to adjust” timeline or else this rebuild won’t work. 

Eventually, someone like Jimenez or Cease needs to be an instant star. Every team who has successfully rebuilt their team has had the instant breakout prospects. That’s how we’ll sustain success, by having a core group of prospects contributing alongside the veterans.

 

[greg775]

12 hours ago, Flash said:

Knowing what you know now, would you make that trade over again if you are Sox?

Welll, that is a great question, an amazing question. I love(d) Sale and stood up for him on here when he clipped the jerseys in anger of having to wear them. My take was if he's uncomfortable, don't wear them and risk some arm injury in them. But ... I like what I've seen from Moncada a lot. Now that we are going to pay Manny, it proves we could have paid Sale. Damn, your question is a great one. I will say if you told me we could sign Sale I would not make the deal all over again. I am not alarmed at Moncada's K's BTW. it's obvious the umps had something against the kid calling him out on balls outside the zone way too often for it to be a coincidence. He was professional about it so I sense him getting the calls soon and I like patient hitters like the Big Hurt and Moncada. He could be special.

Edited January 18, 2019 by greg775

[Greg Hibbard]

14 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

"Moncada, in what is considered a bad first full year still hit 17 HR, had 55 XBH and played solid defense."

Come on, man, it WAS a bad first full year, just plan bad. When we got him, he was considered the # 1 prospect in all of baseball. What was it, 210 strike outs or something like that? You can't put a good face on that. Also, his defense was far, far from solid. I would use the adjective terrible. Yes, great arm strength and coverage range, and I am confident that he will soon play very good defense, but last year was not solid. You lose credibility when you say otherwise. 

Also, let's compare his year with the most recent # 1 prospect in all of baseball,  Acuna. Last year Acuna hit .293 with 26 home runs and he did it in almost 150 less at bats. That's what I would expect from a # 1 prospect in all of baseball in his first year, not .234 and an OBP of .315. 

Now, I'm not saying that Moncada is a bust, nor is the rebuild a bust. But the truth is that Moncada is coming along significantly slower when anyone (realistically) expected. Let's hope that next year is a break-thru year for him and his talent or the rebuild will certainly take a setback. 

You mention those 210 strikeouts in a vacuum. Do you disagree that Moncada got rung up on called third strikes that were actually balls at an unprecedented rate? Because that's what the stats say. Do me a favor, as a mental exercise, just please turn 10 of those strikeouts into walks and get back to me and see where his numbers might have been if the umps were where they would have been with literally any other player.

Also, let's please contextualize Moncada's age. He missed nearly 18 months of baseball at a critical time waiting to get over here. That doesn't happen to most 23 year olds. Do you utterly discount that? In baseball years, he's more like 21 1/2. Can you imagine where he might be at 25-26-27-28?

Edited January 18, 2019 by Greg Hibbard

[SoxBlanco]

46 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

You mention those 210 strikeouts in a vacuum. Do you disagree that Moncada got rung up on called third strikes that were actually balls at an unprecedented rate? Because that's what the stats say. Do me a favor, as a mental exercise, just please turn 10 of those strikeouts into walks and get back to me and see where his numbers might have been if the umps were where they would have been with literally any other player.

Also, let's please contextualize Moncada's age. He missed nearly 18 months of baseball at a critical time waiting to get over here. That doesn't happen to most 23 year olds. Do you utterly discount that? In baseball years, he's more like 21 1/2. Can you imagine where he might be at 25-26-27-28?

I am a huge Moncada supporter and I think he will continue to get better, but one thing I never do to defend him is point to the amount of times he struck out on questionable calls. When you take that many close pitches with two strikes, you are bound to lead the league in the amount of times you get rung up when the pitch is actually a ball.

[Balta1701]

Today, Yes. 

[Quin]

On 1/8/2019 at 12:41 PM, Quin said:

If Machado signs, not at all.

If he doesn't, kinda.

I'd like to change my vote to extremely

[Superstar Lamar]

I know it would not be rational to boo Alonso and Jay all season but I'm not feeling very rational right now.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

I know it would not be rational to boo Alonso and Jay all season but I'm not feeling very rational right now.

If you're going to do that, watch on your TV and stay away from games. That is ignorant. 

[Superstar Lamar]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If you're going to do that, watch on your TV and stay away from games. That is ignorant. 

Nope.  I'm going to try to buy a ticket next to you

[Bob Sacamano]

Noooooow it's embarassing.

[hi8is]

Manny, is that you?