Tax Refunds

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, KiwiSox said:

Well this is just a disappointing cop out of an argument that you clearly aren't interested in losing. Why do you have to make it personal with me? I never said one bad thing about you, yet here you are trying to psychoanalyze me for no purpose. Really rude, and I think you may be projecting your own anger issues and insecurities onto me with it.

Personal? You've attacked the people of the USA and called people failures and losers lol.

I said nothing of the sort. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, KiwiSox said:

Are you talking about quality of life or economic growth? Because in the past forty years you have gained access to things like ultra low-cost air travel and a pocket supercomputer. Go back only twenty years and tell somebody you can pull a little machine out of your pocket and use it to book a flight from Chicago to Los Angeles for $75. They'd slap the shit out of you!

On wages specifically, the fact that people are content working absolutely dead-end jobs is their own problem. There are many ways to develop skills that can be accomplished totally independently and put someone on a career path for decent money.

I don't think people are content working dead-end jobs. I'm certainly not. People aren't going to uproot themselves and jeopardize their income stability for a zero to marginal increase in quality of life. There are many factors in switching jobs or changing careers. 

Speaking of education: 

I have a BS in Chemical engineering and couldn't make a career in the field work because of my Asperger's. There is a huge demand for people on the autism spectrum in the Software Development industry, and they  have programs that would give me the support I need to be successful. I have looked into programs, and I don't have the skills to do it. I pay roughly 50% of my monthly income for my student loans, and the only reason why I'm doing it is because of the horror stories I've heard about procrastinating with them when you can't find a job. I live at home, mostly because of these two factors. I would love to go back to school and get the skills to become a software engineer, but.....I can't justify the investment because there are zero guarantees even with these programs. 

They say that people "have access" to education but when you're in a situation like mine, where you're making less than minimum wage, already have student loans, and your field is dying due to its reliance on fossil fuels(I didn't get into Chem E to work for Shell, Exxon or BP-I got in to help with the green revolution, and that failed as well) And you have a clear path to a successful career but in reality the education I need is way too expensive. Not to mention that my federal loans carry a 6.8% interest rate and new loans go for over 8%, I really can't afford it. These programs didn't exist when I was in college in the late 2000s and even the earliest ones started after I graduated. If I would have known about them, I would have gone for this line of work. The first time I got hint of something like this, I was already out of college for a year and a half. They started popping up in 2014. In reality, I don't have access to the education that I need to be successful. It wasn't because of any choices that I made or didn't make, it was all about graduating into the teeth of the great recession and the lack of information available to both individuals and employers about where people on the spectrum are best able to acclimate to a NT workplace. It was shitty timing and bad luck. Also, I wasn't mature enough emotionally to handle full time work when I was in my mid-20s either. If I had a time machine I'd go back and do a lot of things differently. (mainly-go work until I was  emotionally mature enough to handle a"real job" and had all of the information I needed to be able to prepare for a successful career) But I don't and I'm left to pick up the pieces from here. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

Are we going to blame parents/students (for lacking in initiative and drive), the government or capitalism as practiced today in America?

I majored in English, minored in poli sci and history...two masters degrees, zero student loans.  One, I chose instate tuition Iowa over NU and Notre Dame because I didn't want to waste my parents' money. Two, I got a graduate assistantship position based on GRE scores.  Another degree was 50% paid for through government subsidies, very similar program to Teach For America.  Used two education stipends from AmeriCorps national voluntary service for the other half. Less money for 9 years than my Chinese students spend for one or two months in American universities today.

[The Sir]

44 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Undeveloped? This would be like saying the US is undeveloped because large portions of the west are undeveloped. My goodness. Have a good day.

Would you stop being so literal and maybe, just maybe, think about context?

He wasn't saying Australia is undeveloped because it's poor and you risk getting abducted by warlords. It's a first world country and I'm sure a guy who's worked there would agree.

He's saying it's undeveloped because transit across it is a nightmare. I live in a state that's well known for being huge and sometimes empty, and you'll at least find a town every fifty miles or so. But drive south out of Birdsville, Queensland? Hope you got a full tank of gas, because the twelve square blocks that is Marree, South Australia, is 310 miles away.

That absolutely qualifies as undeveloped.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'll try to get this back on the tracks...

On 2/11/2019 at 3:17 PM, bmags said:

It's nice to see this. I've been nervous I haven't started one yet but we've had a lot of reworking of savings and incomes with the house and kids and didn't quite feel we were in a place to start it yet.

For us, we had expensive Day Care / Preschool bills, until they started Kindergarten at public school. So what worked really nicely was, as soon as that fell off for each kid, we immediately put a chunk of that each month into a 529 instead. Still got to save some bucks, because the 529 amount was much less than the school was. And we never missed it that way.

 

6 hours ago, raBBit said:

Lots of student loan talk here. I am curious to what kind of rates you guys renegotiated to if you did renegotiate.

I had some grad loans at 6%-7%  and I refi-ed them down to 4.3%. That 4.3% is essentially what I am looking at for my WACC. 

My credit score is over 750 and the only knocks are that I haven't paid enough of my debt off and I have a lot of credit pulls (student loan refi's, cc's, bought a car, refi of car loan, etc.). 

When I did renegotiated my student loans initially, my credit score was lower and I was looking at about 60k left where I am now closer to 35k.  I guess the question being, and I know it's specific to individuals, have any of you found it worthwhile to refinance your loans in a situation like mine? I am just not sure there are any refi options available under 4%. Also not sure sure if saving say .7% is worst the hassle and credit pull. 

I am not sure why, but the interest rates on my wife's student loans (finished PhD in 2004) were only like 2%. And after we paid on time for like 2 years straight, it went down to 1.75%. On in inflationary basis that was like free money. Never re-financed, it just came that way. Was through Great Lakes Credit Union, then the debt was bought by Nelnet.

 

[bmags]

Just now, NorthSideSox72 said:

I'll try to get this back on the tracks...

For us, we had expensive Day Care / Preschool bills, until they started Kindergarten at public school. So what worked really nicely was, as soon as that fell off for each kid, we immediately put a chunk of that each month into a 529 instead. Still got to save some bucks, because the 529 amount was much less than the school was. And we never missed it that way.

 

I am not sure why, but the interest rates on my wife's student loans (finished PhD in 2004) were only like 2%. And after we paid on time for like 2 years straight, it went down to 1.75%. On in inflationary basis that was like free money. Never re-financed, it just came that way. Was through Great Lakes Credit Union, then the debt was bought by Nelnet.

 

This is a great idea.

[Jack Parkman]

45 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Are we going to blame parents/students (for lacking in initiative and drive), the government or capitalism as practiced today in America?

I majored in English, minored in poli sci and history...two masters degrees, zero student loans.  One, I chose instate tuition Iowa over NU and Notre Dame because I didn't want to waste my parents' money. Two, I got a graduate assistantship position based on GRE scores.  Another degree was 50% paid for through government subsidies, very similar program to Teach For America.  Used two education stipends from AmeriCorps national voluntary service for the other half. Less money for 9 years than my Chinese students spend for one or two months in American universities today.

None are completely blameless, but I'd put more of the onus on the government and modern day capitalism than anything. I went to a JuCo for my first two years, was able to get a 50% academic scholarship. I still had to finance 35K in student loans, and my parents covered 50% of my costs remaining after the scholarship. I only paid for room and board for 1/3 years at university, and the only reason I did that was because I had an 8am class that I would have had to commute to 35th and State for class when I live in Elgin. I did it once before and it was brutal. It greatly affected my grade in that particular class, because I was fatigued from lack of sleep. 

You want to know what was crazy? It was actually less expensive for me to attend IIT after the scholarship than either UIC or U of IL. I also later found out that it would have actually been more prudent to go to university immediately because I could have received a full ride due to my ACT score(I got a 31-on the 1st try) I thought I was making smart decisions but in reality I was making dumb ones. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, illinilaw08 said:

It's a relatively safe vehicle for the feds since the bankruptcy code makes it virtually impossible for people to get rid of their student loan debt...

Student loan debt is crippling for a lot of people.  My wife and I are comfortable, but between the two of us, we're paying approximately $1500/m on account of student loan debt (some of that is overpayment, but still).  I legitimately don't know how people can have both student loan debt and children.

The accrediting body for physical therapy education (CAPTE) now has a criteria on student debt. The students come to us after their undergrad and then go 3 more years to complete DPT school. There are trying to keep the debt reasonable (whatever that means). Programs can lose accreditation if their average student debt upon graduation is above a certain level.

[The Sir]

48 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

How do you propose to pick what degrees are worthwhile?

So why are poli sci degrees any more or less worthless than any other degree? Isnt it how the individual applies the degree, as opposed to the degree itself? How can the govt pick who is worthy, who will make good decisions, etc.

How do you pick who can ever afford it?

This is the problem with using tax dollars for something. We're paying for it, so shouldn't we get a say in whether it was worthwhile or not? Do you want to pay for me to learn Xhosa? Do you feel like you'd get a good ROI for that?

I don't want more bureaucracy. So I'd suggest the simplest way is to not pay for it at all. For certain people who make those good decisions, and fill jobs that are hard to fill, they can be reimbursed. Major in gender studies and end up teaching at the worst school in CPS? Okey doke.

Major in gender studies and end up as a barista? Sorry. Doesn't qualify.

[Soxbadger]

24 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I was using an example and you know that. I wasn't speaking about your career specifically. The current system does not work. If you look at the lowest earning majors Poly Sci is up there. If you would feel comfortable giving an 18 year old loans to get a degree that he/she needs another degree to be successful so be it. I would prefer giving loans to a kid trying to get an engineering degree. But I am trying to look at this in whole as opposed to my specific situation. 

I just think that people should have the freedom to pick what degree that they want, and that they should have to live with the outcome of that. Its not our job as a society to babysit them. That being said, I also dont think most 18 year olds know their major or have a real college plan. Many people switch majors in college. I think that a lot of people default to things like poli sci, because they may not be able to make it in a harder major. 

Its not really straightforward. You could argue that if your not at a certain level in HS, maybe you shouldnt even be wasting your money on college. But that presupposes that no one can change, that no one can get better. Or on the other hand, no one can get worse.

I dont really have a lot of experience with those decisions, so I am not about to tell other people what to do. I lived in a world where college was an expectation not a choice. 

[Soxbadger]

6 minutes ago, The Sir said:

This is the problem with using tax dollars for something. We're paying for it, so shouldn't we get a say in whether it was worthwhile or not? Do you want to pay for me to learn Xhosa? Do you feel like you'd get a good ROI for that?

I don't want more bureaucracy. So I'd suggest the simplest way is to not pay for it at all. For certain people who make those good decisions, and fill jobs that are hard to fill, they can be reimbursed. Major in gender studies and end up teaching at the worst school in CPS? Okey doke.

Major in gender studies and end up as a barista? Sorry. Doesn't qualify.

Now Im confused. I thought the bad thing about student loans is that the govt is making money (interest) off the backs of the poor students. So is it (a) student loans are bad because the govt is greedy and making money or is it (b) student loans are bad because the govt is losing money and therefore tax payers are on the hook to pay for them. Because if the govt is making money, then isnt it a good ROI on my tax dollars?

In general though tax dollars go to plenty of things that i dont think are worthwhile. I bet there are a good trillion dollars of things Id cut before I start denying people the right to pick their own education. 

 

[ptatc]

31 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't think people are content working dead-end jobs. I'm certainly not. People aren't going to uproot themselves and jeopardize their income stability for a zero to marginal increase in quality of life. There are many factors in switching jobs or changing careers. 

Speaking of education: 

I have a BS in Chemical engineering and couldn't make a career in the field work because of my Asperger's. There is a huge demand for people on the autism spectrum in the Software Development industry, and they  have programs that would give me the support I need to be successful. I have looked into programs, and I don't have the skills to do it. I pay roughly 50% of my monthly income for my student loans, and the only reason why I'm doing it is because of the horror stories I've heard about procrastinating with them when you can't find a job. I live at home, mostly because of these two factors. I would love to go back to school and get the skills to become a software engineer, but.....I can't justify the investment because there are zero guarantees even with these programs. 

They say that people "have access" to education but when you're in a situation like mine, where you're making less than minimum wage, already have student loans, and your field is dying due to its reliance on fossil fuels(I didn't get into Chem E to work for Shell, Exxon or BP-I got in to help with the green revolution, and that failed as well) And you have a clear path to a successful career but in reality the education I need is way too expensive. Not to mention that my federal loans carry a 6.8% interest rate and new loans go for over 8%, I really can't afford it. These programs didn't exist when I was in college in the late 2000s and even the earliest ones started after I graduated. If I would have known about them, I would have gone for this line of work. The first time I got hint of something like this, I was already out of college for a year and a half. They started popping up in 2014. In reality, I don't have access to the education that I need to be successful. It wasn't because of any choices that I made or didn't make, it was all about graduating into the teeth of the great recession and the lack of information available to both individuals and employers about where people on the spectrum are best able to acclimate to a NT workplace. It was shitty timing and bad luck. Also, I wasn't mature enough emotionally to handle full time work when I was in my mid-20s either. If I had a time machine I'd go back and do a lot of things differently. (mainly-go work until I was  emotionally mature enough to handle a"real job" and had all of the information I needed to be able to prepare for a successful career) But I don't and I'm left to pick up the pieces from here. 

No offense but this is part of the issue. Most people don't get to pick their perfect job right away. You take what you can get, work your way up, get experience ,then you get your dream job. Some people luck into their dream job right away but most have to work jobs they don't like until they get the one they do. You do what you have to to make the living you want.

[The Sir]

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

Now Im confused. I thought the bad thing about student loans is that the govt is making money (interest) off the backs of the poor students. So is it (a) student loans are bad because the govt is greedy and making money or is it (b) student loans are bad because the govt is losing money and therefore tax payers are on the hook to pay for them. Because if the govt is making money, then isnt it a good ROI on my tax dollars?

In general though tax dollars go to plenty of things that i dont think are worthwhile. I bet there are a good trillion dollars of things Id cut before I start denying people the right to pick their own education. 

 

Think you got me confused with someone else. Unless you're talking about my mini-rant about paying $1,900 in interest on a loan that I paid $2,200 or so total this year. The point of that wasn't that the government was wrong to charge me interest; I simply made it a goal to get rid of it sooner than I previously planned. No biggie.

On part two, I'm sure we disagree. I mean, a lot of tax dollars do go to things that aren't worthwhile, but I'd put the personal educations of other people towards the top.

[illinilaw08]

16 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The accrediting body for physical therapy education (CAPTE) now has a criteria on student debt. The students come to us after their undergrad and then go 3 more years to complete DPT school. There are trying to keep the debt reasonable (whatever that means). Programs can lose accreditation if their average student debt upon graduation is above a certain level.

That's interesting.  Does that calculation account for undergrad debt?  If so, does it lead to a greater allocation of scholarship dollars to those with undergrad debt?

For me, access to higher education is critical to an upwardly mobile society.  There are obviously some pretty big issues with the current system which is evidenced by the massive amount of student loan debt in circulation.  So I am interested in seeing different ideas on how people are addressing those issues.

[raBBit]

31 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

I am not sure why, but the interest rates on my wife's student loans (finished PhD in 2004) were only like 2%. And after we paid on time for like 2 years straight, it went down to 1.75%. On in inflationary basis that was like free money. Never re-financed, it just came that way. Was through Great Lakes Credit Union, then the debt was bought by Nelnet.

 

Wow. Yeah, that's what you would think the government would charge their youth for education loans.

 

[The Sir]

2 hours ago, illinilaw08 said:

It's a relatively safe vehicle for the feds since the bankruptcy code makes it virtually impossible for people to get rid of their student loan debt...

Student loan debt is crippling for a lot of people.  My wife and I are comfortable, but between the two of us, we're paying approximately $1500/m on account of student loan debt (some of that is overpayment, but still).  I legitimately don't know how people can have both student loan debt and children.

Genuinely curious, did you know and understand how much you were going to owe (and maybe even pay each month) when you took that loan out?

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No offense but this is part of the issue. Most people don't get to pick their perfect job right away. You take what you can get, work your way up, get experience ,then you get your dream job. Some people luck into their dream job right away but most have to work jobs they don't like until they get the one they do. You do what you have to to make the living you want.

No kidding, I had the attitude of working in petrochemicals in their safety dept, and as I got the experience I could go do what I wanted. I was prepared to work there for the first 5 years of my career. I knew what I was getting into. The only way that I could have stomached working for them was in safety/EPA compliance. The issue was that I gave off the vibe that I really didn't care for Petrol companies. I was involved in plenty of industry meetings, talked to professionals, etc. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ptatc]

Just now, illinilaw08 said:

That's interesting.  Does that calculation account for undergrad debt?  If so, does it lead to a greater allocation of scholarship dollars to those with undergrad debt?

For me, access to higher education is critical to an upwardly mobile society.  There are obviously some pretty big issues with the current system which is evidenced by the massive amount of student loan debt in circulation.  So I am interested in seeing different ideas on how people are addressing those issues.

It accounts for total overall student debt, both undergrad and doctoral. The idea is to keep the cost of the DPT program in check so that universities don't abuse the "cash cow." The demand for the program is high, we typically get 400 applicants for our 36 places. So universities keep raising the cost because the student will borrow and pay. The issue is that it's catching up to our field. You are guaranteed a job but the pay isn't worth some of the debt they incur. This is a new idea and we'll see how it works.

This isn't much of an issue for us, it's about 75,000 for the 3 years but the students at northwestern will pay 125,000 for the same thing.

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Genuinely curious, did you know and understand how much you were going to owe (and maybe even pay each month) when you took that loan out?

For me, Yeah...I can't speak for him. I went to a loan calculator and figured it out. You can't account for thinking that $400/month is no big deal when you believe you'll be making $3500/month after taxes but you're only taking home $800. I mean those who did get jobs in petrochemicals were making 70K right out of school. Most of my classmates ended up going to grad school because the job market was so tight in 2011-12. I had no shot. I didn't know what I was doing. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Soxbadger]

3 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Think you got me confused with someone else. Unless you're talking about my mini-rant about paying $1,900 in interest on a loan that I paid $2,200 or so total this year. The point of that wasn't that the government was wrong to charge me interest; I simply made it a goal to get rid of it sooner than I previously planned. No biggie.

On part two, I'm sure we disagree. I mean, a lot of tax dollars do go to things that aren't worthwhile, but I'd put the personal educations of other people towards the top.

I was speaking generally about what are the "ills" of student loans. If youre going to say something is a bad return on investment, then we are talking money. 

And then we disagree. I think that making sure everyone has access to higher education is extremely important, and one of the most valuable things for our country to invest in. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

I was speaking generally about what are the "ills" of student loans. If youre going to say something is a bad return on investment, then we are talking money. 

And then we disagree. I think that making sure everyone has access to higher education is extremely important, and one of the most valuable things for our country to invest in. 

I think this is a key for society as well, too bad the State of illinois doesn't think so.

[illinilaw08]

2 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Genuinely curious, did you know and understand how much you were going to owe (and maybe even pay each month) when you took that loan out?

Just to be clear - that's both my law school debt and my wife's law school debt.  Also to be clear, both of us had decent scholarships and worked while in law school - law school is 'spensive.   

I generally understood what my monthly payment was going to be.  But because I went straight from undergrad to law school, I had no sense of the impact a student loan repayment would have on my budget in the real world.  

If I had it to do over again, I would probably have put off law school for a couple years.  Making those kind of financial decisions when you are 21-22 years old sets some kids up to fail (it's even worse when they are making those decisions at 18).

[The Sir]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

For me, Yeah...I can't speak for him. I went to a loan calculator and figured it out. You can't account for thinking that $400/month is no big deal when you believe you'll be making $3500/month after taxes but you're only taking home $800. 

Sorry, Jack. Seems like you counted your chickens before they hatched. You could take up a side hustle. I Uber, and I'm even getting a real estate license. Just a thought.

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

And then we disagree. I think that making sure everyone has access to higher education is extremely important, and one of the most valuable things for our country to invest in. 

That's fair. I just don't know how I benefit from your polisci/history degree. You don't really benefit from my criminal justice degree either.

[ptatc]

Just now, illinilaw08 said:

Just to be clear - that's both my law school debt and my wife's law school debt.  Also to be clear, both of us had decent scholarships and worked while in law school - law school is 'spensive.   

I generally understood what my monthly payment was going to be.  But because I went straight from undergrad to law school, I had no sense of the impact a student loan repayment would have on my budget in the real world.  

If I had it to do over again, I would probably have put off law school for a couple years.  Making those kind of financial decisions when you are 21-22 years old sets some kids up to fail (it's even worse when they are making those decisions at 18).

I think a basic high school financial class of balancing a budget and loans should be a requirement. Understanding loans would help a lot, most people will have one type of loan or another, car, house school etc.

[The Sir]

2 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

Just to be clear - that's both my law school debt and my wife's law school debt.  Also to be clear, both of us had decent scholarships and worked while in law school - law school is 'spensive.   

I generally understood what my monthly payment was going to be.  But because I went straight from undergrad to law school, I had no sense of the impact a student loan repayment would have on my budget in the real world.  

If I had it to do over again, I would probably have put off law school for a couple years.  Making those kind of financial decisions when you are 21-22 years old sets some kids up to fail (it's even worse when they are making those decisions at 18).

I gotcha.

At the risk of beating a dead horse and having Ray Ray freak out on me again, have you considered the military?

You could probably come in at a non-entry level rank, do JAG stuff, and get some serious repayment. Try it with the IL National Guard and you could reap benefits for only two days a month (ok- not sure about that, NG might not pay out until you've given them some serious time, like a deployment).