Joc Pederson: ??​​​​​​​?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

[Balta1701]

11 minutes ago, mqr said:

I think having jay/pederson in center is exactly why you want to carry Engel also. I’d guess the bench would be Leury, Sanchez, McCann, Engel

I know he's probably not a starter, but worth noting that this setup makes Jose Rondon a roster casualty, and he's at the least a potential IF utility guy. 

[RTC]

16 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Quick thoughts:

Joc Pederson would be an upgrade and a perfect mid-level player with a short term contract, and ability to possibly over-perform. He's a perfect bridge type player. If a Tilson, Cordell, Engel, or Palka performed as well as he has, does, and will we would be very happy. I mean... Palka did and look at the love fest surrounding him. As I've stated before none of these guys are part of the future... Palka included. Pederson included. This is a two year fix until we hopefully get one or two of our younger OF's up. Pederson gives us a better chance to field a competitive team in 2019 and 2020. He has a similar profile to Palka, just higher upside and can play the field better. Simple as that.

Sox fans need to really start separating themselves from some of these players.. Palka, Yolmer, Leury are not your keys to success. As I've stated many times before try fitting those guys on the Yankees, Astros, Red Sox... Yolmer is about the only one that could have a future with this team. The rest won't sniff any Sox team that has a true chance at the WS.

This.  Absolutely this.

I get liking a player on your team.  Even one that you know is not that great.  I really liked Chris Getz when he was on the Sox, for reasons I really can't explain.  But I knew he wasn't even remotely an answer to anything, with the possible exception of the question "Who are the mediocre players on your team?".  You can like guys but be realistic.  BA nails it above.  If you want to see what depth looks like on a team that contends for a championship these days (not in 2005), look at the lineups for NY, Boston, or Houston.  

I think maybe it's just that Sox fans eyes have glazed over because we've gotten so used to watching a big giant pile of meh (#miredinmediocrity).  When we see anyone that shows even the slightest bit of talent we get excited.  Some people are so intent about hanging on to guys like Palka or Leury or "giving them a chance to show what they've got" while the Yankees are trying to figure out how to upgrade from a guy (Andujar) who would be one of the best players on the Sox, because they want even better.  And, no, I'm not saying Joc Pederson is the second coming of anything.  But compared to Palka, Joc does more things better.  Plain and simple.  He's a bridge for a couple years which, AT BEST, is all Palka would be.  And Joc is a better bridge.

Another thing that I think folks are missing is competitiveness in 2019.  I totally get it when anyone thinks why bother with Joc because they're not competing in 2019 anyway - just see what Palka can give you (but see my points above).  I think what everyone is missing is I'm really getting the impression that the Sox think they can compete in 2019 if they get Manny.  So whether any of us think that's realistic or not, if that's what they believe, well, there's your answer as to why they'd want someone like Joc.

[bschmaranz]

I mostly want this to happen so we can start a fan club called the "Joc Flock".

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, RTC said:

This.  Absolutely this.

I get liking a player on your team.  Even one that you know is not that great.  I really liked Chris Getz when he was on the Sox, for reasons I really can't explain.  But I knew he wasn't even remotely an answer to anything, with the possible exception of the question "Who are the mediocre players on your team?".  You can like guys but be realistic.  BA nails it above.  If you want to see what depth looks like on a team that contends for a championship these days (not in 2005), look at the lineups for NY, Boston, or Houston.  

I think maybe it's just that Sox fans eyes have glazed over because we've gotten so used to watching a big giant pile of meh (#miredinmediocrity).  When we see anyone that shows even the slightest bit of talent we get excited.  Some people are so intent about hanging on to guys like Palka or Leury or "giving them a chance to show what they've got" while the Yankees are trying to figure out how to upgrade from a guy (Andujar) who would be one of the best players on the Sox, because they want even better.  And, no, I'm not saying Joc Pederson is the second coming of anything.  But compared to Palka, Joc does more things better.  Plain and simple.  He's a bridge for a couple years which, AT BEST, is all Palka would be.  And Joc is a better bridge.

Another thing that I think folks are missing is competitiveness in 2019.  I totally get it when anyone thinks why bother with Joc because they're not competing in 2019 anyway - just see what Palka can give you (but see my points above).  I think what everyone is missing is I'm really getting the impression that the Sox think they can compete in 2019 if they get Manny.  So whether any of us think that's realistic or not, if that's what they believe, well, there's your answer as to why they'd want someone like Joc.

Ok, I'd like to do exactly what you say to do. I'm looking at the Astros lineup and stats last year. Let's take one of those positions you mention - Palka and the DH slot. Last year, the Astros primary DH was Evan Gattis, and they also rotated a n umber of people there. Evan Gattis put up 0.4 rWAR, a .736 OPS, and was paid just under $7 million for that. Marwin Gonzalez put up a .733 OPS for them and 2.5 WAR because he got a lot of at bats filling in for the injured Correa. Jake Marisnick put up 1.7 WAR and a .674 OPS because he was their utility OF and defensive replacement. 

These are guys like Palka and Leury. They're not great players on their own, but they have a couple benefits - they fill a role, they're already there, and they are cheap. Some of these positions we need to upgrade over - I'm about done with Leury for example as I don't think he can stay healthy, but there's a fair question here. Pederson will be paid like $5 million this year and it will take trading some player of decent talent to get him. Yes, he's an upgrade over Jay in CF, but that upgrade isn't free. You're spending more money and giving up a player who the Dodgers want somewhere, and you're doing it for a moderate upgrade over guys that the Sox already have come up with. 

So is it true the Astros have no one like Palka? I very much disagree, their team put up a .749 OPS out of the DH spot last year and we outhit that thanks to Palka. Is Pederson on paper an upgrade over Palka in the OF? Yes. Is he worth the cost to the White Sox? Well as you said, only if you think this team is going to be 28 wins better than last year and you need Pederson to push it to 30. 

[mqr]

48 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Sox fans need to really start separating themselves from some of these players.. Palka, Yolmer, Leury are not your keys to success.

Totally agree, but Yolmer is the kind of guy, assuming the Sox can establish stars, that will be the difference between 2015/2016 and 202*.

[GREEDY]

What does Joc have left?  Two years of control?

Sounds like another stop-gap from the GM that said they were only interested in long term solutions.

Glad all the posters here that are so desperate to win 75 games are getting their way.  

[shipps]

1 minute ago, GREEDY said:

What does Joc have left?  Two years of control?

Sounds like another stop-gap from the GM that said they were only interested in long term solutions.

Glad all the posters here that are so desperate to win 75 games are getting their way.  

I must have missed it when Hahn said he only wanted long term solutions. 

[xSouthsider2]

Even if the Sox sign Machado, there is still money available. Maybe even enough for Harper, but that is not realistic. That would be too much tied up in two players while we still don't know for sure what we have on the farm. So why not take on most of Hill's salary plus Joc and NOT have to give up much in trade? Hill could help stabilize the rotation for our young guys and take some pressure off. Then there is money in 2020 and future for holes the farm does not fill.

 

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, Mooseman said:

If I had to guess this all depends on MAchado. If Manny signed with the Sox today things would progress quick with a Pederson trade. Something like:

Sox get- Pederson

Dodgers get- Marte, Bummer and Fulmer

Pirates get- Bush, +

Eew. So we’re trading Bummer, Fulmer, and Bush for Pederson?

Not buying it.

[mqr]

4 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

What does Joc have left?  Two years of control?

Sounds like another stop-gap from the GM that said they were only interested in long term solutions.

Glad all the posters here that are so desperate to win 75 games are getting their way.  

Nobody that is going to important to this window is going to go anywhere. Get players who can actually play baseball. 

[xSouthsider2]

While I would love to contend in 2019, there is one caveat. If Nova is the only vet in the rotation could our young arms in the rotation extend into a post season without risking injury? Both Cease and Giolito have had TJ. Rodon had the shoulder. I think if post season is a goal if we got Machado, then we would need to spend some money on the rotation. IE, Hill(take on his salary and NOT give up much in prospect capital) and/or Keuchal?

[fathom]

I can’t see the Pirates unloading the farm for Archer, only to turn around and trade Marte for prospects.

[he gone.]

21 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok, I'd like to do exactly what you say to do. I'm looking at the Astros lineup and stats last year. Let's take one of those positions you mention - Palka and the DH slot. Last year, the Astros primary DH was Evan Gattis, and they also rotated a n umber of people there. Evan Gattis put up 0.4 rWAR, a .736 OPS, and was paid just under $7 million for that. Marwin Gonzalez put up a .733 OPS for them and 2.5 WAR because he got a lot of at bats filling in for the injured Correa. Jake Marisnick put up 1.7 WAR and a .674 OPS because he was their utility OF and defensive replacement. 

These are guys like Palka and Leury. They're not great players on their own, but they have a couple benefits - they fill a role, they're already there, and they are cheap. Some of these positions we need to upgrade over - I'm about done with Leury for example as I don't think he can stay healthy, but there's a fair question here. Pederson will be paid like $5 million this year and it will take trading some player of decent talent to get him. Yes, he's an upgrade over Jay in CF, but that upgrade isn't free. You're spending more money and giving up a player who the Dodgers want somewhere, and you're doing it for a moderate upgrade over guys that the Sox already have come up with. 

So is it true the Astros have no one like Palka? I very much disagree, their team put up a .749 OPS out of the DH spot last year and we outhit that thanks to Palka. Is Pederson on paper an upgrade over Palka in the OF? Yes. Is he worth the cost to the White Sox? Well as you said, only if you think this team is going to be 28 wins better than last year and you need Pederson to push it to 30. 

Just FYI, Gattis got like 100 AB's post all star break. Marisnick got 57 ab's post all star break and was largely replaced by Tony Kemp. And Marwin is Yolmer but with more positional capabilities. The fact is those who weren't cutting it were quickly cut off. Palka would have had a shot at playing on the Astros, but not sure he'd even get the chance.

Here's a list of players who didn't get an extended chance because of the talent level at the MLB level. Tyler White, Tony Kemp, JD Davis, Kyle Tucker, Derek Fischer over the guys we rolled out there in 2018. Not to mention add Yordan Alvarez to that list this year. And they went out and signed Brantley..

[he gone.]

Also, Palka barely has room on this team after 62 wins and signing Jay and possibly acquiring Pederson .... I think that says about as much as anything else on his actual value.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Also, Palka barely has room on this team after 62 wins and signing Jay and possibly acquiring Pederson .... I think that says about as much as anything else on his actual value.

"Because he has an option left we're willing to send him to the minors for worse players if it also means landing Manny Machado". 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I think the Dodgers could do a lot better than a run of the mill lefty reliever, and a guy who has done nothing but struggle since he turned professional for Pederson. I could understand them taking that return if the Sox were taking Hill off their hands, but no way if bad money isn’t included. I would think either Hahn has to give up a guy like Basabe or Bush, or Joc won’t be playing for the White Sox.

I don’t think Bummer is a run-of-the-mill lefty.  He’s got pretty damn good stuff and had excellent peripherals last year.  He’s also major league ready, pre-arb, and with multiple options.  I actually think a lot of teams would have interest in him.  Carson is obviously a total wild card with limited value, but given how poorly we’ve handled him I wouldn’t be surprised if there were teams eager to get him with their coaching staff and see if they can turn him around.

I agree, it doesn’t feel like enough at face value, but then again I don’t see how Hahn makes this move unless the price is in his favor.

[RTC]

35 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok, I'd like to do exactly what you say to do. I'm looking at the Astros lineup and stats last year. Let's take one of those positions you mention - Palka and the DH slot. Last year, the Astros primary DH was Evan Gattis, and they also rotated a n umber of people there. Evan Gattis put up 0.4 rWAR, a .736 OPS, and was paid just under $7 million for that. Marwin Gonzalez put up a .733 OPS for them and 2.5 WAR because he got a lot of at bats filling in for the injured Correa. Jake Marisnick put up 1.7 WAR and a .674 OPS because he was their utility OF and defensive replacement. 

These are guys like Palka and Leury. They're not great players on their own, but they have a couple benefits - they fill a role, they're already there, and they are cheap. Some of these positions we need to upgrade over - I'm about done with Leury for example as I don't think he can stay healthy, but there's a fair question here. Pederson will be paid like $5 million this year and it will take trading some player of decent talent to get him. Yes, he's an upgrade over Jay in CF, but that upgrade isn't free. You're spending more money and giving up a player who the Dodgers want somewhere, and you're doing it for a moderate upgrade over guys that the Sox already have come up with. 

So is it true the Astros have no one like Palka? I very much disagree, their team put up a .749 OPS out of the DH spot last year and we outhit that thanks to Palka. Is Pederson on paper an upgrade over Palka in the OF? Yes. Is he worth the cost to the White Sox? Well as you said, only if you think this team is going to be 28 wins better than last year and you need Pederson to push it to 30. 

I hear you, but I didn't mean to imply teams have no Palkas.  This is why I suggested looking "depth" on contending teams, not "individual guys".  I'm sorry if it came across that way.  But the players you bring up sort of reinforce my point. 

- From everything I've read this winter, upgrading over Gattis is a priority because they want better production than .4 WAR.  Honestly they probably would've loved to have Joc Pederson at DH with his 2.3 WAR.

- Marwin Gonzalez at 2.5 would have been the third best player on the Sox.  Marwin friggin Gonazales

- And their utility infielder (Marisnick) put up 1.7 WAR, which is what the Sox starting 1B put up.

- Astros had 20 players at 1.0 WAR or higher.  Sox had 10 (FYI, Dodgers had 17, Red Sox had 17)

- Astros had 10 players at 2.0 WAR or higher.  Sox had 5 (Dodgers had 13, Red Sox had 10)

- Astros had 5 players at 3.5 WAR or higher.  Sox had none (Dodgers had 6, Red Sox had 6)

I hear what you're saying, I guess my point was in the scheme of constructing a lineup the Daniel Palkas of the world aren't worth losing any sleep over - there's bigger fish to fry.  That's all.  The Sox problem is not whether to keep Palka or not, it's that they don't have enough players that are significantly better than Palka or Gattis.  

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t think Bummer is a run-of-the-mill lefty.  He’s got pretty damn good stuff and had excellent peripherals last year.  He’s also major league ready, pre-arb, and with multiple options.  I actually think a lot of teams would have interest in him.  Carson is obviously a total wild card with limited value, but given how poorly we’ve handled him I wouldn’t be surprised if there were teams eager to get him with their coaching staff and see if they can turn him around.

I agree, it doesn’t feel like enough at face value, but then again I don’t see how Hahn makes this move unless the price is in his favor.

I would happily move Fulmer for basically anything at this point but I can't believe the Dodgers wouldn't get substantially better offers than that. I think we'll be using Fulmer's roster spot elsewhere soon enough, so if you can get anything for him that's gravy.

[ChiSox59]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"Because he has an option left we're willing to send him to the minors for worse players if it also means landing Manny Machado". 

Who is the worse player in this scenario? 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, RTC said:

I hear you, but I didn't mean to imply teams have no Palkas.  This is why I suggested looking "depth" on contending teams, not "individual guys".  I'm sorry if it came across that way.  But the players you bring up sort of reinforce my point. 

- From everything I've read this winter, upgrading over Gattis is a priority because they want better production than .4 WAR.  Honestly they probably would've loved to have Joc Pederson at DH with his 2.3 WAR.

- Marwin Gonzalez at 2.5 would have been the third best player on the Sox.  Marwin friggin Gonazales

- And their utility infielder (Marisnick) put up 1.7 WAR, which is what the Sox starting 1B put up.

- Astros had 20 players at 1.0 WAR or higher.  Sox had 10 (FYI, Dodgers had 17, Red Sox had 17)

- Astros had 10 players at 2.0 WAR or higher.  Sox had 5 (Dodgers had 13, Red Sox had 10)

- Astros had 5 players at 3.5 WAR or higher.  Sox had none (Dodgers had 6, Red Sox had 6)

I hear what you're saying, I guess my point was in the scheme of constructing a lineup the Daniel Palkas of the world aren't worth losing any sleep over - there's bigger fish to fry.  That's all.  The Sox problem is not whether to keep Palka or not, it's that they don't have enough players that are significantly better than Palka or Gattis.  

When the Astros have 10 more players than the White Sox with 1 WAR, there's 2 problems - the White Sox don't have enough players better than Palka or Gattis and they also don't have enough players who are comparable to those.

So here's your question then - hypothetically speaking let's say we had to trade Bummer and Fulmer for Pederson and that removed Palka from the lineup. That gives us 1 extra player who had >2 WAR, but it could very well remove two ~1 WAR players - Bummer put up 0.7 last year and Palka put up 0.5, both of them in incomplete seasons with time in the minors. So yes you get better at the top, but you also have less depth. 

[GreenSox]

Palka has played in the majors for one year.   Sure there are gaps in his game, but there was also some promise.  There is no way that Jay would push aside Palka (or really anyone), especially on a rebuilding team.   Neither would Alonso.   I hope we sign Machado - that's Jay's (and Alonso's) value.
Aren't there any FOM's that pitch?

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Who is the worse player in this scenario? 

Jay I think.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

Jay I think.

Palka is not a better baseball player than Jon Jay. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Who is the worse player in this scenario? 

Alonso at the DH spot is a clear downgrade from Palka with the bat last year.

[iWiN4PreP]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

When the Astros have 10 more players than the White Sox with 1 WAR, there's 2 problems - the White Sox don't have enough players better than Palka or Gattis and they also don't have enough players who are comparable to those.

So here's your question then - hypothetically speaking let's say we had to trade Bummer and Fulmer for Pederson and that removed Palka from the lineup. That gives us 1 extra player who had >2 WAR, but it could very well remove two ~1 WAR players - Bummer put up 0.7 last year and Palka put up 0.5, both of them in incomplete seasons with time in the minors. So yes you get better at the top, but you also have less depth. 

I think the biggest takeaway from that post is the 3.5 WAR players. We have 0, while Dodgers/Red Sox had 6 and Astros at 5. 

Those types of players don't grow on trees like 1.0 WAR players do.