Dane Dunning: No TJS just yet, rest and monitor

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Auto correct. 

And I gave up on Dane a long time ago. Anything positive from Dunning and Burgee will just be a pleasant surprise. 

Don't forget Hansen...

[ptatc]

12 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Auto correct. 

And I gave up on Dane a long time ago. Anything positive from Dunning and Burgee will just be a pleasant surprise. 

No reason to give up on Dunning. Burg, I have no clue.

[SonofaRoache]

Just now, ptatc said:

No reason to give up on Dunning. Burg, I have no clue.

Until he proves he can stay healthy,  I will just assume we don't have his services. I'm saying I wouldn't pencil him into our future rotations until further notice. 

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No reason to give up on Dunning. Burg, I have no clue.

Who Burg is, or Burger's odds of a comeback (at 3B) after the two shredded Achilles' injuries...?

Well, there's likely to be a need at 1B unless we select Vaughn, which leaves a BUNCH of guys starting with Palka and Collins (assuming he's NOT a full-time catcher) battling it out for DH to replace Alonso and Abreu.

[ptatc]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Who Burg is, or Burger's odds of a comeback (at 3B) after the two shredded Achilles' injuries...?

Well, there's likely to be a need at 1B unless we select Vaughn, which leaves a BUNCH of guys starting with Palka and Collins (assuming he's NOT a full-time catcher) battling it out for DH to replace Alonso and Abreu.

Sorry, I meant burger, autocorrect. 

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

At least he’d be on the minor league DL and not wasting close to 20% of his service time...

Not after he won his grievence.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Not after he won his grievence.

Kopech wasn’t going to win any grievances. He had overall decent not great minor league numbers last season. Spilled milk and no reason to debate, but he wasn’t so incredibly dominant that he’d have won a grievance and been forced onto the mlb roster while sitting out a year rehabbing from TJS. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Kopech wasn’t going to win any grievances. He had overall decent not great minor league numbers last season. Spilled milk and no reason to debate, but he wasn’t so incredibly dominant that he’d have won a grievance and been forced onto the mlb roster while sitting out a year rehabbing from TJS. 

Just the very process of contesting a grievance...regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll lose in the court of opinion with other players and agents.

[ptatc]

Just by chance, another really good article on elbow torque was published recently. Although only two subject, it showed that overall velocity isn't a factor but an increase in velocity for the individual pitcher was strongly correlated with increased elbow torque.

1062-6050-558-17.pdf

[Capital G]

Stinks. For now I still believe in Dunning and Burger. Burger as a DH/1st def not at 3rd. Dunning I fear will need the surgery but I think he will come back just fine.

[southsider2k5]

7 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Kopech wasn’t going to win any grievances. He had overall decent not great minor league numbers last season. Spilled milk and no reason to debate, but he wasn’t so incredibly dominant that he’d have won a grievance and been forced onto the mlb roster while sitting out a year rehabbing from TJS. 

Parts of 3 seasons at AAA for a top 10 prospect? No way.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

44 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Parts of 3 seasons at AAA for a top 10 prospect? No way.

Are we arguing the merits of a grievance that never existed nor was ever hinted at ?

Edited February 27, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
?

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Are we arguing the merits of a grievance that never existed nor was ever hinted at ?

When someone tries to tell me that Kopech shouldn't have been called up last year, absolutely. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

When someone tries to tell me that Kopech shouldn't have been called up last year, absolutely. 

You brought that subject up not chisox59 and all he said was well if that was the case he wouldn't be wasting service time. He never actually said he shouldn't have been brought up unless you had a previous disagreement with him where he did say that . You also were the one to bring up a grievance. So you re arguing about something that didn't happen and a grievance that probably never would have been filed had it happened. I'll bow out now. Just seems rather silly, moot. irrelevant immaterial and inconsequential for both of you.

Edited February 27, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[shipps]

The Sox FO are just going to run with this tough breaks/ bad luck injury narrative as to why their rebuild is behind a year or two. Ignore the fact that the healthy players that are involved aren’t progressing the rebuild and that they were an epic failure in FA, it’s all bad just because of injuries. 

Okay. 

[bmags]

One of the things I kept holding onto, since development isn't linear as they say, was if this year was as good for development as last year was bad, sox would be in dominant shape soon.

But we are already looking at 4 of our top prospects out until June. Dunning and Basabe both looked like players that were in that "2 months at lower level, finish at higher level" mode that may have ended in seeing the white sox. 

What could turn it around? If the infield of kannapolis plays well, that will be a group that could make us feel better. But aside from sosa, they've been snakebit by injuries. But Curbelo could easily have his micker adolfo type year, where he finally is healthy and shoots forward. Bush could be there soon, if he legitimizes his bat, it's a huge boost to the system. They are the players that can improve as they move up.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

One of the things I kept holding onto, since development isn't linear as they say, was if this year was as good for development as last year was bad, sox would be in dominant shape soon.

But we are already looking at 4 of our top prospects out until June. Dunning and Basabe both looked like players that were in that "2 months at lower level, finish at higher level" mode that may have ended in seeing the white sox. 

What could turn it around? If the infield of kannapolis plays well, that will be a group that could make us feel better. But aside from sosa, they've been snakebit by injuries. But Curbelo could easily have his micker adolfo type year, where he finally is healthy and shoots forward. Bush could be there soon, if he legitimizes his bat, it's a huge boost to the system. They are the players that can improve as they move up.

It would also be very nice for y'all to be right and Madrigal starts raking early this year, including showing extra-base power. 

[Timmy U]

Two guys who can help us feel better, imho, are Rutherford and Gonzalez.  Both capable of making a leap.

[bmags]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

It would also be very nice for y'all to be right and Madrigal starts raking early this year, including showing extra-base power. 

I am right about madrigal, but he is absolutely going to be moved aggressively and you should take that into account if he's in birmingham. 

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Timmy U said:

Two guys who can help us feel better, imho, are Rutherford and Gonzalez.  Both capable of making a leap.

That's true, I've been wait and see on Gonzalez due to the white sox slowplaying him due to logjam ahead of him, no fault of his own.

Fun thing about Gonzalez - go check out his first half season post college draft. Wasn't good. No power, poor obp. It isn't gospel.

[he gone.]

This is why I don't care how many times I say it & get roasted for it as being a negative nancy .. we will not be seriously competing for a WS title until at least 2022. I don't care if that is 7 years into a rebuild and that's too long.. it's just the truth. I follow enough baseball and enough prospects to know that the Astros and Cubs were the major exception to the rule. Most of the time you run into situations like this.. where Giolito and Moncada don't hit. Look back at top 100 prospects lists from 2014 and just see how many of those guys are making a championship impact. Take a step back... here's the recipe for success.

 

3-4 MAJOR PROSPECT HITS. This is hitting on Bregman, Bryant, Rizzo, Altuve, Springer, Correa. You need these guys and you need 3-4 of them on your team.

5-7 MAJOR PROSPECTS that turn into everyday contributing players: This is the Schwarbers, Happs, Tyler White, Lance McCullers of the world. In our case this is Lopez, Moncada, Anderson. I think we actually are trending fine in this direction. We have guys who can play baseball fine. The guys who do things right, but have warts.

2-3 MAJOR FREE AGENT OR TRADE GUYS: for the cubs this was Lester. This is Verlander. Cole. Chapman. Brantley.

2-3 MAJOR FREE AGENTS that turn out to be contributing players: Darvish, Heyward, Reddick, Gattis, Gurriel

3-5 MAJOR PROSPECTS at the ready so that you can either trade for your last pieces or fill in injuries: Kyle Tucker, Forest Whitley, Josh James. Cubs? They are a little barron - but this was Eloy in the past, Torres, etc. Hence, I think the Astros did their rebuild a bit better.

 

So if you go down that list, and we're a bit early.

3-4 MAJOR PROSPECT HITS: we're confident or hopeful in Eloy. I'd say the same with Kopech. Outside of that? I'd say Madrigal or Moncada have the best shot, but think we're on the outside looking in on actual MAJOR SUPERSTAR hits. Robert?

5-7 MAJOR PROSPECTS that turn into every day guys. I think we are more than set with a pipeline of these guys. I think Robert will be Jorge Soler. just my opinion. I think Rutherford can be a nice 4 OF. I think Adolfo can be a nice UTIL of OF, 1B, DH, but not necessarily a starter. Lopez a nice #4 starter. Madrigal and Moncada should be able to man the IF. Anderson likewise. We have a plethora of just above replacement level players on the horizon that should give us 80 win seasons.

2-3 MAJOR FA or TRADES: Well.. we struck out on Machado, not going after Harper. No Arenado. I think it's pretty obvious we are not going to do well here. So it'd have to be trades. which means we need evne more depth

3-5 MAJOR PROSPECTS: to use as trade bait or keep the system going. We may think we have good depth now, but I don't think we're even close. If we were to be good in 2-3 years I don't think people would be knocking down the door for Steele Walker or Hansen or Burger.

 

So as I see it... we have a TON of holes, a FO that doesn't and won't sign FA for the proper market value, and a FO that still doesn't have the depth to trade for star players when necessary. I see a bunch of 75-84 win seasons in our future ... I see something like 68 wins this year.... 74 next year .... 80 in 2021 ..... 85 in 2022. And frankly I don't have the faith in Hahn, JR, or Kenny to go out there and spend CORRECTLY on FA or make trades when necessary. or to draft well.

[Chisoxmb35]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You brought that subject up not chisox59 and all he said was well if that was the case he wouldn't be wasting service time. He never actually said he shouldn't have been brought up unless you had a previous disagreement with him where he did say that . You also were the one to bring up a grievance. So you re arguing about something that didn't happen and a grievance that probably never would have been filed had it happened. I'll bow out now. Just seems rather silly, mute. irrelevant immaterial and inconsequential for both of you.

It's a moot point, not mute. Not important, but that one always bugs me lol.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You brought that subject up not chisox59 and all he said was well if that was the case he wouldn't be wasting service time. He never actually said he shouldn't have been brought up unless you had a previous disagreement with him where he did say that . You also were the one to bring up a grievance. So you re arguing about something that didn't happen and a grievance that probably never would have been filed had it happened. I'll bow out now. Just seems rather silly, mute. irrelevant immaterial and inconsequential for both of you.

I believe SS2k and I have discussed it before.  I personally was super against promoting Kopech when they did last season (as was at least a portion of this board).  Obviously once he was up I was excited to watch him. The decision was just exacerbated to the 10th degree when he blew out his elbow.  IMO, it was a dumb move.  I would have happily waited until May 2019 to watch him pitch.  He could file a grievance all he wanted - he wasn't going to win IMO.  Now I do agree that based on his previous 15 starts or whatever he was definitely ready for the bigs - but he was pitching meaningless games and wasting very meaningful service time for like 5-6 starts.  I didn't like it.

Now who knows if he blows out his elbow in his final handful of starts in AAA.  Maybe he does it this winter, or in ST.  Maybe it doesn't happen until May 2019 when he's pitching in the bigs.  No one knows.  It is what it is now.  But one thing is certain - the way it played out literally could not have been worse for the Sox.  

 

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I believe SS2k and I have discussed it before.  I personally was super against promoting Kopech when they did last season (as was at least a portion of this board).  Obviously once he was up I was excited to watch him. The decision was just exacerbated to the 10th degree when he blew out his elbow.  IMO, it was a dumb move.  I would have happily waited until May 2019 to watch him pitch.  He could file a grievance all he wanted - he wasn't going to win IMO.  Now I do agree that based on his previous 15 starts or whatever he was definitely ready for the bigs - but he was pitching meaningless games and wasting very meaningful service time for like 5-6 starts.  I didn't like it.

Now who knows if he blows out his elbow in his final handful of starts in AAA.  Maybe he does it this winter, or in ST.  Maybe it doesn't happen until May 2019 when he's pitching in the bigs.  No one knows.  It is what it is now.  But one thing is certain - the way it played out literally could not have been worse for the Sox.  

 

Except for it happening in May or June and possibly missing 2 seasons instead of just one plus.  Like what they had to feel their way through with Adolfo, or the Angels with Ohtani.

Edited February 27, 2019 by caulfield12

[OneDog847]

1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

This is why I don't care how many times I say it & get roasted for it as being a negative nancy .. we will not be seriously competing for a WS title until at least 2022. I don't care if that is 7 years into a rebuild and that's too long.. it's just the truth. I follow enough baseball and enough prospects to know that the Astros and Cubs were the major exception to the rule. Most of the time you run into situations like this.. where Giolito and Moncada don't hit. Look back at top 100 prospects lists from 2014 and just see how many of those guys are making a championship impact. Take a step back... here's the recipe for success.

 

3-4 MAJOR PROSPECT HITS. This is hitting on Bregman, Bryant, Rizzo, Altuve, Springer, Correa. You need these guys and you need 3-4 of them on your team.

5-7 MAJOR PROSPECTS that turn into everyday contributing players: This is the Schwarbers, Happs, Tyler White, Lance McCullers of the world. In our case this is Lopez, Moncada, Anderson. I think we actually are trending fine in this direction. We have guys who can play baseball fine. The guys who do things right, but have warts.

2-3 MAJOR FREE AGENT OR TRADE GUYS: for the cubs this was Lester. This is Verlander. Cole. Chapman. Brantley.

2-3 MAJOR FREE AGENTS that turn out to be contributing players: Darvish, Heyward, Reddick, Gattis, Gurriel

3-5 MAJOR PROSPECTS at the ready so that you can either trade for your last pieces or fill in injuries: Kyle Tucker, Forest Whitley, Josh James. Cubs? They are a little barron - but this was Eloy in the past, Torres, etc. Hence, I think the Astros did their rebuild a bit better.

 

So if you go down that list, and we're a bit early.

3-4 MAJOR PROSPECT HITS: we're confident or hopeful in Eloy. I'd say the same with Kopech. Outside of that? I'd say Madrigal or Moncada have the best shot, but think we're on the outside looking in on actual MAJOR SUPERSTAR hits. Robert?

5-7 MAJOR PROSPECTS that turn into every day guys. I think we are more than set with a pipeline of these guys. I think Robert will be Jorge Soler. just my opinion. I think Rutherford can be a nice 4 OF. I think Adolfo can be a nice UTIL of OF, 1B, DH, but not necessarily a starter. Lopez a nice #4 starter. Madrigal and Moncada should be able to man the IF. Anderson likewise. We have a plethora of just above replacement level players on the horizon that should give us 80 win seasons.

2-3 MAJOR FA or TRADES: Well.. we struck out on Machado, not going after Harper. No Arenado. I think it's pretty obvious we are not going to do well here. So it'd have to be trades. which means we need evne more depth

3-5 MAJOR PROSPECTS: to use as trade bait or keep the system going. We may think we have good depth now, but I don't think we're even close. If we were to be good in 2-3 years I don't think people would be knocking down the door for Steele Walker or Hansen or Burger.

 

So as I see it... we have a TON of holes, a FO that doesn't and won't sign FA for the proper market value, and a FO that still doesn't have the depth to trade for star players when necessary. I see a bunch of 75-84 win seasons in our future ... I see something like 68 wins this year.... 74 next year .... 80 in 2021 ..... 85 in 2022. And frankly I don't have the faith in Hahn, JR, or Kenny to go out there and spend CORRECTLY on FA or make trades when necessary. or to draft well.

I agree with what you are selling, Mr. Anderson. The rebuild as currently constructed is just treading water. There does not appear to be any forward momentum. 

The depth of the Sox farm will be greatly tested here going forward, even more so as injuries to prospects continue to mount. It's unfortunate but 2019 and most likely 2020 should just be tank years. The Sox need to continue to stock the farm. We are nowhere close to competing for anything worthwhile besides draft pick position.