Giolito's latest tweaks

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, peppers312 said:

i sometimes HATE coming to this board and read people talk shit about our guys. Giolito has found something positive in his pitching, he's having success with it, so i just don't understand why Sox fans can't be happy about it and support what he's accomplished since coming back from the hamstring injury. 

 

i understand how difficult it is to be a Sox fan, but a lot of you SERIOUSLY need therapy. ?

Uhhhh have you noticed the date that this thread and most of the posts started?

On the previous page, it literally jumps from "March 1" to "5 hours ago" (earlier today almost 3 months later).

Edited May 24, 2019 by soxfan2014

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

45 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Glasnow and Giolito can not be compared at all. Everytime glasnow was sent down he was the best pitcher in the minor leagues - even as he struggled with command in the big leagues. Giolitos stuff got worse and worse as technology grew and he got to the point where he was flat out bad in AAA.

This whole the stuff was there thing with giolito is nonsense. Glasnow got swinging strikes and strike outs - he just walked people. Giolito was fooling no one - generated bottom 1% swinging strikes and had a k-rate under 6.5 per 9. Those are horrible numbers that do not scream great stuff. His velocity was way down, his breaking stuff had no bite and he was confusing no one.

Everyone in professional baseball has talent. Giolito was broken and envisioning anything near TOR outcomes was illogical at the time based on the data we had but the kid has proved everyone (but for Jack, kudos Jack) wrong so far. Good for him.

Huh? giolito’s minor league numbers were fantastic thru 2016. Even when he struggled a bit in AAA in 2017, he was still striking out more than 9 guys per 9 IP (walks were his biggest issue there). You don’t get to where he got in 2017 without great stuff. Clearly, that was missing last year and was probably a combination of both mechanical and mental issues but the underlying stuff didn’t just suddenly vanish at age 23/24. His control issues were so bad last year that he was likely aiming the ball rather than releasing it freely and confidently. That can easily knock a few mph off one’s velocity. 

[peppers312]

23 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Uhhhh have you noticed the date that this thread and most of the posts started?

On the previous page, it literally jumps from "March 1" to "5 hours ago" (earlier today almost 3 months later).

good point. LOL

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Huh? giolito’s minor league numbers were fantastic thru 2016. Even when he struggled a bit in AAA in 2017, he was still striking out more than 9 guys per 9 IP (walks were his biggest issue there). You don’t get to where he got in 2017 without great stuff. Clearly, that was missing last year and was probably a combination of both mechanical and mental issues but the underlying stuff didn’t just suddenly vanish at age 23/24. His control issues were so bad last year that he was likely aiming the ball rather than releasing it freely and confidently. That can easily knock a few mph off one’s velocity. 

What does 2016 matter?

He had a 4.5 ERA with a 1.41 WHIP in AAA with the Sox. Glasnow had ERA's under 2 with 13 k's per 9 and sub 1 WHIP's in AAA when he was struggling in the big leagues. 

His problem last year was not just throwing strikes. It was throwing quality pitches period. He generated no swings and misses. The two of them just can't be compared.

Glasnow had to fix ONE thing to become a star. Giolito had to fix about 20.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, peppers312 said:

good point. LOL

LOL all good.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What does 2016 matter?

He had a 4.5 ERA with a 1.41 WHIP in AAA with the Sox. Glasnow had ERA's under 2 with 13 k's per 9 and sub 1 WHIP's in AAA when he was struggling in the big leagues. 

His problem last year was not just throwing strikes. It was throwing quality pitches period. He generated no swings and misses. The two of them just can't be compared.

Glasnow had to fix ONE thing to become a star. Giolito had to fix about 20.

I disagree. All of Giolito’s problems stemmed from his lack of control, just like Glasnow. 2016 and prior is relevant because it shows the natural talent was always there. Unless he was injured in 2017/2018, where did the natural talent go? Did it just disappear at the tender age of 23? 

Edited May 24, 2019 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Recent quotes from Giolito from a Sporting News article:

"I put a lot of pressure on myself to live up to those expectations," he told SN. "And then when I didn't do it, instead of taking a step back, I just kept pressing more and more."

"Last year, I was having a bunch of blow-up games. Having games where I'd lose control emotionally, mentally," Giolito said. "Now I'll be in a similar situation, and it's like, 'I've been here before, I've already done all that. That doesn't help.' Let me choose to go this other direction, where I got back to my breath, reset, focus on the next pitch."

Regarding his new arm action:

"It makes the misses smaller," he said. "I miss more to the side of the plate that I'm going to instead of missing over the middle. It's cleaned up a lot of things."

From McCann:

"That's a different guy than last year," McCann said. "This year, mentally, he's able to focus on each pitch for what it is and not allow that rough start to affect his whole outing."

The physical and mental aspects of the game are intertwined. You could see the lack of command and control last year was affecting him mentally. Now that he’s been able to harness that side of his game, he’s pitching with much more confidence and pressing less as a result.

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I disagree. All of Giolito’s problems stemmed from his lack of control, just like Glasnow. 2016 and prior is relevant because it shows the natural talent was always there. Unless he was injured in 2017/2018, where did the natural go? Did it just disappear at the tender age of 23? 

Lack of control sure but also lack of stuff.  92 mph straight heater and nothing more than a show me change and average at best breaking ball.  If he completes his evolution into a TOR starter (4-6 WAR pitcher) it will be one of the most incredible stories in recent memory.

His stuff post TJ was never close to the stuff that made him the #1 overall pitching prospect -- until last night that is.  He AVERAGED 95 on his heater and touched 98.  He coupled that with a nasty tight breaking slider and more than good enough changeup while having pinpoint command of his fastball.    There are closers that don't feature that arsenal.

How he got here I'm not sure I just hope it keeps up.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I disagree. All of Giolito’s problems stemmed from his lack of control, just like Glasnow. 2016 and prior is relevant because it shows the natural talent was always there. Unless he was injured in 2017/2018, where did the natural go? Did it just disappear at the tender age of 23? 

Lack of control does not reduce your swinging strike percentage on strikes. It just doesnt. Giolito had one of the lowest k rates in baseball.

I dont know how you can compare a guy who was absolutely dominating AAA to a guy who had an ERA north of 4.5 in AAA.

Every professional baseball player has a lot of natural talent. 

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I disagree. All of Giolito’s problems stemmed from his lack of control, just like Glasnow. 2016 and prior is relevant because it shows the natural talent was always there. Unless he was injured in 2017/2018, where did the natural go? Did it just disappear at the tender age of 23? 

Giolito's problems stemmed from the Nationals messing with his mechanics. He was fighting his delivery until he shortened his arm swing this year. Not that I'm complaining, because his slider is awesome, but in 2017 he had an overhanded yellowhammer of a curveball when he came up in September.  He was generating swings and misses along with attacking with the high fastball. He learned the slider in ST 2018 and lost all feel of his curveball last year, and is just starting to get it back. It is, in my opinion, another case of fixing what isn't broken and I don't understand it. I hope he gets the feel of his curve back because it would be just another weapon to use as an out pitch vs. LHB. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Lack of control does not reduce your swinging strike percentage on strikes. It just doesnt. Giolito had one of the lowest k rates in baseball.

I dont know how you can compare a guy who was absolutely dominating AAA to a guy who had an ERA north of 4.5 in AAA.

Every professional baseball player has a lot of natural talent. 

Absolutely it does. If you are hitting corners instead of throwing the ball over the heart of the plate, your chances for a swinging strike is exponentially increased. Also, if you are ahead in the count 0-2, 1-2 rather than 2-0, 3-1 again your chances of a swinging strike are exponentially increased because the hitter can’t sit dead red. They have to be ready for anything and in defense mode with anything close to the plate.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Giolito's problems stemmed from the Nationals messing with his mechanics. He was fighting his delivery until he shortened his arm swing this year. Not that I'm complaining, because his slider is awesome, but in 2017 he had an overhanded yellowhammer of a curveball when he came up in September.  He was generating swings and misses along with attacking with the high fastball. He learned the slider in ST 2018 and lost all feel of his curveball last year, and is just starting to get it back. It is, in my opinion, another case of fixing what isn't broken and I don't understand it. I hope he gets the feel of his curve back because it would be just another weapon to use as an out pitch vs. LHB. 

Nah, he doesn't need to be messing with another breaking ball.  Just stick with the slider.  Not a fan of a starter trying to get a 4 pitch mix when they have three that are already above average.  He can learn to pitch off his heater to lefties and feature the changeup.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Absolutely it does. If you are hitting corners instead of throwing the ball over the heart of the plate, your chances for a swinging strike is exponentially increased. Also, if you are ahead in the count 0-2, 1-2 rather than 2-0, 3-1 again your chances of a swinging strike are exponentially increased because the hitter can’t sit dead red. They have to be ready for anything and in defense mode with anything close to the plate.

Swinging strike rates on strikes does not change statistically based on command. For example, robbie ray generates a lot more swinging strikes on strikes than Kyle Hendricks. One has horrible command but really good stuff (ray) and the other has great command with below average stuff (Hendricks). 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Lack of control sure but also lack of stuff.  92 mph straight heater and nothing more than a show me change and average at best breaking ball.  If he completes his evolution into a TOR starter (4-6 WAR pitcher) it will be one of the most incredible stories in recent memory.

His stuff post TJ was never close to the stuff that made him the #1 overall pitching prospect -- until last night that is.  He AVERAGED 95 on his heater and touched 98.  He coupled that with a nasty tight breaking slider and more than good enough changeup while having pinpoint command of his fastball.    There are closers that don't feature that arsenal.

How he got here I'm not sure I just hope it keeps up.

You’ve played baseball at a high level right? Anyone that has knows how much of a mental game it is. And Giolito is clearly very intelligent and likely an over thinker when he’s struggling. If he’s overthinking his every movement and “aiming” the ball in an attempt to throw more strikes it absolutely has a negative result on his pure stuff.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You’ve played baseball at a high level right? Anyone that has knows how much of a mental game it is. And Giolito is clearly very intelligent and likely an over thinker when he’s struggling. If he’s overthinking his every movement and “aiming” the ball in an attempt to throw more strikes it absolutely has a negative result on his pure stuff.

Playing baseball at a high level does not make one an authority on the mindset of all baseball players at all imo. Idk why but I am not a fan of that line of thinking.

You are talking in simplistic childhood coach speak. Giolitos problems went much further beyond one or two pinpointed issues.

Giolito was too emotional, sure.. but his stuff sucked. I am not sure why you dont want to accept that his stuff sucked. It just did. Not a single pitch he threw last year even graded out as average.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You’ve played baseball at a high level right? Anyone that has knows how much of a mental game it is. And Giolito is clearly very intelligent and likely an over thinker when he’s struggling. If he’s overthinking his every movement and “aiming” the ball in an attempt to throw more strikes it absolutely has a negative result on his pure stuff.

I played low level college and as I always say my claim to fame is going 0-3 with 3K against former Indians 7th round pick and farm hand Jim Deters who in DIII was throwing 90 from the left side with a wicked slider.

I agree completely that he was lost mentally last year and that the mental side of performance is critical.

Edited May 24, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Playing baseball at a high level does not make one an authority on the mindset of all baseball players at all imo. 

You are talking in simplistic childhood coach speak. Giolitos problems went much further beyond one or two pinpointed issues.

Giolito was too emotional, sure.. but his stuff sucked. I am not sure why you dont want to accept that his stuff sucked. It just did. Not a single pitch he threw last year even graded out as average.

Both are true and it's a vicious cycle.  His mind and his body were not in sync.  You could see his melt downs mentally manifest in his delivery issues.  You could tell he was over thinking it and when that happens with any swing/motion in athletics it's not going to go well.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Playing baseball at a high level does not make one an authority on the mindset of all baseball players at all imo. 

You are talking in simplistic childhood coach speak. 

Giolito was too emotional, sure.. but his stuff sucked. I am not sure why you dont want to accept that his stuff sucked. It just did. Not a single pitch he threw last year even graded out as average.

And neither does simply pointing to advanced metrics. If you played baseball at a high level, you understand how fragile the mental side of the game can be. You say Giolito’s stuff sucked last year but why did it suck? I believe much of it was tied to his mental state/lack of confidence and conviction in executing his pitches. This was a direct result of working through mechanical issues and diminished control/command. It’s all related and a domino effect.

[raBBit]

On 2/28/2019 at 2:20 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

4 offseasons 4 delivery tweaks and overhauls. Giolito is finished.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, raBBit said:

 

Heck if you predicted this pal, then a hat tip to you. 

I have no problem being wrong about things. That's life. Only way to learn and evolve is to be shown new outcomes and possibilities. I appreciate when I'm wrong - no better learning experience than being brutally wrong.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, raBBit said:

 

? ??

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And neither does simply pointing to advanced metrics. If you played baseball at a high level, you understand how fragile the mental side of the game can be. You say Giolito’s stuff sucked last year but why did it suck? I believe much of it was tied to his mental state/lack of confidence and conviction in executing his pitches. This was a direct result of working through mechanical issues and diminished control/command. It’s all related and a domino effect.

I think its safe to say I played baseball at a higher level than 99.9% of the population but I dont use that crutch very often if ever - maybe to talk about locker room chemistry and leadership and things like that... but when it comes to evaluating changes and etc within the game, much of that is science and mathematical. As I noted, the change in his repertoire was analytically driven and likely as much of a driving force towards his improvements as anything else.

His stuff sucked because mechanical he was a disaster. Your mind doesnt decrease your fastball velocity.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Both are true and it's a vicious cycle.  His mind and his body were not in sync.  You could see his melt downs mentally manifest in his delivery issues.  You could tell he was over thinking it and when that happens with any swing/motion in athletics it's not going to go well.

Absolutely and I'd argue he's still a bit too emotional for my liking. It's ok because things are going well, but he still wears it on his sleeve a bit too much. He's young, exuberant and excited as hell so I understand... but composure is so much more important for a pitcher than a position player.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think its safe to say I played baseball at a higher level than 99.9% of the population but I dont use that crutch very often if ever - maybe to talk about locker room chemistry and leadership and things like that... but when it comes to evaluating changes and etc within the game, much of that is science and mathematical. As I noted, the change in his repertoire was analytically driven and likely as much of a driving force towards his improvements as anything else.

If true, then you are severely underrating the mental aspect of the game and how that can affect performance, something Giolito was clearly struggling with last year. These are human beings, not robots. His mechanical issues compounded with his mental issues and resulted in the mess we witnessed for much of last season.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

If true, then you are severely underrating the mental aspect of the game and how that can affect performance, something Giolito was clearly struggling with last year. These are human beings, not robots. His mechanical issues compounded with his mental issues and resulted in the mess we witnessed for much of last season.

I'm not under rating anything. It's important, sure, but physical tools can cure a lot of mental issues. If he was a mental case throwing 97 still (last year) with the same slider hes found this year then he's first or second year trevor bauer - 4.3-4.5 ERA with 9ks per 9 and flashes of brilliance. Or he's javy Vazquez. Last year he was the worst pitcher playing major league baseball. 

That is not as simplistic as his mind wasn't right. Nothing was right. I agree fully he was mentally broken as much as he was physically broken, but you seem to think his issues were 90% mental when they just weren't. It would be like me blaming my MVC failures on being mentally unwell.... no, people were just a lot better than me. Sure, failure brings you down but if you have the tools physically you will be bailed out plenty of times.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run