Tax Refunds

[raBBit]

15 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, it is a cash grab that also increases the education level of the country. 

In no way was I patting the government on the back for this; it's merely a reason they will use to rationalize the loan offerings to people without incomes. It is viewed as an investment. 

Whoopdie doo. I am sure the 29-year-old Poly Sci grad making 35k a year can take solace in the education level of the country while they wallow in debt with no foreseeable end as the government benefits off of the decision they made following their prom dance. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, KiwiSox said:

There is an unlimited quantity of information and knowledge available for free, or nearly for free, on the internet. Three months of diligently using Codeacademy and anyone, literally anyone, can waltz into a middle class income. There was a time when schools and institutions were responsible for education but that time has mostly passed. Of course if someone wants to be a doctor or pilot they should go through the formal training, but if the goal is just to "make it" there are paths for everyone to be successful no matter their station.

 Really, if you're poor in America its your own damn fault. People hate hearing that but its true. The wages there are so ridiculously high and costs so ridiculously low, I dont think Americans realize how difficult it is in other countries. I love life here and am never turning back but if I ever were I know that life in America, at least from a money perspective, is like the easy-mode setting on a video game.

There are many countries in the world with a better quality of living than the USA, right?

It is not easy mode either. I honestly have no idea where you get this type of information.

Middle class wages in America - when accounting for inflation - have been stagnant for nearly 4 decades. There has been no economic growth for the vast majority of American's over a 40 year window, while a very select percentage have seen their income grow by more than 3000%. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Whoopdie doo. I am sure the 29-year-old Poly Sci grad making 35k a year can take solace in the education level of the country while they wallow in debt with no foreseeable end as the government benefits off of the decision they made following their prom dance. 

The government would be attacked equally so if they denied student loans based on majors and told only certain kids with certain career aspirations that they could get the opportunity. Even though I agree that it's reckless lending, it's also not their place to discriminate loans for education based on majors - however damning and telling the earning potential is for certain ones. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, KiwiSox said:

Open a new tab in the same browser window you are viewing this forum. 

You now have access to an indexed collection of mankind's cumulative knowledge. It took you about eight seconds. And your right to peruse it is absolute, guarded by the first amendment to the founding document of your country. If you aren't educated in America these days that is entirely on you.

Let me know how you get a job with your education listing being as follows:

Codeacademy 

Khan Academy

Believe it or not, but hiring managers aren't exactly blown away by those credentials.... and I'm pretty sure you will be removed from any candidacy list that is withered down by machine scanning. At least with coding, you can either do it or you can't. Not much else to it. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I have no issues with tax dollars; they are a necessary evil. I just want them to be appropriated properly. 

I just find it ironic that you judge people of less fortune when you, yourself, depended on others to pay for your education. Others aren't so lucky for that to be an option. You think it was hard work that got you where you are, but would you be there if you had to pay yourself? Why didn't you work hard - outside the military - to pay your own tuition? Why did you chose a route in which tax payers pay if it's all about how hard one works?

I grew up in River Forest - struggling is not something I have personally endured... far from it, but I have met and worked with people of all walks of life who did not have the privileges I was given growing up - a great school system, parents that could support me to the point where that never was a concern for me, and supportive parents who pushed and motivated me because they could afford Montessori schools, great child care and etc. What you fail to understand is that those are huge benefits, and judging those who don't receive them is naive. When you are worried about whether or not your mom will eat tonight or have enough food for you... worried about whether you can walk to the closest place with wifi because it's night time and dangerous... maybe then you'll understand that obstacles can deter a childs path to success much easier than adults - who themselves are already easily taken off task. Children that have to worry about every thing in their lives - unable to simply focus on school and friends etc - are going to have a harder time achieving the goals that someone without those speed bumps has. It's just a fact of life. 

The whole... work hard and succeed thing is obviously nonsensical. It's why parental income is correlated so heavily to childrens success. 

Even just the idea that rich kids can afford college while everyone else can either take huge loans out or go risk their lives for the chance to go to college later is a telling way to caste society. 

[KiwiSox]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

There are many countries in the world with a better quality of living than the USA, right?

It is not easy mode either. I honestly have no idea where you get this type of information.

Middle class wages in America - when accounting for inflation - have been stagnant for nearly 4 decades. There has been no economic growth for the vast majority of American's over a 40 year window, while a very select percentage have seen their income grow by more than 3000%. 

Are you talking about quality of life or economic growth? Because in the past forty years you have gained access to things like ultra low-cost air travel and a pocket supercomputer. Go back only twenty years and tell somebody you can pull a little machine out of your pocket and use it to book a flight from Chicago to Los Angeles for $75. They'd slap the shit out of you!

On wages specifically, the fact that people are content working absolutely dead-end jobs is their own problem. There are many ways to develop skills that can be accomplished totally independently and put someone on a career path for decent money.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, KiwiSox said:

Are you talking about quality of life or economic growth? Because in the past forty years you have gained access to things like ultra low-cost air travel and a pocket supercomputer. Go back only twenty years and tell somebody you can pull a little machine out of your pocket and use it to book a flight from Chicago to Los Angeles for $75. They'd slap the shit out of you!

On wages specifically, the fact that people are content working absolutely dead-end jobs is their own problem. There are many ways to develop skills that can be accomplished totally independently and put someone on a career path for decent money.

Content working dead end jobs? My goodness. It's called bills and a lifestyle; family, education, and a home aren't free bud. 

Once again, you continue to act as if you can get a job in a high earning field by browsing the internet for free courses. Those credentials will get you laughed out of any hiring managers office. College is as much about education as it is networking too; good luck meeting people at free online courses. Good luck beating out candidates with Ivy credentials and etc. 

[KiwiSox]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Let me know how you get a job with your education listing being as follows:

Codeacademy 

Khan Academy

Believe it or not, but hiring managers aren't exactly blown away by those credentials.... and I'm pretty sure you will be removed from any candidacy list that is withered down by machine scanning. At least with coding, you can either do it or you can't. Not much else to it. 

If an employer thinks you have enough knowledge that they can use you to at least debug some code you'll find someone to hire you. The pay wont be good, but then you'll be building resume experience. Life in America isn't great on $30k a year but its also not impossible, and the point of such jobs is that after a year or two of wallowing in it you develop even more experience and skills so you can find yourself something better. Repeat that process a couple times and you're making an upper middle-class income and enjoying a salary that is basically impossible anywhere (and I mean anywhere) else in the world.

That's why I'm saying its easy mode. Like in Europe everyone has a degree and nobody has a damn job. 30 year olds living with their parents. Australia and NZ? You are happy just to get that $30k. Little less so in Aussie, but in New Zealand? Man there just aren't opportunities past that entry level. The whole country is the size of metropolitan Dallas.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, KiwiSox said:

If an employer thinks you have enough knowledge that they can use you to at least debug some code you'll find someone to hire you. The pay wont be good, but then you'll be building resume experience. Life in America isn't great on $30k a year but its also not impossible, and the point of such jobs is that after a year or two of wallowing in it you develop even more experience and skills so you can find yourself something better. Repeat that process a couple times and you're making an upper middle-class income and enjoying a salary that is basically impossible anywhere (and I mean anywhere) else in the world.

 That's why I'm saying its easy mode. Like in Europe everyone has a degree and nobody has a damn job. 30 year olds living with their parents. Australia and NZ? You are happy just to get that $30k. Little less so in Aussie, but in New Zealand? Man there just aren't opportunities past that entry level. The whole country is the size of metropolitan Dallas.

Australians have a higher average household income than the USA. But OK...

The US unemployment rate is artificially low for two big reasons:

1. The sheer amount of people who dropped out of the workforce entirely and aren't recorded.

2. The US has become a service industry. Driving for Uber/Lyft, delivering food, working as a server and etc at a restaurant.... it's not exactly an economy with a lot of room for upward mobility - hence the middle class stagnation over 4 decades. 

It's amazing that you have it all figured out and you don't even live here. Truly amazing. 

[The Sir]

20 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I have no issues with tax dollars; they are a necessary evil. I just want them to be appropriated properly. 

I just find it ironic that you judge people of less fortune when you, yourself, depended on others to pay for your education. Others aren't so lucky for that to be an option. You think it was hard work that got you where you are, but would you be there if you had to pay yourself? Why didn't you work hard - outside the military - to pay your own tuition? Why did you chose a route in which tax payers pay if it's all about how hard one works?

I grew up in River Forest - struggling is not something I have personally endured... far from it, but I have met and worked with people of all walks of life who did not have the privileges I was given growing up - a great school system, parents that could support me to the point where that never was a concern for me, and supportive parents who pushed and motivated me because they could afford Montessori schools, great child care and etc. What you fail to understand is that those are huge benefits, and judging those who don't receive them is naive. When you are worried about whether or not your mom will eat tonight or have enough food for you... worried about whether you can walk to the closest place with wifi because it's night time and dangerous... maybe then you'll understand that obstacles can deter a childs path to success much easier than adults - who themselves are already easily taken off task. Children that have to worry about every thing in their lives - unable to simply focus on school and friends etc - are going to have a harder time achieving the goals that someone without those speed bumps has. It's just a fact of life. 

The whole... work hard and succeed thing is obviously nonsensical. It's why parental income is correlated so heavily to childrens success. 

My point is that I did work hard. I didn’t scrub dishes to pay it back dollar by dollar, but I went to a shitty place and saw things I hope you never see, and the government thought that was enough that they footed the bill. So I did earn that, and I earned it by work, direct or not.

The military can be hard. Getting in, however, isn’t. I maintain that most people, even those in paragraph three, do have that opportunity.

Which brings me to paragraph three. I agree with a lot of what you bring up. I have a harsher view because I’ve seen some people succeed in that environment and it leaves me wondering why others cannot. I went over that already. But still, I understand that there are people less fortunate than I. Why does that simple assertion have to come with an attack on my work ethic?

You say that’s not what it is, but everything else you say suggests that it is. Sorry, but I’m not going to degrade what I’ve achieved in life just because I lived in a big house when I was a kid and my parents had nice cars.

[raBBit]

15 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The government would be attacked equally so if they denied student loans based on majors and told only certain kids with certain career aspirations that they could get the opportunity. Even though I agree that it's reckless lending, it's also not their place to discriminate loans for education based on majors - however damning and telling the earning potential is for certain ones. 

So we should all suffer so all the baristas can have a degree while they have anchors of student debt they'll never get out of? This is the exact kind of reckless and supposedly virtuous lending that led to the housing crisis. Making people entitled to things that they will never be able to afford is not helping them.

[KiwiSox]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Australians have a higher average household income than the USA. But OK...

The US unemployment rate is artificially low for two big reasons:

1. The sheer amount of people who dropped out of the workforce entirely and aren't recorded.

2. The US has become a service industry. Driving for Uber/Lyft, delivering food, working as a server and etc at a restaurant.... it's not exactly an economy with a lot of room for upward mobility - hence the middle class stagnation over 4 decades. 

It's amazing that you have it all figured out and you don't even live here. Truly amazing. 

The only reason someone gets stuck working for Uber in any capacity more than a side hustle is if they have zero initiative in life. Nothing wrong with having zero initiative, but you cant come b****ing about how unfair everything is if you wont put in any effort.

You ever worked in Australia? I have. Its not great. The internet is still 90's-era and the absolute vast majority of the country is totally undeveloped. Getting around is a nightmare.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, raBBit said:

So we should all suffer so all the baristas can have a degree while they have anchors of student debt they'll never get out of? This is the exact kind of reckless and supposedly virtuous lending that led to the housing crisis. Making people entitled to things that they will never be able to afford is not helping them.

Education is something that everyone deserves though and the more educated people are, the better the world in general. It's an investment in advancements and futures - not everyone with a comm degree go on to work as a Barista - just as not all pre-med kids become doctors. You can't withhold opportunity from those kids, even though I agree with you.

Also, the subprime mortgage lending was much more dangerous because you can default on those loans; as I said. Student loans can't really cripple unless unemployment surged to levels that would cripple the economy anyway. 

The big problem with student loans is the money it takes out of the economy from young people who can't buy homes, cars, condos and other big purchases with that burden. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, KiwiSox said:

The only reason someone gets stuck working for Uber in any capacity more than a side hustle is if they have zero initiative in life. Nothing wrong with having zero initiative, but you cant come b****ing about how unfair everything is if you wont put in any effort.

You ever worked in Australia? I have. Its not great. The internet is still 90's-era and the absolute vast majority of the country is totally undeveloped. Getting around is a nightmare.

There's a large portion of this country that can't even get cable internet. I have already shown the statistics stating that Australians make more money. 

Undeveloped? This would be like saying the US is undeveloped because large portions of the west are undeveloped. My goodness. Have a good day.

[Soxbadger]

38 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Whoopdie doo. I am sure the 29-year-old Poly Sci grad making 35k a year can take solace in the education level of the country while they wallow in debt with no foreseeable end as the government benefits off of the decision they made following their prom dance. 

 

13 minutes ago, raBBit said:

So we should all suffer so all the baristas can have a degree while they have anchors of student debt they'll never get out of? This is the exact kind of reckless and supposedly virtuous lending that led to the housing crisis. Making people entitled to things that they will never be able to afford is not helping them.

How do you propose to pick what degrees are worthwhile? You point out a poli sci degree. Back when this board was formed, I was in college getting a double major Poli Sci/History. 

I then took those degrees and went to Law School. I make a lot more than $35k. All the people in my office with their worthless poli sci degrees make more than $35k.

So why are poli sci degrees any more or less worthless than any other degree? Isnt it how the individual applies the degree, as opposed to the degree itself? How can the govt pick who is worthy, who will make good decisions, etc.

How do you pick who can ever afford it?

32 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Even just the idea that rich kids can afford college while everyone else can either take huge loans out or go risk their lives for the chance to go to college later is a telling way to caste society. 

Well of course. The best way to subvert competition is to create barriers. Thats why we have to give equal access to loans, even if it means that some people make bad decisions. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Soxbadger

[KiwiSox]

8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

There's a large portion of this country that can't even get cable internet. I have already shown the statistics stating that Australians make more money. 

Undeveloped? This would be like saying the US is undeveloped because large portions of the west are undeveloped. My goodness. Have a good day.

Of course Australians make more money, Australians have much better work ethic than Americans and have way, way more drive. Take your average poor, bogan Aussie and put him in America and he'd do great. Americans are just a bunch of entitled, whiny and lazy babies. Look, I'm not arguing that America is in any way a nice place to live. Its a crime ridden shithole filled with the world's absolutely worst people. Going back even temporarily feels like going to some alternate "worst-case" dimension.

But the economic conditions in America for someone who gives a shit are laughably easy. So easy it is unfathomable to everyone else in the world. Within 10 years you can realistically go from living in a box to upper middle class and its not even that difficult. I dont see how people fail in America unless they  get themselves addicted to drugs or have criminal records.

Edited February 12, 2019 by KiwiSox

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, KiwiSox said:

Of course Australians make more money, Australians have much better work ethic than Americans and have way, way more drive. Take your average poor, bogan Aussie and put him in America and he'd do great. Americans are just a bunch of entitled, whiny and lazy babies. Look, I'm not arguing that America is in any way a nice place to live. Its a crime ridden shithole filled with the world's absolutely worst people. Going back even temporarily feels like going to some alternate "worst-case" dimension.

But the economic conditions in America for someone who gives a shit are laughably easy. So easy it is unfathomable to everyone else in the world. Within 10 years you can realistically go from living in a box to upper middle class and its not even that difficult. I dont see how people fail in America unless they  get themselves addicted to drugs or have criminal records.

Another erroneous "Fact" form Kiwi. American's work longer hours and more days than Australia and most developed nations. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[raBBit]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Education is something that everyone deserves though and the more educated people are, the better the world in general. It's an investment in advancements and futures - not everyone with a comm degree go on to work as a Barista - just as not all pre-med kids become doctors. You can't withhold opportunity from those kids, even though I agree with you.

Also, the subprime mortgage lending was much more dangerous because you can default on those loans; as I said. Student loans can't really cripple unless unemployment surged to levels that would cripple the economy anyway. 

The big problem with student loans is the money it takes out of the economy from young people who can't buy homes, cars, condos and other big purchases with that burden. 

I am aware that people with the same majors have different careers/lives. 

If you think people don't get their lives ruined by student loans I don't know what to tell you. While they may not leave you with nothing like getting foreclosed on would with mortgage loan, that doesn't mean they're not crippling. It's like you're arguing the cocaine is okay because heroin is worse. 

It is the same thinking to the housing crisis is what I said. I didn't say the pitfalls are the same.

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

How do you propose to pick what degrees are worthwhile? You point out a poli sci degree. Back when this board was formed, I was in college getting a double major Poli Sci/History. 

I then took those degrees and went to Law School. I make a lot more than $35k. All the people in my office with their worthless poli sci degrees make more than $35k.

So why are poli sci degrees any more or less worthless than any other degree? Isnt it how the individual applies the degree, as opposed to the degree itself? How can the govt pick who is worthy, who will make good decisions, etc.

How do you pick who can ever afford it?

Well of course. The best way to subvert competition is to create barriers. Thats why we have to give equal access to loans, even if it means that some people make decisions. 

I was using an example and you know that. I wasn't speaking about your career specifically. The current system does not work. If you look at the lowest earning majors Poly Sci is up there. If you would feel comfortable giving an 18 year old loans to get a degree that he/she needs another degree to be successful so be it. I would prefer giving loans to a kid trying to get an engineering degree. But I am trying to look at this in whole as opposed to my specific situation. 

[KiwiSox]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Another erroneous "Fact" form Kiwi. American's work longer hours and more days than Australia and most developed nations. 

This statistic says nothing to the quality of those hours. Dumping sixty hours a week into a dead-end job because you are afraid to try for something better or lack the drive to make something more of yourself doesn't make you a hard worker, it makes you an idiot.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Kiwi, you seem to have a lot of pent up anger and absolutest views on society and the people within it... I'm sorry you're so angry, but here's to hoping you get it all out one day. 

In the meantime, you can go ahead and cast judgement on anyone and everyone you please with ignorant views and I'll just go ahead and ignore them going forward. 

Any other erroneous facts you want to spew, someone else can call you on them. Now Australians just work better; which is something that would be impossible for you to measure but whatever.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is complete nonsense. 

You clearly have no idea about the differences between education at good and bad elementary/middle and high schools.

A lot of kids do not have a computer or internet. They dont have updated text books. Their classrooms are difficult to focus in as many kids arent their to learn. There is genuine fear about being the smart/book nerd kid at some CPS schools. Everyone does not have the same opportunity as you. Some people who come for a lot or even middle class up bringing have a really difficult time understanding how lucky they were. Frequently they accredit their success to their hard work - completely ignoring the immense opportunity they had and were given.

I taught in two public high schools in Kansas City, average ACT score of those who even dreamed of going to college (roughly 1 out of 3) was 13.5 or so.

My current Chinese international school that's over $20k per year in tuition (not including SAT, IELTS, TOEFL training and prestigious Ivy League summer camps in the US) has an SAT average of over 1500 in the IB and SO programs, with about half at perfect 800s for math.  11 going to Oxford or Cambridge, 2 to Univ of Chicago, 1 to Duke, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, over 15 to UCLA or USC, 11 to NYU, etc.

Those Chinese parents invest all that tuition money into their childrens' futures.  Our students never have a real job until 21/22 or 23/24 in many cases, when they finish MA/MS/MBA programs.

Edited February 12, 2019 by caulfield12

[KiwiSox]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Kiwi, you seem to have a lot of pent up anger and absolutest views on society and the people within it... I'm sorry you're so angry, but here's to hoping you get it all out one day. 

In the meantime, you can go ahead and cast judgement on anyone and everyone you please with ignorant views and I'll just go ahead and ignore them going forward. 

Any other erroneous facts you want to spew, someone else can call you on them. Now Australians just work better; which is something that would be impossible for you to measure but whatever.

Well this is just a disappointing cop out of an argument that you clearly aren't interested in losing. Why do you have to make it personal with me? I never said one bad thing about you, yet here you are trying to psychoanalyze me for no purpose. Really rude, and I think you may be projecting your own anger issues and insecurities onto me with it.

[pettie4sox]

You two please stop derailing the thread.  Take it to PMs.

[KiwiSox]

Yea I'm done with somebody who cant have a decent civil conversation without making it some giant battle over each other's personal character. He can go play by himself. Not interested in PM's.

[he gone.]

Yikes. I know the weather sucks and people are angry cause Machado wont sign his quarter Billion contract.. but yikes.

a- government taxes suck. they are a necessity. however you can't run a country this big without pissing off someone. taxes $$ is spent rather inefficiently and needs more accountability. Also true is that throwing money at a problem rarely works, however a certain amount of money needs to be thrown at the problem so that children can eat and have a roof over their head.

b- student loans suck. it turned college into a business. government should not be profiting off these loans.

c- schools don't give equal opportunities. life isn't fair. not everybody is given a fair shake. that being said if one finds enough will power they can make a good life out of it. we should be inspiring our kids. with knowledge. with passion. with a damn idea of what kind of jobs pay. how to manage day to day life. how to manage day to day finances.

d- quit trying to win arguments. find common ground. everybody is trying to win their conversations. it's a discussion forum to learn from others and enrich your day!

e- machado sign please!