Perspective

[Waylo Kneehigh]

Gonna play some Fox and the Grapes here. 

 

We can't get Manny?  So what?  He has some pretty strong character flaws as well as two questionable knees that will only be getting worse as he ages.  His age made it seem a perfect match for the rebuild from a timing standpoint,  but we are at least 2 years out from contending leaving 2 years of FA to go through before our window is supposedly open.  Does it hurt not being able to seal the deal?  Sure, but it may in fact be a blessing in disguise for no other reason then the Sox may have saved a boat load of money on somebody that may or may not last physically.  It hurts losing his offense but if the knees flair up again than it's a moot point.  I'm harping on the knees here if you hadn't noticed. 

 

Harper?  We already had Adam Dunn, a big left handed power bat that is decidedly unclutch, strikes out a LOT, but walks a lot as well so it doesn't seem as bad.  Machado was the better option of the two imo from an offensive standpoint so it doesn't make sense to me that Harper gets the bigger contract. 

 

It could very well be that these two are mirages and that the massive amount of time and money that is and will be spent on them is better served by another team that will get burned.

 

Hey, we can't have em so lets justify why it's better that we don't! 

 

I jumped on board the hype train as the offseason went on but at the end of last season I was against the Sox signing either of them so I'm coming back around.  Even with them the next two seasons would be losing seasons so there is little immediate impact either of these guys would make aside from ticket sales and league perception, but why pay hundreds of millions of dollars for perception when it's possible some of the pieces of the rebuild will do that, they haven't even had the chance yet aside from Moncada. 

 

There are more signs of doom and gloom then there are of a prosperous future at the moment for this organization, and a lot of that seems to be stemming from the front office, I won't deny that.  Is it insurmountable?  Probably not but it's way harder to overcome due to the decade of garbage and questionable decision making (I love Ventura but he didn't even want to coach, he had to be convinced!  What a joke!).

At the end of the day this was always going to be another development season.  It would be great if either Harper or Machado were here, even if it was just to make us feel good. 

 

Some notable Machado stats:

WAR by year:                                      Season avg: .282  OBP: .335  SLG: .487 OPS: .822

'12: 1.5

'13: 6.5

'14: 2.4

'15: 7.1

'16: 6.7

'17: 3.5

'18: 5.7 combined BAL & LAD

 

According to Matt Kelly in his article published on MLB.com two days ago the best case scenario for the team that gets Machado and who he comps with is:

Manny Ramirez

Barry Larkin

Billy Williams

Worst case scenario and the one I am focusing on with this post:

Zoilo Versailes

Sixto Lezcano

Eric Chavez

 

Chavez being the best known to myself (I'm 35) he too was at his peak in his age 26 season.   The same thing that befell Chavez could very likely rear it's head for Machado and what I pointed out earlier, injuries.  From his age 29 season through his retirement at 36, Chavez played more than 100 games only once.  If a similar path is followed by Machado, that's a lot of time being missed for the richest FA contract in history.

So has the Sox's ineptitude saved them from the greater, long term damage?  Perhaps, but only time will tell.

As for Harper:

Lastly, and my own personal guff with Harper, the way he acted at the homerun derby last season just reeked of immaturity.  It was fun to watch but I was sittin there like, dude, it's the HR derby... no the playoffs, dial it back.  What I saw was, "See!?, look how great I am!!"  meh.

[Superstar Lamar]

Stop it.

I'd take every one of those worst case scenarios.  Versailles was an MVP

[Iwritecode]

The thought has crossed my mind whether or not the Sox are really one superstar player away from playoff contention. 

Aren't the Angels proof that having one really great player doesn't make a great team?

[Waylo Kneehigh]

1 minute ago, Iwritecode said:

The thought has crossed my mind whether or not the Sox are really one superstar player away from playoff contention. 

Aren't the Angels proof that having one really great player doesn't make a great team?

They didn't even have one in '05, at least a colloquial superstar.  They did it with great pitching (something the organization can hang it's hat on) and solid defense.  Right now they need better defense but I think the pitching is right around the corner.  Bullpens are fickle so all it takes is one season of solid bullpen to coincide with solid pitching which we may be getting soon, as well as some developed offense and I at least think we are in the conversation, though I'll stop before saying we'll have a seat at the table...........

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

The thought has crossed my mind whether or not the Sox are really one superstar player away from playoff contention. 

Aren't the Angels proof that having one really great player doesn't make a great team?

They're not and that's not the whole point of signing one of these guys. With the current roster, no they are not. But prospects will come up and the current guys should make some positive strides and then you suddenly have great, cheap options around the rest of the team to go along with a Machado or Harper.

Edited February 21, 2019 by soxfan2014

[Greg Hibbard]

The thing that greatly angers me is really not about not getting Machado. 

The things that makes me extraordinarily angry:

1) that we went out and got Yonder Alonso and John Jay as window dressing, and then offered an amount of money that was a completely bad faith, shit offer based on where everyone knew the money should be, including Machado, his agent, my cat, and any intern working in baseball. 

2) that early along people scoffed at the White Sox being serious suitors, given their track record with FA, and then people grudgingly included them in reports when it became clear they were the only real offer for weeks. Then, after San Diego just went out and got it fucking done in a normal way, our organization looks like the punk ass b**** bridesmaids who got stood up at the altar, and we can now not too quietly return to being league laughingstock cheapskates.

3) that just once our stupid fucking front office can’t just have gone out and done something extraordinarily above and beyond to get a premier player in an era that demands it given where their organization is

4) that just for once our stupid fucking front office can’t fucking own their total lack of vision on this.

If they had simply not pursued Machado, we would have been fine. Instead, we look like complete fools, have nothing to show for it, and the optics are terrible for luring future FA.

There is no silver lining in how this was handled. How it was handled was categorically terrible. 

 

 

 

[Waylo Kneehigh]

1 minute ago, Greg Hibbard said:

The thing that greatly angers me is really not about not getting Machado. 

The things that makes me extraordinarily angry:

1) that we went out and got Yonder Alonso and John Jay as window dressing, and then offered an amount of money that was a completely bad faith, shit offer based on where everyone knew the money should be, including Machado, his agent, my cat, and any intern working in baseball. 

2) that early along people scoffed at the White Sox being serious suitors, given their track record with FA, and then people grudgingly included them in reports when it became clear they were the only real offer for weeks. Then, after San Diego just went out and got it fucking done in a normal way, our organization looks like the punk ass b**** bridesmaids who got stood up at the altar, and we can now not too quietly return to being league laughingstock cheapskates.

3) that just once our stupid fucking front office can’t just have gone out and done something extraordinarily above and beyond to get a premier player in an era that demands it given where their organization is

4) that just for once our stupid fucking front office can’t fucking own their total lack of vision on this.

If they had simply not pursued Machado, we would have been fine. Instead, we look like complete fools, have nothing to show for it, and the optics are terrible for luring future FA.

There is no silver lining in how this was handled. How it was handled was categorically terrible. 

 

 

 

Indeed, I agree with all of that wholeheartedly.  This process reiterated some of the long standing issues with the organization and a Machado or Harper would only glaze over those issues.  They love to pat themselves on the back but hardly ever own up to their shortcomings.  Plus there is the obligatory radio interview about how the fans aren't supporting the team as much as the team needs them to, seemingly suggesting it's the fans fault for the cheapness of the organization.  They haven't endeared themselves to anyone and this offseason was the breaking point for a lot of folks, understandably so. 

[southsideirish71]

These participation award trophy threads are predictable.  Let me tell you how this horrible thing is a blessing in disguise.  Nope, not buying it.  A 26-year-old generational talent who plays in a premier position at a very high level and mashes the ball.     

1.) Who cares if the baseball player is a dick or has a personality you don't like.  His job is to be a very good baseball player not to be your buddy.

2.) Anecdotes about your feelings or your perception about what is happening are not germane to reality.   Sure he could get hurt tomorrow.  Aliens could take over tomorrow and outlaw baseball. Yellowstone could start to pop and dump volcanic ash on half the united states.   Why does this stuff always seem to be projected with FA that we miss out on.  Our #1 pitcher prospect could wreck his UCL and require Tommy John just after activating his service timer.   I mean this all goes both ways.  We need our prospects to hit and hit in waves and a few of them to be absolute studs.  Outside of that, we need to sprinkle around real major league talent at a high level.  Because in the end some of these prospects are not going to be superstars for whatever reason.  Some of which you would use the farm as trading chits and the others will require a FA or 3.   

2.) Adam Dunn is left handed.  That's about as much as he has in common with Harper.  

 

 

[Waylo Kneehigh]

4 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

These participation award trophy threads are predictable.  Let me tell you how this horrible thing is a blessing in disguise.  Nope, not buying it.  A 26-year-old generational talent who plays in a premier position at a very high level and mashes the ball.     

1.) Who cares if the baseball player is a dick or has a personality you don't like.  His job is to be a very good baseball player not to be your buddy.

2.) Anecdotes about your feelings or your perception about what is happening are not germane to reality.   Sure he could get hurt tomorrow.  Aliens could take over tomorrow and outlaw baseball. Yellowstone could start to pop and dump volcanic ash on half the united states.   Why does this stuff always seem to be projected with FA that we miss out on.  Our #1 pitcher prospect could wreck his UCL and require Tommy John just after activating his service timer.   I mean this all goes both ways.  We need our prospects to hit and hit in waves and a few of them to be absolute studs.  Outside of that, we need to sprinkle around real major league talent at a high level.  Because in the end some of these prospects are not going to be superstars for whatever reason.  Some of which you would use the farm as trading chits and the others will require a FA or 3.   

2.) Adam Dunn is left handed.  That's about as much as he has in common with Harper.  

 

 

You are unfamiliar with Aesop's fable, and you didn't bother to read through the post.  Had you done either of those you'd realize this isn't a participation award thread, silver lining thread, etc... and the Adam Dunn comment was in reference to Harper, a left handed power bat that strikes out a lot.

 

As the thread title indicated, this post was a matter of perspective and that perspective is that since we can't have him why should we really want him?  Mostly tongue in cheek with a bit of devils advocate.  Perhaps a bit too heady for the boards at this time.

[almagest]

2 minutes ago, Worldbreaker Palk said:

Perhaps a bit too heady for the boards at this time.

It's not "too heady". People understand the post. It's just wrong.  First, other more illustrative numbers aside, Harper has struck out ~21% of the time in his career. Dunn ~29%. That's a huge difference. Next, the impact of a top-tier free agent in the prime of their career isn't JUST their performance.  It's also allowing the White Sox to have some positional certainty and place less pressure on multiple prospects hitting at the same time. It also allows them to trade prospects now blocked by Harper or Machado for other pieces they need. Yeah, they could get hurt and cost 30+ million for nothing, but any Sox player could get hurt and be just as (if not more) damaging. You can't base a franchise-impacting personnel decision on "Well Machado could get hit by a bus tomorrow so let's not sign him". That's stupid.

[Waylo Kneehigh]

2 minutes ago, almagest said:

It's not "too heady". People understand the post. It's just wrong.  First, other more illustrative numbers aside, Harper has struck out ~21% of the time in his career. Dunn ~29%. That's a huge difference. Next, the impact of a top-tier free agent in the prime of their career isn't JUST their performance.  It's also allowing the White Sox to have some positional certainty and place less pressure on multiple prospects hitting at the same time. It also allows them to trade prospects now blocked by Harper or Machado for other pieces they need. Yeah, they could get hurt and cost 30+ million for nothing, but any Sox player could get hurt and be just as (if not more) damaging. You can't base a franchise-impacting personnel decision on "Well Machado could get hit by a bus tomorrow so let's not sign him". That's stupid.

If you understood it than you'd know there is no right or wrong in the post.  It is justifying not wanting that which we wanted before because we can't have it and they are unobtainable.  I'm not at all arguing against the benefits of signing one of these guys, simply cherry picking reasoning's why maybe its not so bad we didn't get them.

 

Tongue in cheek, devils advocate so yes a bit heady for the boards at this time.  Emotions are raw I get that, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to feel or ignore the obvious benefits to having signed one of those guys. 

 

Also saying "Machado could get hit by a bus tomorrow" is in-congruent with the fact that he has a history of bad knees, and knee injuries don't just go away.

[Eminor3rd]

You guys are missing the point. 

The rebuild didn’t hinge on Manny Machado, but it DOES hinge on the team being willing to spend money on the stuff they need the most. 

There will never be an opportunity to do so that was easier and made more sense than this one. So if not now, when? On an older player? When bidding against the Yankees and Dodgers?

This isn’t about them missing the player, this is about them fucking up the process. And, specifically, in a way that just happens to be “cheap” as opposed to simply incompetent. 

This does not bode well, my friends. 

[almagest]

56 minutes ago, Worldbreaker Palk said:

If you understood it than you'd know there is no right or wrong in the post.  It is justifying not wanting that which we wanted before because we can't have it and they are unobtainable.  I'm not at all arguing against the benefits of signing one of these guys, simply cherry picking reasoning's why maybe its not so bad we didn't get them.

 

Tongue in cheek, devils advocate so yes a bit heady for the boards at this time.  Emotions are raw I get that, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to feel or ignore the obvious benefits to having signed one of those guys. 

 

Also saying "Machado could get hit by a bus tomorrow" is in-congruent with the fact that he has a history of bad knees, and knee injuries don't just go away.

Cherry picking reasons isn't going to look like anything but sour grapes at any point. We don't need to cherry pick to show why losing out on Machado is a disaster.

Machado has played in basically every game for the last four years. His knee problems were almost five years ago now. Yeah its a potential flag but there's nothing we know of that would indicate any team was worried about his knees.

[almagest]

46 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

You guys are missing the point. 

The rebuild didn’t hinge on Manny Machado, but it DOES hinge on the team being willing to spend money on the stuff they need the most. 

There will never be an opportunity to do so that was easier and made more sense than this one. So if not now, when? On an older player? When bidding against the Yankees and Dodgers?

This isn’t about them missing the player, this is about them fucking up the process. And, specifically, in a way that just happens to be “cheap” as opposed to simply incompetent. 

This does not bode well, my friends. 

I'm just not excited about any free agents after this year. Maybe Trout but that's not happening. This is a unique opportunity to help build a team with a sustained chance of success for many years, and any other free agent after this will be hole patching and not contributing to any chance of success beyond a small 2-3 year window.

[SoxFanForever]

I stopped reading when you compared Bryce to Adam F'ing Dunn.

[Jake]

I'll just say this: I feel pretty negatively about most of the big decisions made this offseason, but I'll be rooting like hell for them to turn out looking good. I hope Machado plays horribly and handicaps the Padres for the next decade. Generally speaking, I'll feel satisfaction with every failure that happens to the Padres.

I hope Yonder Alonso wins MVP. I hope Yoan Moncada wins a gold glove at 3B. You get the idea. I don't think most of these things happen, but I'd love to learn that I'm the stupid one, not the ones running the Sox.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

You guys are missing the point. 

The rebuild didn’t hinge on Manny Machado, but it DOES hinge on the team being willing to spend money on the stuff they need the most. 

There will never be an opportunity to do so that was easier and made more sense than this one. So if not now, when? On an older player? When bidding against the Yankees and Dodgers?

This isn’t about them missing the player, this is about them fucking up the process. And, specifically, in a way that just happens to be “cheap” as opposed to simply incompetent. 

This does not bode well, my friends. 

+ infinity. 

Sums up my thoughts exactly, except for the cheap/incompetent part. I'd say they were both cheap AND incompetent. 

Their player valuation is too far removed from reality to think they'll ever pull it off. Machado is a steal for 10/300, and the fact they didn't see that is well, both cheap and incompetent. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

It is too early here for perspective.  Most are still in the anger stage.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is too early here for perspective.  Most are still in the anger stage.

Thanks, SS2k5. Perspective comes later. In order to calm down I need to go think about the Hawks TDL moves until Sunday. 

[oldsox]

Give us Machado, and we contend next year for sure.

[Moan4Yoan]

You typed three paragraphs to crap on two 26 year old future Hall of Famers.  C’mon, man.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[wegner]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is too early here for perspective.  Most are still in the anger stage.

Since I have an unreasonable hope for Harper, I guess I'm in the denial phase.

[mqr]

The problem is anything short of a World Series will always be met with 'Well, What if?' from now until Moncada and Eloy are no longer on this team.

[Jack Parkman]

My perspective is this: I want to get all of my negative energy out before ST games start. I want to watch the games with a clean slate. Until then, I'm going to be overly cynical. I hope that I'm done with it by next week. 

[NWINFan]

I agree that there has been a great deal of overreaction to the Machado non-signing.  However, for the past 10 years, this front office has done little to inspire confidence.  This decade will be the first since the 1970s when the Sox didn't make it to the post season once. And in the 1970s there were no wild cards and the two ownerships had little or no financial resources. 

Will the rebuild work? It might, but I am not counting on it. And it won't work, it they pass up another opportunity like this.