Updated with $/WAR: Every Hahn MLB Free Agent Signing since 2012/2013

[TheTruth05]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I wonder what a similar evaluation would look like with the Cubs since Theo took over? Lester certainly helps, much like Abreu did here, but Heyward, Chatwood, Darvish would all bring down the production rates significantly.

Moral of the story? Hahn hasn’t been good with free agent signings overall but his bad signings are greatly magnified because he is consistently working with low payrolls.

Lester is the best FA signing in franchise history. That alone gives Theo a pass for doing everything in his power to try and build around a young core that they were bringing up at the time. Supplement the young,cheap talent. 

Really don't know how anyone can keep defending Hahn. The three headed monster in our FO is the #1 reason this rebuild is off the rails currently.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

Lester is the best FA signing in franchise history. That alone gives Theo a pass for doing everything in his power to try and build around a young core that they were bringing up at the time. Supplement the young,cheap talent. 

Really don't know how anyone can keep defending Hahn. The three headed monster in our FO is the #1 reason this rebuild is off the rails currently.

Abreu is the best free agent signing in White Sox history and Kenny was the GM for the franchise’s first title in 88 years. Does that mean they also get a pass?

Look, I’m not saying they’ve done a great job but they are also working with a deck stacked against them (payroll constraints) and even the best of the best (Theo right?) make some truly awful FA signings. The difference is terrible signings like Chatwood and Darvish can be swept under the rug and absorbed in a top 8 MLB payroll whereas that doesn’t happen when you are running a payroll in the bottom third of the league.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Abreu is the best free agent signing in White Sox history and Kenny was the GM for the franchise’s first title in 88 years. Does that mean they also get a pass?

Look, I’m not saying they’ve done a great job but they are also working with a deck stacked against them (payroll constraints) and even the best of the best (Theo right?) make some truly awful FA signings. The difference is terrible signings like Chatwood and Darvish can be swept under the rug and absorbed in a top 8 MLB payroll whereas that doesn’t happen when you are running a payroll in the bottom third of the league.

The White Sox had the 8th highest opening day payroll in MLB as recently as 2013. They had the 5th highest opening day payroll as recently as 2011. 

[TheTruth05]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Abreu is the best free agent signing in White Sox history and Kenny was the GM for the franchise’s first title in 88 years. Does that mean they also get a pass?

Look, I’m not saying they’ve done a great job but they are also working with a deck stacked against them (payroll constraints) and even the best of the best (Theo right?) make some truly awful FA signings. The difference is terrible signings like Chatwood and Darvish can be swept under the rug and absorbed in a top 8 MLB payroll whereas that doesn’t happen when you are running a payroll in the bottom third of the league.

Lester anchored down the staff for a Cubs WS title, is that on par with what Abreu has done? He's a good FA signing and Hahn gets credit for taking advantage of a market with none of the big guns available to sign him (what a concept, amirite?) and KW fielded multiple teams that contended and had winning seasons, let me know when our "charasmatic" GM gets 1 under his belt, or should we just accept that all of the Sox prospects will struggle and the rebuild will be constantly pushed back?

 

They operate with a bottom third payroll by choice, which is what I mean when I say they're all to blame equally. JR for cheapness, KW for what seems to be complacency and RH for just being a bad talent evaluator or trusting people that are. Just go look at the Rays/Cards and now Brewers and see how they get the most of out their talent on very limited financial flexibility. This FO should be embarassed.

Edited April 11, 2019 by TheTruth05
spellingz

[Blackout Friday]

Penny wise and pound foolish. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The White Sox had the 8th highest opening day payroll in MLB as recently as 2013. They had the 5th highest opening day payroll as recently as 2011. 

you really like to mislead without telling the whole story don’t you? Since Hahn assumed the GM role prior to the 2013 season, the team’s opening day payroll has ranked #20 on average. That’s largely inflated by his first year at the helm as you mentioned #8 back in 2013. 

[bmags]

Abreu is the best free agent signing in white sox history? I'm not sure I buy that.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

Lester anchored down the staff for a Cubs WS title, is that on par with what Abreu has done? He's a good FA signing and Hahn gets credit for taking advantage of a market with none of the big guns available to sign him (what a concept, amirite?) and KW fielded multiple teams that contended and had winning seasons, let me know when our "charasmatic" GM gets 1 under his belt, or should be just accept that all of the Sox prospects will struggle and the rebuild will be constantly pushed back?

 

They operate with a bottom third payroll by choice, which is what I mean when I say they're all to blame equally. JR for cheapness, KW for what seems to be complacency and RH for just being a bad talent evaluator or trusting people that are. Just go look at the Rays/Cards and now Brewers and see how they get the most of out their talent on very limited financial flexibility. This FO should be embarassed.

The Rays are the exception, not the rule. The entire league should be embarrassed by what that organization is able to accomplish with far less resources. The Cardinals are always in the top half of the league by payroll. This current version of the Brewers haven’t won anything yet other than a division title. Yes, they appear to be on the rise after last year’s performance but they also had a head start on the Sox in their rebuild. If the Sox are still losing 85+ games in 2021, then that will be highly concerning. Until then, I continue to look for slivers or hope and focus on the positive developments.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

you really like to mislead without telling the whole story don’t you? Since Hahn assumed the GM role prior to the 2013 season, the team’s opening day payroll has ranked #20 on average. That’s largely inflated by his first year at the helm as you mentioned #8 back in 2013. 

Those numbers show that they absolutely can spend money. The problem is not that they can't spend around a bad contract, it's that they have done such a terrible job of finding and developing young talent that they can't win games when they have guys with bad contracts, because the LaRoche is starting at 1b and Micah Johnson is their starting 2b, for example. Because they can't develop anything internally, and the ones they were on the verge of developing they traded away, they were left in a position where they had no real way to work around the bad contracts they did sign. The Cubs can afford a Heyward out in the OF for a couple years because they had Bryant and Baez having good years in the infield. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Those numbers show that they absolutely can spend money. The problem is not that they can't spend around a bad contract, it's that they have done such a terrible job of finding and developing young talent that they can't win games when they have guys with bad contracts, because the LaRoche is starting at 1b and Micah Johnson is their starting 2b, for example. Because they can't develop anything internally, and the ones they were on the verge of developing they traded away, they were left in a position where they had no real way to work around the bad contracts they did sign. The Cubs can afford a Heyward out in the OF for a couple years because they had Bryant and Baez having good years in the infield. 

If you truly believe that then why wouldn’t JR authorize Kenny Hahn to sign one of Machado or Harper? They knew the number it would take but weren’t authorized to guarantee a contract at that level. It was obvious Kenny Hahn were covering for JR after the Machado signing because it’s clear JR wouldn’t allow them to guarantee $300M+. So they spun the BS of their offer being better etc etc. It’s all a cover for JR’s unwillingness to spend.

[Kalapse]

24 minutes ago, bmags said:

Abreu is the best free agent signing in white sox history? I'm not sure I buy that.

Esteban Loaiza produced 7.2 bWAR in 2003 for 500k. Only 0.9 bWAR in '04 for $4M but that turned into Jose Contreras so pretty damn good overall.

[bmags]

22 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Rays are the exception, not the rule. The entire league should be embarrassed by what that organization is able to accomplish with far less resources. The Cardinals are always in the top half of the league by payroll. This current version of the Brewers haven’t won anything yet other than a division title. Yes, they appear to be on the rise after last year’s performance but they also had a head start on the Sox in their rebuild. If the Sox are still losing 85+ games in 2021, then that will be highly concerning. Until then, I continue to look for slivers or hope and focus on the positive developments.

The positive developments you mention is basically that if you never compare the sox to any successful organization then they don't look so bad.

[bmags]

Just now, Kalapse said:

Esteban Loaiza produced 7.2 bWAR in 2003 for 500k. Only 0.9 bWAR in '04 for $4M but that turned into Jose Contreras so pretty damn good overall.

Yes him. I was thinking Dye, but I think there is probably a strong case for Jose over Dye. Even best seasons were comparable, and longevity certainly in Jose's favor.

 

[Kalapse]

Just now, bmags said:

Yes him. I was thinking Dye, but I think there is probably a strong case for Jose over Dye. Even best seasons were comparable, and longevity certainly in Jose's favor.

 

Yep, went to Dye first but his WAR numbers are dragged down by defense and specifically the '07 season. An amazing free agent signing but a different era and he really couldn't move in RF.

[bmags]

A couple interesting items from talking to other people:

- Seems consensus is its not fair to remove Abreu. His age plus the fact that every other team could sign him at time makes him more of a free agent than traditional INTL. That and this certainly was not a case of just a marco paddy referral.

- Some debate over whether negative WAR should be used to subtract from other WAR and not just be zeroed out. I still lean toward it subtracting from the amount, but at least will consider zeroing out the minor league contracts.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

29 minutes ago, bmags said:

The positive developments you mention is basically that if you never compare the sox to any successful organization then they don't look so bad.

I wouldn’t consider the Rays or Brewers “successful” organizations. Certainly not in the same light as the Cardinals or even close to it. The Rays have been very competitive over the years but how many rings have they won? How many rings do the Brewers have? Success is ultimately measured by winning championships, not division titles or wild card appearances.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I wouldn’t consider the Rays or Brewers “successful” organizations. Certainly not in the same light as the Cardinals or even close to it. The Rays have been very competitive over the years but how many rings have they won? How many rings do the Brewers have? Success is ultimately measured by winning championships, not division titles or wild card appearances.

I consider the David Stearns brewers to be very successful. He was hired prior to the 2016 season with a weak, bloated roster. In his first year they won 73 games, his second they won 86, and last year won 96 games. They look very likely to win 85+ games.

The rays dipped after friedman left but build themselves back up and look to be on the verge of a run in a MUCH more competitive and difficult division. When the White sox had to compete directly against the yankees historically, it didn't go so well.

Championships require a lot of luck in injury and getting hot at the right time. And are awesome. But building consistent winners is the mark of a successful front office, by way of building a team talented and deep enough to overcome bad luck and still be a winning roster.

 

[pcq]

It is quite possible Sox brass did not request 300 for MM because they could not guarantee value in return.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I consider the David Stearns brewers to be very successful. He was hired prior to the 2016 season with a weak, bloated roster. In his first year they won 73 games, his second they won 86, and last year won 96 games. They look very likely to win 85+ games.

The rays dipped after friedman left but build themselves back up and look to be on the verge of a run in a MUCH more competitive and difficult division. When the White sox had to compete directly against the yankees historically, it didn't go so well.

Championships require a lot of luck in injury and getting hot at the right time. And are awesome. But building consistent winners is the mark of a successful front office, by way of building a team talented and deep enough to overcome bad luck and still be a winning roster.

 

As a Packers fan, anything short of a Super Bowl ring is an unsuccessful season in my eyes. This same standard applies to the White Sox. I didn’t consider 2008 a success because they made the playoffs and lost in the first round. During my fandom, 2005 has been the only truly successful season for the White Sox by this definition. The Brewers and Rays have yet to win a title bad luck or not.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

As a Packers fan, anything short of a Super Bowl ring is an unsuccessful season in my eyes. This same standard applies to the White Sox. I didn’t consider 2008 a success because they made the playoffs and lost in the first round. During my fandom, 2005 has been the only truly successful season for the White Sox by this definition. The Brewers and Rays have yet to win a title bad luck or not.

You are framing this as holding the sox to high standards but you are actually holding them to low standards. You are saying an entire decade of no playoffs is equal to making the playoffs if there is no championship.

[reiks12]

I know it would be a daunting task, but you would have to do something similar with other GMs in baseball so we have something to compare him to. I am not a Hahn fan by any means, but this could be average around the league.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, bmags said:

You are framing this as holding the sox to high standards but you are actually holding them to low standards. You are saying an entire decade of no playoffs is equal to making the playoffs if there is no championship.

I regard the Packers as a successful organization because they have won 13 league championships, not because they have X number of playoff appearances. The White Sox are in no way a successful organization. 3 champisonships in 125 years is terrible. My only point was that I simply cannot call two franchises that have yet to win a championship “successful.” It seems you can and I suppose we have differing definitions of successful. 

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

I know it would be a daunting task, but you would have to do something similar with other GMs in baseball so we have something to compare him to. I am not a Hahn fan by any means, but this could be average around the league.

Definitely. Quite honestly the hardest task is sorting through the transaction logs and being able to identify ML deals vs. org churn. It requires some familiarity, frankly, with the players. Would a tigers fan know to pull in Brian Ommogrosso? That's the killer part. I wonder if MLB trade rumors has yearly free agent logs by team.

edit: actually i suppose this could be done from a total offseason perspective by pulling the mlb trade rumors free agent trackers but may not offer insight on the smaller deals.

[Moan4Yoan]

On 2/19/2019 at 6:28 PM, GreenSox said:

He had a 6.49 ERA, a 1.5 WHIP and averaged 4.4 strikeouts the year before....and Hahn paid him $1.5 million.....

Hahn thought he was pulling off one of the best signings of all time because he was going to get a quality starter for $1.5 million dollars based on Turner’s draft/prospect status and “Coop’ll Fixem!”  But like most of his awful dumpster diving signings, it was a failure.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[thxfrthmmrs]

18 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Abreu is the best free agent signing in White Sox history and Kenny was the GM for the franchise’s first title in 88 years. Does that mean they also get a pass?

Look, I’m not saying they’ve done a great job but they are also working with a deck stacked against them (payroll constraints) and even the best of the best (Theo right?) make some truly awful FA signings. The difference is terrible signings like Chatwood and Darvish can be swept under the rug and absorbed in a top 8 MLB payroll whereas that doesn’t happen when you are running a payroll in the bottom third of the league.

I know you’re staying on the positive side but your posts are extremely apologetic for this front office has done and ignoring an important fact.

Fact is Sox plays in Chicago, not Tampa, not Milwaukee. Guess the Sox payroll in 2006 and 2007? Ranked 9th and 4th in entire league. The whole “payroll constraint” you’re referring to is a direct result by years of incompetence. Sox has not played competitive baseball for 6+ years now, and we’re left wondering why the payroll is shrinking. Let’s call a spade when we see one.