Fernando Tatis Jr. trade burns more than the loss in the Machado sweeps

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

Thanks for the link. The Kansas City Royals have two players on that list. The Sox only have one. That is no bueno. 

I dont think Mondesi will make it...but he did make some progress last year.

[heirdog]

4 hours ago, VAfan said:

 

What the heck were the Sox thinking? 

I can't think of any other prospects the Sox have traded who have turned into studs. It's possible Tatis won't turn into a stud either. But right now, I sure wish he were still with the Sox. 

That he was going to be another Fernando Tatis Sr.

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, heirdog said:

That he was going to be another Fernando Tatis Sr.

He was still an All Star with either StL or Montreal and a doubles hitting machine.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Even then Adolfo's value goes way down if he can't continue to showcase that shotgun of an arm...but all indications are that 90% of players come back, and many are even better than before.  It's just a matter of his offense at Birmingham, as he's seemingly been in the low minors forever.  He probably has the most natural talent of any player in the system after Robert.

I don't think we can stress enough how important this season is for Adolfo. The Sox are burning through options with him, and he really needs to show a solid showing at Birmingham this year. The 2020 season is the last year they have an option on him, so if he isn't ready to be called up by September of next season, they may have no choice but to move on. If he can pick up right where he left off, it would be a big win for the Sox developmental staff. He's really grown on me with the way he has started to break out. It would be awesome to see him and Eloy hold down the corners for the foreseeable future. 

[caulfield12]

23 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I don't think we can stress enough how important this season is for Adolfo. The Sox are burning through options with him, and he really needs to show a solid showing at Birmingham this year. The 2020 season is the last year they have an option on him, so if he isn't ready to be called up by September of next season, they may have no choice but to move on. If he can pick up right where he left off, it would be a big win for the Sox developmental staff. He's really grown on me with the way he has started to break out. It would be awesome to see him and Eloy hold down the corners for the foreseeable future. 

They've got so much invested in proving they've made some good calls in Latin America...I hope he gets his opportunity, and it's legitimate, like Delmonico and Palka have enjoyed.

Not 100-150 at-bats, but at least 350-400.

Of course the problem here is we're talking either 2020 or 2021, and fans are going to expect those teams to compete.

That's a lot of pressure with no Machado/Harper to shoulder some of the load.  It's really going to be incumbent on guys like Anderson, Moncada and Jimenez to be the leaders, with Madrigal/Roberts/Collins all following close behind.

 

[Dominikk85]

13 hours ago, VAfan said:

I don't post here much any more. But I decided I just wanted to put this out there. 

I was disappointed the Sox didn't get Machado, even though I think the guy has some attitude flaws. But what burns me as a Sox fan was the team's horrific blunder of trading Fernando Tatis Jr in the deal for James Shields. It was all brought home when the Padres, not the Sox, ended up with Machado too. 

If you think of it this way - if the Sox still had Tatis Jr, they would have had a lot less need to go after Machado. 

Here are Tatis's numbers in AA at age 19

88

394

353

77

101

22

4

16

43

16

5

33

109

.286

.355

.507

.862

179

Here are Machado's numbers at age 19 in AA 

109

459

402

60

107

26

5

11

59

13

4

48

70

.266

.352

.438

.789

176

If you didn't know who was who, you'd have to prefer Tatis's numbers to Machado's. 

That one ill advised trade is one of the reasons the Sox's rebuilding plan may never work. The Sox are AT LEAST one major controlled talent from being contenders any time soon. And it may turn out that Tatis Jr. is better than any of the young talent the Sox actually have, with the possible exception of Eloy Jimenez.  

What the heck were the Sox thinking? 

I can't think of any other prospects the Sox have traded who have turned into studs. It's possible Tatis won't turn into a stud either. But right now, I sure wish he were still with the Sox. 

Tatis is a very Good prospect but I would take machado's 5% K-BB% over tatis 19%. Tatis raw numbers are good but mostly on power and babip domination. Moncada did the same in the minors and struggled upon call up. Because of this I prefer guys with good K-BB% numbers, just less bust potential.

It still was a bad trade but tatis wasn't seen as a top100 prospect at that time.

[Moan4Yoan]

20 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Tatis is a very Good prospect but I would take machado's 5% K-BB% over tatis 19%. Tatis raw numbers are good but mostly on power and babip domination. Moncada did the same in the minors and struggled upon call up. Because of this I prefer guys with good K-BB% numbers, just less bust potential.

It still was a bad trade but tatis wasn't seen as a top100 prospect at that time.

Well, if you are sure Tatis is going to be a star, you take him all day over Machado because of $300 million.  Problem is, either way the Sox lost both to the Padres and they will reap all of the benefits for the cost of an extra $50 million and James Shields.  ?

Edited February 22, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Timmy U]

10 hours ago, heirdog said:

That he was going to be another Fernando Tatis Sr.

 

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

He was still an All Star with either StL or Montreal and a doubles hitting machine.

He also won the NL home run crown and played Gold Glove caliber defense.  

 

1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

It still was a bad trade but tatis wasn't seen as a top100 prospect at that time.

Maybe, but Keith Law wrote before the trade that he had scouts telling him that, we’re he eligible for the draft, Tatis would go 1-1.

Everyone knew he was a significant prospect, but they valued their mirage of a hot start, James Shields past, and salary relief over future production.  The decision making in this trade encapsulates everything wrong with the Sox management’s thinking over the last ten years.  They prefer past production that Kenny saw on TV five years ago to production five years from now.  Hence, Ivan Nova and Jon Jay.

[Harry Chappas]

The thing I always said was that Machado would alleviate the Tatis argument going forward....

Machado going to SD makes it worst 

Alonso, Jay and the othesr are just the continuing kick in the nuts to the fans

Oh and 10/$300M was a fair contract and should have been matched if what they said all off-season of being all in was not bullshit. 

[Buehrle>Wood]

He made Padres opening day roster. Either stupid or extension inbound

Edited March 27, 2019 by Buehrle>Wood

[reiks12]

Nice minor league stats, can you post their major league lines now?

[Moan4Yoan]

Puke city ? ? 

It’s almost as if the question on the cover is directed at Hahn.  ?

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Dick Allen]

On 2/22/2019 at 8:02 AM, Timmy U said:

 

He also won the NL home run crown and played Gold Glove caliber defense.  

 

Maybe, but Keith Law wrote before the trade that he had scouts telling him that, we’re he eligible for the draft, Tatis would go 1-1.

Everyone knew he was a significant prospect, but they valued their mirage of a hot start, James Shields past, and salary relief over future production.  The decision making in this trade encapsulates everything wrong with the Sox management’s thinking over the last ten years.  They prefer past production that Kenny saw on TV five years ago to production five years from now.  Hence, Ivan Nova and Jon Jay.

It was after. At the time of the trade, he was a good prospect, not outstanding. His signing bonus was well under $1 million. He hadn't yet played for the White Sox or else, perhaps they don't do that trade.  Very unfortunate. 

[Moan4Yoan]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It was after. At the time of the trade, he was a good prospect, not outstanding. His signing bonus was well under $1 million. He hadn't yet played for the White Sox or else, perhaps they don't do that trade.  Very unfortunate. 

This is correct.  I also seem to remember Shields was also having a good season, albeit with weak peripherals, but didn’t he get absolutely bombed in his two starts prior to the trade leading to the owner bashing Shields’ effort?

Edited March 27, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Jerksticks]

Tatis is going to bust

[Balta1701]

43 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said:

This is correct.  I also seem to remember Shields was also having a good season, albeit with weak peripherals, but didn’t he get absolutely bombed in his two starts prior to the trade leading to the owner bashing Shields’ effort?

1 start, not 2, before the trade, but the rest is roughly correct. His ERA had jumped from 3 to 4 in one start after giving up 10 runs in 2 innings and the owner called him out personally for being unprepared and for his team struggling. After the public statement from the owner it became obvious the team was going to have to trade him. There were rumors about the Tigers also being interested as their pitching staff was breaking also.

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

1 start, not 2, before the trade, but the rest is roughly correct. His ERA had jumped from 3 to 4 in one start after giving up 10 runs in 2 innings and the owner called him out personally for being unprepared and for his team struggling. After the public statement from the owner it became obvious the team was going to have to trade him. There were rumors about the Tigers also being interested as their pitching staff was breaking also.

If only he had been traded to the Tigers for a random international prospect.

[Moan4Yoan]

13 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Tatis is going to bust

Keep hoping to ease the pain.  Shields still wasn’t worth the chance that Tatis becomes a star.  And it definitely wasn’t worth the ridiculous notion that Kenny and Hahn thought they had a shot at making the playoffs that year.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[BigHurt3515]

Padres seem to bring up prospects really quickly, not caring about service time.

Paddack and Tatis both made the roster but haven't played above AA. Last year it was Joey Lucchesi

[bmags]

31 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Padres seem to bring up prospects really quickly, not caring about service time.

Paddack and Tatis both made the roster but haven't played above AA. Last year it was Joey Lucchesi

And braves and nats last year.

Regardless of service time, I think we need to reassess our aversion to this just because of Beckham. I don't think Beckham was rushed, he just wasn't good.

Mainly with Robert, I don't see need to slow him down if he's showing he can dominate, and obviously lets just hope that.

The only other point I care to say, as long as we are revising our priors, is the first year he blew up everyone attributed it to keith law being biased or dumb. I read the athletic "behind the scenes" on tatis and the pads. Tatis did really just suddenly transform, law caught it early.

I don't like Law's approach to pitching, but I think we should give it a rest with the "law hates the sox!" stuff.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

49 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Padres seem to bring up prospects really quickly, not caring about service time.

Paddack and Tatis both made the roster but haven't played above AA. Last year it was Joey Lucchesi

Pitching is a little different. Only so many bullets in that arm and using them early and wearing them down if theyre ready is a good organizational philosophy. 

Paddack has already had one TJ too. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

14 minutes ago, bmags said:

And braves and nats last year.

Regardless of service time, I think we need to reassess our aversion to this just because of Beckham. I don't think Beckham was rushed, he just wasn't good.

Mainly with Robert, I don't see need to slow him down if he's showing he can dominate, and obviously lets just hope that.

The only other point I care to say, as long as we are revising our priors, is the first year he blew up everyone attributed it to keith law being biased or dumb. I read the athletic "behind the scenes" on tatis and the pads. Tatis did really just suddenly transform, law caught it early.

I don't like Law's approach to pitching, but I think we should give it a rest with the "law hates the sox!" stuff.

This won't be popular, but enhanced development via illegal assistance possible? His father was a steroid user. It doesn't mean he is, and it's entirely possibly that he just continued to grow and mature and figured something out... but the kid got big, very quickly. Could be natural growth or maybe not.

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, bmags said:

And braves and nats last year.

Regardless of service time, I think we need to reassess our aversion to this just because of Beckham. I don't think Beckham was rushed, he just wasn't good.

Mainly with Robert, I don't see need to slow him down if he's showing he can dominate, and obviously lets just hope that.

The only other point I care to say, as long as we are revising our priors, is the first year he blew up everyone attributed it to keith law being biased or dumb. I read the athletic "behind the scenes" on tatis and the pads. Tatis did really just suddenly transform, law caught it early.

I don't like Law's approach to pitching, but I think we should give it a rest with the "law hates the sox!" stuff.

I don't think it's just Beckham, I think the White Sox also have in the past pushed people upwards when their performance shows they would likely have benefited from extra minor league time. Moncada is a prime example of that, from the current roster I'll also count Anderson, Fulmer, Rodon, Yolmer, and that's just from the big league roster, without counting guys they traded away. I don't complain if they do it with a guy like Eloy once he proves he's simply better than a level, but every one of the guys I just listed was called up for a reason other than "They're dominating AAA".

To be fair, I would hate calling up Tatis if I were a Padres fan, even if they had a nearly complete extension. 

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't think it's just Beckham, I think the White Sox also have in the past pushed people upwards when their performance shows they would likely have benefited from extra minor league time. Moncada is a prime example of that, from the current roster I'll also count Anderson, Fulmer, Rodon, Yolmer, and that's just from the big league roster, without counting guys they traded away. I don't complain if they do it with a guy like Eloy once he proves he's simply better than a level, but every one of the guys I just listed was called up for a reason other than "They're dominating AAA".

To be fair, I would hate calling up Tatis if I were a Padres fan, even if they had a nearly complete extension. 

I think there is an argument to be made for confidence level and how that can get effected, but in general playing against the best competition seems to work. It may not lead to optimal production in their first year, but outside of optimizing production during team control, I find it unlikely that it makes achieving their potential less likely.

We aren't talking about throwing 19 year old A-ball players in the majors, where they will get shelled while they develop for 3 years. But when we are talking about preferring an additional 2-3 months of AAA time, I just don't buy it's that important outside the question of team control.

[hi8is]

Lalalala bumba