Grading Rick Hahn

[heirdog]

I really want to give him an “A.”   He’s a very likeable guy and I feel like the linear reporting structure of a stubborn, octogenarian owner and the nuisance Kenny Williams, who should purely be a video analysis scout, does him no favors.

But in the end, he, as professional should know that results matter and if anyone told him differently, they lied to him.   His results are atrocious.  Win-loss record if abysmal.  Draft mantra went from Kenny’s versatile, projectable football players to single tool players that have flaws in said tools. Trade acquisitions have been flawed prospects, save Eloy (hopefully).  The era started w a bang when he traded for Avi...and that disaster was a microcosm of his snakebit tenure.

Honestly, there is a real possibility that this farm system might be the 2000 farm system of Rauchs, Gary Glovers and Carusos.  Maybe a Rowand or Crede comes out of it.  But in the end, you convinced a shitty owner to rebuild, you invest $25 million (guaranteed) in dead weight friends and family and you can’t close a $50 million gap ($25 mill really without the dead weight) because you can’t get said shitty owner to drop his ego and realize that if he “loses” the deal he, and the team actually wins.

F. Rick’s grade is an F...there are no splitting hairs here.  F = fail and that is exactly what he has done.  Failed!

[Dan of Steel]

Wow. Some of you people need to get. a. grip. 

Machado is an excellent player, but 10 years and 300 million is a ridiculous amount of money and years locked in. 

There will be other FA's and the Sox have an insane amount of young talent. 

Breathe.

[Moan4Yoan]

53 minutes ago, Dan of Steel said:

Wow. Some of you people need to get. a. grip. 

Machado is an excellent player, but 10 years and 300 million is a ridiculous amount of money and years locked in. 

There will be other FA's and the Sox have an insane amount of young talent. 

Breathe.

What do you think the going rate is for top free agents?  And if you think 10 years and $300 million is a ridiculous price, then you are basically assuming the Sox will never sign a top free agent and should continue to waste money on mid-level free agent talent and their favorite strategy — dumpster diving.

Also, please name some projected free agents that will be available in the future that the Sox will have a reasonable shot at landing who are better options than two 26 year old guys who are on Hall of Fame tracks with very little competition for their services.  It seems that the Padres were the only other true competition for Mahado’s services and it appears that the Phillies are currently the only real competition for Harper’s services.

Arenado will be 29 years old at the beginning of next season and if the Rockies don’t extend him, the Yankees are already rumored to be all over him if he hits free agency.  So good luck with that.

Trout?  Yeah, pipe dream.  Every team with money available will be all over the best player in the league.

Posters continue to throw out this narrative that other good free agents will be available in the future but no one can ever name a realistic option for the Sox who is better than Machado or Harper considering the circumstances of this offseason with very little team interest and the Sox being one season away from the expected start of their team being competitive.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Dan of Steel]

Machado was also given a ridiculous amount of money, more than he was worth. Harper will likely get more. 

Missing out sucks, but this team is still quite stacked with young and budding talent and FA's like Arenado is one of many. They don't have to be as good as those two, but they also won't be getting that kind of money.

Again, breathe. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Dan of Steel

[Moan4Yoan]

6 minutes ago, Dan of Steel said:

Machado was also given a ridiculous amount of money, more than he was worth. Harper will likely get more. 

Missing out sucks, but this team is still quite stacked with young and budding talent and FA's like Arenado is one of many. They don't have to be as good as those two, but they also won't be getting that kind of money.

Again, breathe. 

Sox won’t land Arenado for reasons I already mentioned.  Besides, he’s a worse option because he will be older (29 in the beginning of next season) and there are questions of the Coors effect.  So try again please.  What other players make up the “many” (to quote you) that will be available that are better options than Machado and Harper?  You just named one guy who isn’t a better or more realistic option.  And I’m breathing just fine.  This is just an honest question.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Dan of Steel]

Just now, Harper2Sox said:

Sox won’t land Arenado for reasons I already mentioned.  Besides, he’s a worse option because he will be older (29 in the beginning of next season) and there are questions of the Coors effect.  So try again please.  What other players make up the many that will be available that are better options than Machado and Harper?  You named one guy who isn’t better.

You are strawmanning your way out of a legitimate conversation. I never said the Sox would land a guy with Machado or Harper's talents, but FA's would be available to help this team. This was always about building through the farm system. 

 

 

[Moan4Yoan]

1 minute ago, Dan of Steel said:

You are strawmanning your way out of a legitimate conversation. I never said the Sox would land a guy with Machado or Harper's talents, but FA's would be available to help this team. This was always about building through the farm system. 

 

 

The entire point of this offseason was landing a top talent.  Hahn has been talking about it for a year.  Remember the Machado trade rumors last offseason?  This was Hahn’s plan.  Now, since the Sox whiffed on Machado and potentially Harper, you are changing the narrative to acquiring free agents with lesser talents.  This was not Hahn’s plan.

[Chicago White Sox]

I gave Hahn an F because missing out in this free agent class and the reasons why we did are incredibly troubling for the well-being of this franchise.  Our organization will never be able to land a true star and while I still like most of our prospects / young guys it’s incredibly foolish to think we won’t need to supplement with impact talent from free agency.  Our margin for error now is so small now and we basically have to hit on most of our top prospects.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Dan of Steel said:

Machado was also given a ridiculous amount of money, more than he was worth. Harper will likely get more. 

Missing out sucks, but this team is still quite stacked with young and budding talent and FA's like Arenado is one of many. They don't have to be as good as those two, but they also won't be getting that kind of money.

Again, breathe. 

Based on the amount the White Sox have been paying for performance of free agents since about 2010, there is a good chance that Machado at $400 million over 10 years would produce more wins per dollar than any free agent contract we signed other than Swarzak and Abreu, and Abreu's market was weird due to it being an international FA. Machado just has to stay mostly healthy and be on a normal aging curve for a 26 year old who has played to his level, and Machado at 10/$400 million would be a better contract than almost any the White Sox have signed. If he's paid more than he's worth, then there should never be any free agent signings at all.

I would rather have Machado at $40 million this season than Abreu at $16 million, and that's 33% more than Machado is actually getting. 

[WBWSF]

Hahns contract runs out after the 2019 season. I figure after another dismal season he will be gone. The only way he should be brought back by the White Sox  is as a peanut vendor.

[Dick Allen]

Have him be an assistant to someone who knows what they are doing. He can work on contract extensions with the young guys. He excelled doing that. But he wouldn't have a job with any other team doing what he is doing with the results he has had. 

Maybe JR meddles. i wouldn't doubt it. He really needs to look at it, say almost 40 years is a great ride, take the precious money a sale would bring to the Sox and the Bulls, and ride off into the sunset. Get someone new with some hunger who sees potential in waking a sleeping giant.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Hahns contract runs out after the 2019 season. I figure after another dismal season he will be gone. The only way he should be brought back by the White Sox  is as a peanut vendor.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry but you missed this in late 2017.

Quote

Reinsdorf, widely regarded as the most loyal executive in baseball, recently signed Williams and Hahn to long-term contract extensions. He has had only four managers in the last 20 years. The last manager they fired was Jerry Manuel in 2003, with Ozzie Guillen departing for a bigger paycheck with the Marlins, and Robin Ventura resigning after last season.

 

[WBWSF]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry but you missed this in late 2017.

 

He might be the most loyal executive in MLB BUT only if you get along with him and kiss his rear end. He didn't get along with a lot of people and they were gone as soon as possible. Some of the people he didn't get along with were Harry Caray, Jimmy Piersall, Larry Himes, Carlton Fisk. Dick Allen and writer Bill Gleason.  JR not only didn't get along with these guys but JR bad mouthed all of them publicly at one time or another. The one that baffled me was his lack of friendship with writer Bill Gleason. Gleason was the only sportswriter in Chicago who was a lifelong White Sox fan. Gleason had no use for either JR or Einhorn.  So yeah JR is loyal to some people but not everybody.

[Dick Allen]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry but you missed this in late 2017.

 

It's like GarPax. Everyone can see the problem except the people who could do something about it.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

He might be the most loyal executive in MLB BUT only if you get along with him and kiss his rear end. He didn't get along with a lot of people and they were gone as soon as possible. Some of the people he didn't get along with were Harry Caray, Jimmy Piersall, Larry Himes, Carlton Fisk. Dick Allen and writer Bill Gleason.  JR not only didn't get along with these guys but JR bad mouthed all of them publicly at one time or another. The one that baffled me was his lack of friendship with writer Bill Gleason. Gleason was the only sportswriter in Chicago who was a lifelong White Sox fan. Gleason had no use for either JR or Einhorn.  So yeah JR is loyal to some people but not everybody.

You saw the part about the "long term contract extensions" right? That was the part of that paragraph I was trying to show you. We don't know when it ends, but Hahn is only gone after 2019 if he's fired, he's under contract "long-term". 

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

He might be the most loyal executive in MLB BUT only if you get along with him and kiss his rear end. He didn't get along with a lot of people and they were gone as soon as possible. Some of the people he didn't get along with were Harry Caray, Jimmy Piersall, Larry Himes, Carlton Fisk. Dick Allen and writer Bill Gleason.  JR not only didn't get along with these guys but JR bad mouthed all of them publicly at one time or another. The one that baffled me was his lack of friendship with writer Bill Gleason. Gleason was the only sportswriter in Chicago who was a lifelong White Sox fan. Gleason had no use for either JR or Einhorn.  So yeah JR is loyal to some people but not everybody.

Black Jack McDowell...

Maybe Chris Sale, unless we blame that 100% on KW, but it’s still indirectly Reinsdorf’s responsibility for keeping KW around.  

He had his moments with Frank Thomas as well.

 

[FT35]

He's been very good when dealing with the team's assets.  (Biggest hiccup was moving Tatis for Shields, but what many don't remember is that the team was off to a VERY strong start and felt it was unsustainable without another SP.  He made a deal--which at the time looked like a buy-low on Shields who was some Coup time away from being a strong contributor, it just didn't work out).  But he's made some nice trades and more importantly, negotiated several team-friendly contracts that have added additional value to those players' trade return.   

His shortcomings revolve around the budget restrictions he's been given to work with.  In other words, Jerry.  It's Jerry who I imagine is a GREAT person to work for but with his history on spending and activist stance on many Free Agent-related issues, it's a tough roadblock for Hahn.  For Hahn and Kenny Williams' sake, they both did their job of convincing Jerry to blow away his limit for Machado--which I believe was right at that $250M guaranteed.  Both he and Kenny stated that in their comments about "Jerry stepping up."

Bottom line is...Rick Hahn has had to navigate a franchise with one of the lowest attendance records in MLB, and a tight-wad owner.  In many cases, he (and Kenny) have been forced to "get creative" on ways to build the on-field MLB product and it often shows.  In that regard, you have to consider his ability to even convince Jerry to scrap/rebuild as a major win as well--breaking the broken pattern of plug and play moves.  

NOW...I think the Machado situation is a MAJOR blow to the organization--not as much from a standpoint of us not winning the bid, but for what type of thinking has taken place afterwards.  I see red flags looking into some of the comments Hahn has made since the Machado signing..."the money will be spent,"  "there are still players we want to sign."  All those comments point to the OLD, BROKEN way of fielding a team.  You MISS on your 2-year plan FA target, and automatically default to the plug and play cycle of "who's left available" on the scrap heap pile and let's just get them. 

All this while we have already filled 2 roster positions with plug and play type vets Alonso and Jay.  I guess I'd like to hear more along the lines of "we had an opportunity to speed up the rebuild, it didn't happen, so we are going to switch gears and stick with our original timeline and continue to plan accordingly."  I'd like to see AT LEAST Alonso on the move soon, (did you all see the comment by Alex Cora when he referenced the Sox signing Alonso and Jay as something that "wasn't going to work to get Machado, but at least Jay was a good player?!?"  Yikes!)  I think it's important to move him for 2 reasons: 1. he doesn't really belong on this team and we could use his roster spot, and 2. he reminds the world of our failure.  I'd also like to see them back to flip mode on Colome and Herrera.  

I guess how he gets through the recent failure will help to define Hahn for me.  Can he leverage it?  Can he use it to motivate?  Can he overachieve because of it?  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Hahn made great trades (at the time), apart from the NY trade.  But this Machado fiasco bombed his grade.  They talked and BRAGGED about this for years and don't even offer the low end of what was expected... barf

[Thad Bosley]

7 hours ago, Dan of Steel said:

Wow. Some of you people need to get. a. grip. 

Machado is an excellent player, but 10 years and 300 million is a ridiculous amount of money and years locked in. 

There will be other FA's and the Sox have an insane amount of young talent. 

Breathe.

Yes, there will be other FA's, but the only ones we'll be in play for are of the dumpster dive variety.  Premium free agents expect and command and will eventually get at least a market value for their services, and maybe more.  The White Sox made a very loud statement this week that they simply won't pay that market value, let alone any overpay above that.  Because if you are not going to pay it for either of the two 26 year old generational talents who were in play this offseason, you won't pay it for anyone.  

So expect  the current ownership and management to revert back to their usual tactics of not competing for premium talent on the open market, as has been the case for most of their years running the White Sox.  Unless, of course, a mean streak hits them again, and they choose to take the fan base through another offseason charade like the ones they took us through these past three months.  

[mqr]

D-. Only credit is not completely fumbling the tear down stage. 

[mqr]

4 hours ago, WBWSF said:

Hahns contract runs out after the 2019 season. I figure after another dismal season he will be gone. The only way he should be brought back by the White Sox  is as a peanut vendor.

You actually think Jerry Reinsdorf is going to move on from an FO employee? That's rich.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

17 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

I went with a B. He's done a great job of collecting the top prospects and depth. Grade may be different in a couple of years depending on how guys develop and who else he brings in.

Yup, I gave him a B as well. He's done a great job building a system. But he can't get an A until he ACTUALLY supplements this roster with FA talent, or trades.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Yup, I gave him a B as well. He's done a great job building a system. But he can't get an A until he ACTUALLY supplements this roster with FA talent, or trades.

Right. It's tough to grade 2 (about to start a 3) years in. The grade may decrease this time next year or it may stay the same, however.

[aryzner]

I can't vote until this offseason is over and Harper has signed. Missing out on Machado hurts the grade a lot but Harper is still out there and even though I am 99% certain they won't sign him, there's still a chance as long as he's a Free Agent.

[SCCWS]

1 minute ago, aryzner said:

I can't vote until this offseason is over and Harper has signed. Missing out on Machado hurts the grade a lot but Harper is still out there and even though I am 99% certain they won't sign him, there's still a chance as long as he's a Free Agent.

Machado probably hasn't signed yet. So there is always the same 1% chance he changes his mind.